No Drop item rot on Raids :)

Status
Not open for further replies.
lol I'm retarded

philt, read the fucking thread and the posts in it before you continue. Take a second, honestly. You've quoted Wiz over and over, but it doesn't look like you've read what he's said. Instead you bitch and bitch about how you won't be getting loot. You haven't addressed any point I've made, because it 'doesn't have bearing' WHEN IT FIXES THE FUCKING PROBLEM. If your guild leaders would RECRUIT classes they needed, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO BOX that fucking class later on, and you can stop bitching and complaining here and making personal attacks, but no, you just go and call me retarded. I'm trying to show you the way buddy. Sorry that the fact that your guild is low on X class isn't the servers problem but is infact, yours.


And as for all of you saying we're coming in here and shitting on your thread because it doesn't effect us, you're all dead fucking wrong. Our raids (get this, oh god) ARE getting full. Our raids (oh man) don't have every single class in it. So guess what happens, we have to have a slot taken up by X class in the raid, because Y player has other things to deal with besides logging in, and that slot could be used for a healer or a rogue that logs in later, so we could be in the position where we have to say "Oh fuck, do we log on a necro for the possibility of a Ritual Frag drop, or do we let this rogue come raid?" Oh wow look at that guys, it DOES effect our progression, and more directly than most of you guys bitching and moaning about all of this.
 
This thread is pretty rapidly developing into a shitstorm, and I had some part in it, so I apologize.

I'm not going to lock it, but let me just say that if the thread doesn't clean up and lighten up a bit, it will get locked.
 
Jose has made some pretty valid points so far, would be nice if the people flaming him would actually read the post and reply to the points he's made rather than belittling him / his guild because you don't like what he's saying.
 
The only "points" Jose made was "If you are affected by this changes, your guild sucks".

Clearly a valid statement in a discussion.
 
No, thats not what I'm saying at all, thats just all you're reading.

Let me recap: If your guild is low on certain needed classes, they need to recruit said class. If they recruit effectively you won't have to log off your main for a botted clerics/wizard/rogue etc etc. Timezones and locations can make this a bit harder sure, but not impossible. If you can find some hardcore people who will raid every day at your time this change won't effect you as much. Sure, there will still be times when you can't get a wizard on to save your life, or you just need ONE more cleric, and in those situations yeah, this change blows nuts, but you shouldn't ever have to log both of your characters off (I'm assuming you DC all the time) for a raid to get things done. And sure some guilds have a high amount of memebers, but just because you can get 38-42 people in a zone doesn't mean they all deserve loot. Raids are designed around 36 people, and most of the time you won't need that full 36 to get the job done.

And Gea, can you not read at all? Do you not see where I said this change does effect me and my guild in a very direct way? Or are you a little too busy acting like philt and only concerned about how this effects you.

Regardless, I'm done here. If people don't understand how recruiting could change a lot, and end a lot of complaining, then oh well. Have fun logging your bots in and missing loot.
 
Mythryn said:
And Gea, can you not read at all? Do you not see where I said this change does effect me and my guild in a very direct way? Or are you a little too busy acting like philt and only concerned about how this effects you.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Asking me if I can read. IF YOU SIR read anything I wrote other than my latest post, you would already know that this changes DO NOT AFFECT ME AT ALL.

So thanks for leaving the thread finally :D
 
Enough of the childish attacks. The thread has had one warning already. Keep it on topic, or keep it off the board.
 
Everybody needs to calm the hell down, especially you long timers - you should know better. Otherwise, the hammer comes down. If you're too frustrated with each other to discuss this in a civilized manner, discussion will cease.
 
Mythryn said:
If you can find some hardcore people who will raid every day at your time this change won't effect you as much.
Regardless, I'm done here. If people don't understand how recruiting could change a lot, and end a lot of complaining, then oh well. Have fun logging your bots in and missing loot.
Click to expand...

There's a whole other part to the reasons for botting then just a missing class. Lots of times we're trying to do our thing without an enchanter, or bard. We *are* recruting those classes and have closed recruitment for other classes we're doing fine with.

I'm currently botting a Warrior because there's such a huge gap in armor that drops pre-raid or can be made, then the raid level gear. My trouble is our main tank - or who will be, doesn't have the AC/HP to tank what we're fighting yet. Before you tell me we shouldn't be there then, help me find solutions cuz i'm fresh out of them. Using another tank allows us a *chance* using the rest of our raid force to upgrade just a little at the lower level raids. (DHK, DFS)

I've brought in more experianced raiders to join us and give advice, I've put all my time, energy, and resources into this guild and it's main group to achieve our goals. I will mention those for you to clarify my point.

We aren't trying to be the biggest or badest, we're not trying to recruit well established players from other guilds to fill the gaps. We're trying to enter the raid level game with the characters we've leveled and worked so hard on, without (You know I love you guys...) Selling out to a big raiding guild to accomplish our goals. Botting a stronger character is the lesser of the evils for me, and anything we can do without him is done without him.

We're working hard on our main characters and trying to do this with as much pride and honor as we can hold onto while at the same time constantly asking for guidance, trying and failing over and over with targets we "should" be able to handle, and then fighting battles like this one.

How do I gear up my guild and not lose them to guilds that can gear them up... after we're putting in our time and effort we come up against walls that were built to keep someone else from doing something different altogether. It's not a matter of loot that would rot for us - it doesn't. It's a matter of letting our own people loot something for their main/2box that they're normally on. Rather a *chance* to roll with the others of the same class to get loot for their main/2box chars after they've logged on a bot to help us try a new tactic.

Until we figure out what strategies and/or combination of people will work against certain things we're going to be changing out characters and bots. Empire doesn't want hard core people who will raid everyday no matter what time zone - we want, and have a dedicated group of people who want to figure out these new targets and advance steadily until raiding everyday would be anything less then exhausting (yes it is exhilirating and fun too. :D ) Maybe then we'll be in a situation that closesly resembles what most people here have been talking about. We just want the chance to do this thing by our own trial and error and still have something to show at the end of the day.
 
shebearcub said:
I'm currently botting a Warrior because there's such a huge gap in armor that drops pre-raid or can be made, then the raid level gear. My trouble is our main tank - or who will be, doesn't have the AC/HP to tank what we're fighting yet. Before you tell me we shouldn't be there then, help me find solutions cuz i'm fresh out of them. Using another tank allows us a *chance* using the rest of our raid force to upgrade just a little at the lower level raids. (DHK, DFS)
Click to expand...

A warrior with no raid gear can tank the lower-level raid targets in both of those zones (Revelation did it with all home-grown characters). Sure, you can't 1 group them, but with enough healing and DPS (also pre-raid geared) you can make progress, farm some armor and items, and be able to do harder targets, and the easier targets with less. It is not necessary to rent-a-tank if you truly want to experience natural progression and are willing to recruit enough entry-level people to do it (not that you need a full raid; Revelation has yet to hit the raid cap). If you don't, then rent-a-tank might be the way to go. Neither way is right or wrong, as different people have different goals; I'm just saying both ways are entirely possible.
 
Mythryn said:
Sure, there will still be times when you can't get a wizard on to save your life, or you just need ONE more cleric, and in those situations yeah, this change blows nuts
Click to expand...

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!

If it were a simple matter of cherry-picking the right players out of the newbie tree, there would be no problem. But the sad fact is there arent enough ideal cherries to go around. This isnt a 1,000 player server, you have to make due with what's around you. And in this environment, this change "blows nuts".
 
Its really just that simple. So much clutter and straying from the point with abstract examples. Thats all it really comes down to.
 
Im a tad concerned about this change now.

I was in elds farming some faction items when Naoma my 2box druid went LD I logged her back in and tried to loot some of the old corpses. It said I couldnt loot a no drop item from a corpse I didnt kill or something along those lines. However in fact I did kill them prior to going LD, they died before I went LD. The guard i killed while Naoma was LD, Naoma couldnt loot either. This bug seems rather rare as its the first time its happened or ive heard of it happening. However Im worried that should it happen on a raid it would cause problems.
 
phlit said:
For the rest of us who are effected by this change, how about you let us discuss it? Your genius idea of not boting under the current situation has - get this - been figured out by human fetuses. It's just that it has no bearing on the discussion. None. At all..
Click to expand...

I may be confused coming in late and all but if it has no bearing on the discussion why did you bring it up before jose did? please explain...

phlit said:
I'm sorry to say this, but Wiz, man.... you're idea of fair imo has a lot to be desired today. Let's remember for a second *THIS IS A GAME FOR FUN*. Ahem. Logging on a 'bot' to replace your main because the raid needs it is very nice of people... It sometimes allows raids to happen when otherwise they couldn't. This is, after all, why we're allowed to DC, right? (groups/raids whatever). Where the problem here lies is that Wiz says 'if you are there to kill a mob' and he means X toon. For me, you should mean X person; with the little proviso that X person's toon who wasn't there who wants to loot an item is of the necessary level so that if they had been there they *could* have helped... they just might not have made they crucial difference between win/lose that botting X class made...
Click to expand...

And as for the repeated statement that it doesnt effect us, you have no idea what your talking about. Jose's first post outlined one very real way in which it does. I myself am not on either side of the fence for this change, i dont love it and i dont hate it. You however refuse to acknowledge any points made by people on the side other than your own. So don't bitch about people shitting up this thread because they don't see eye to eye with you and do infact bring up valid counterpoints that you can not find a response to.(this goes for everyone flaming.)


P.S. Jose never said your guild sucked and you dont need a perfect raid to beat encounters. But i have to say over recruiting is probally worse than lacking a few classes, not to say your guild may not have had much choice but its just my opinion.
 
I'm not quite sure how to make this understood more than I already have; so I'll make this final 'explanation' as simple as possible:
This change was meant for one reason, which it semi-covers - though far from totally. What it also does, 'unintentionally', is cause several problems in several other situations. I provided an example or two of how it effects me; several other people chirped in with their own problems.

'Our' combined argument seems to me to be that the change is far more restrictive and annoying for people doing various other things than it is for the people trying to do what it was the change was intended to stop.

This is the problem.
The reason such 'gems'('solutions') as 'well recruit x people' and so on are irrelevant should be perfectly clear... It's not addressing the cause, it's providing a 'fix', and one which is 'meh' at best, the arguments for and against aren't worth going in to. And obviously, only a fix for one situation.
It's not the core issue... Do we get this yet? The issue is:
"the change is far more restrictive and annoying for people doing various other things than it is for the people trying to do what it was the change was intended to stop."
I won't repeat it again, don't worry. I hope it's clear by now for those having trouble understanding (Jose particularly, Zhak and Xandion also, possibly others who haven't spoken up.)

If this can't be understood such 'tags' as 'retard' are entirely justified.
 
No, no, phlit. I'm not understanding your point, either. And when you start saying that although everybody else disagrees with you, that makes them all retards and you're the only genious here, you start looking more than a little foolish :/

What it comes down to is that unless you often have more than 36 people logged on for your raid, you'll never have to worry about not getting loot on your main. If you've got less than 36, tag your main for the raid, leave them at the entrance, and log them off. You can still log on to get loot. Considering that the practice of actually logging your main isn't a HUGE and very widespread issue (As Adalus said, he's never seen more than 4/raid, and that was a LOT), this is a small annoyance. Perhaps larger if you're the one doing the character juggling, but still small overall. It's annoying yes. But, if you want loot on a character that's not helping kill stuff, then yes, it should be (at the very least) annoying.

While it is true that there are some guilds that DO have a problem with having more than 36 men raiding, There are a few things to keep in mind. For one, I can hardly see a 36 man raid killing a mob that drops ROT loot. If that's the case, they need to kill harder stuff. If it's a mob being killed for the rare drop, then clearly the mob has been farmed so hard that you shouldn't under any circumstances need 36 men to kill it, much less the perfectly balanced 36 man raid that is the result of forcing people to log their mains to bring on bots. I could continue, but Adalus summed it up perfectly:

Thinkmeats said:
I'd think that awareness of what the mob drops combined with reasonable (that is, not ridiculously high) attendance rates and common sense in who to ask to log off would pretty much take care of this problem. Other complaints might be valid, I just don't think this particular one will be.
Click to expand...

To sum: Annoying? a little. Restrictive? Only if you're guild is too big and unbalanced for itself, and then only a little bit.

I wish I could find the thread response to the Relic Changes, where I was convinced it would be the end of my world. What it came down to in the end was that if things aren't "fair" for my "main," then there is a problem with they way my guild is running things, not a problem in the way the server is running things. You or your guild will find a workaround, and I promise it won't be as painful as you think it will be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom