No Drop item rot on Raids :)

[Wiz]

I'm going by what people say. You say this regards *only* people 'following' raids to loot items? Well, this doesn't happen on PR raids. Apparently not on Ruin raids. This leaves, Forsaken as the only other 'high' end guild?

You do have access to such stats, so why not give us a little more detail about exactly what's going on and why such measures are needed, so we can understand better and propose more suitable solutions than those already mentioned...

If the problem is simply gear going down to lower levels, then a req'd level *to loot* might be appropriate? Reduce the 20levels below to 0? Something like this? But then, this seems very obvious, so I presume there's more to it than that... But as you say, you're the one with all the statistical data and a complete picture of what's happening... So share a little and we can try to help, or at least understand? Atm, I think we can agree that these measures seem more than a little draconian, from the picture 'we've' painted for ourselves...

It's not just a matter of "Lower levels", a freshly level 65 with 10AAs should not be able to get cmal 3-4 gear simply by logging in and grabbing it.

Look, it's very simple. I would actually like to make it impossible for raids to keep raid tagged alts logged out to loot the stuff, since it only leads to alt twinking, but it would end up punishing some poor guy going LD in the fight. This method gets rid of most of the gear mudflation by making it a hassle to alt-loot, and making scavenging impossible. It's a good solution to what was a seriously growing problem.

The problem was that the amount of tmap, raid and other NO DROP gear flowing down to characters who should not have a chance at getting it was seriously on the rise (according to inventory queries ran and statistics collected), and removing required levels would not have been possible without this change because it'd get even worse.

 

[Zurash]

Since this seems to be the main thrust behind the change, how about making all high end loot level 65 required. Everyone I know that goes on raids is 65 anyway, including alts, and this WILL stop lower levels from looting.

No cheating, no arguing, no sneaking or 'raidstalking', or even an invite by those that killed the mob will ever let a low level get gear again. I think this would be a very simple fix if its mudflation to lower levels that this was intended to stop. I also doubt that anyone that has been affected by this change would raise an argument against such a solution.

 

[Bone]

I cannot say that im in love with the idea of things rotting because you cant bring an alt or a 2box for it now. However this change would most likely drive guilds to focus more on mains, less on 2boxes. More on raiding in zones where loot wont rot. Really I know it sucks that my lvl 1 cant loot a buncha prison loot but this is a good change for the game.

That being said. In order for this to work the raid problems need to be ironed out.

I cant believe there is really so much dragging of heels about a change that means " people who helped kill the mob get loot"

 

[phlit]

It seems a bit of a contradiction to me to remove required levels but insist upon a person being in a raid/group in order to loot a no-drop item (no required level to use, but in effect, required to loot.

Clearly any 'lowbie' (in the context of a particular raidmob/tmap difficulty) shouldn't 'deserve' an item from a mob/raid that they don't/can't contribute to...

As you say, the current 'solution' simply makes it harder/more of a hassle, not impossible. At a pretty big price imo.

Perhaps have required levels on no drop stuff and recommended levels on droppable stuff? This seems to be where the problem stems from. And this was unclear until now, I'd say...

So, is it possible to have NO DROP loot required level/AAs to loot it/equip it, and droppable loot 'recommended level'? Would that sort the problem?

For me personally, on raids I'll sometimes drop my main and play a puller, if it's needed. My boxed toon is a chain cleric, so I can't drop it. So, presuming I can't leave my main in the raid, or the raid gets bugged, or whatever, I then can't loot on my main should I get lucky enough to get a drop. My main is probably better AAd than any puller I'll play... I also play my main on the fair majority of raids... If and when I drop my main on a raid, I'm still 100% of the opinion that I 'deserve' any loot I should be awarded for my main...

It's not just me that this effects, though - sometimes other guildiees will bot a cleric/ench/shm because these are pretty necessary classes for any raid - and them doing this is a huge help for the whole raid. I don't think they should be 'punished' by not being able to loot on their mains because they've helped the whole raid out by botting a necessary class for us... If people can't get loot on their mains because they've botted another toon for us, then I/we can't rightly ask (or accept the offer) of anyone to bot another class... - this would mean, sometimes, raids can't happen, or fail.

I don't think that situation is at all fair. I also understand the whole mudflation happening. What I'm asking for is an alternative solution to the one currently implemented, because of what appears to be to me the obvious and unfair flaws...

 

[Tempus]

If you have to drop your main to bot a "insert class here" you are implying that without you doing so the fight/encounter would not be winnable the other way around. That being the case if you played your main you would not have won the fight, and thus no one would've gotten loot. I think people are confusing their guild loot policies with server loot policies. Also, Balthor makes a valid point, this change makes it so that if you participate in the raid/group that wins you get the right to loot. That seems fair to me.

 

[phlit]

If you have to drop your main to bot a "insert class here" you are implying that without you doing so the fight/encounter would not be winnable the other way around. That being the case if you played your main you would not have won the fight, and thus no one would've gotten loot. I think people are confusing their guild loot policies with server loot policies. Also, Balthor makes a valid point, this change makes it so that if you participate in the raid/group that wins you get the right to loot. That seems fair to me.

This is a valid point; but: in the example I gave, where I personally log in a puller, this doesn't effect the named fight, only getting there... I could have my main then CoHd from where ever he is to the raid, join up, and kill the named.... but this is a big hassle...

If the policy is to change to suddenly be so extremely harsh (which I think this policy is) - then I think GuiardoTuneweaver is right in saying "Allowing it, but making it a hassle just to be a hassle in a game designed for fun doesn't seem to make much sense to me."

 

[Waldoff]

What about making it so you can have 40 people in a raid instead of 36? This makes it so people can still log in another toon if they are needed and get loot, but still makes it an insane hassle to equip your alts.

Reverting back to required lvls wouldnt be too bad an idea either imho

 

[Haphesto]

If you have to drop your main to bot a "insert class here" you are implying that without you doing so the fight/encounter would not be winnable the other way around. That being the case if you played your main you would not have won the fight, and thus no one would've gotten loot.

Yea....but remember this is a game that is supposed to be fun? You sound so detatched, like someone who hasn't actually played SoD in a while. We know some classes in SoD are more valuable to raids than others, yet people initially create what they would enjoy playing. That means that the random mix of classes available in a guild every night dont always create an ideal raid force. Preventing a raiding guild from raiding creates a lot of sad pandas. Making a raid happen creates fun for your fellow players, and it's a sacrifice many players gladly make. This recent change prevents that person from advancing their real character, their alter-ego. There ceases the fun.

This is a hardass policy that creates more problem than it fixes. Re-institute level requirements, tighten the Mob Level -- Player Level loot requirement to 10, make OOCing rotting gear a bannable or jailable offense. Anything but this horribly abrasive new loot system.

 

[shebearcub]

It's not just a matter of "Lower levels", a freshly level 65 with 10AAs should not be able to get cmal 3-4 gear simply by logging in and grabbing it.

Look, it's very simple. I would actually like to make it impossible for raids to keep raid tagged alts logged out to loot the stuff, since it only leads to alt twinking, but it would end up punishing some poor guy going LD in the fight. This method gets rid of most of the gear mudflation by making it a hassle to alt-loot, and making scavenging impossible. It's a good solution to what was a seriously growing problem.

The problem was that the amount of tmap, raid and other NO DROP gear flowing down to characters who should not have a chance at getting it was seriously on the rise (according to inventory queries ran and statistics collected), and removing required levels would not have been possible without this change because it'd get even worse.

I think that the suggestion to make no drop loot required level and droppable loot suggested level is a good one.

I went to Cmal 3 with some of my ...stronger friends and did my job as a pad healer well, contributed to the group, learned a little about a new zone and had fun.

So in my mind, someone who shouldn't have got that kind of loot would have to have their hand held by stronger players to get it anyway - or in priest classes play a different role in a group to get there, and I don't see these changes as solving that kind of problem.

That same group of people could keep using me as their Pad healer and I'd get geared up a little faster and this new system won't have even put a hiccup in the progression. (I didn't loot anything btw. and would have only taken something if it would rot anyway since I was the baby of the group, but I guess that gets into personal standards and group etiquette.)

Please keep in mind that the following idea would is only being suggested to be applicable to no drop loot. Droppable gear has a good set up with the new vendor prices and suggested levels. I know that this suggestion is far more complicated and definately long term solution as opposed to a quick fix to the complaints heard so far... but on the majority of the loot I've seen this could be possible. (were this example, in fact no drop)

BLAZING CROWN
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: HEAD
AC: 8
Effect: Taraztu's Healing Flames (Must Wear Clicky, 2.0)
Focus Effect: Mana Conservation IV
WIS: +8 INT: +8 CHA: +8
SV Fire: +17
WT: 0.4 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

The focus effect on this item is mana conservation IV, according to the wiki it gives an 8% manna reduction in cost for your spells.

There's an AA, Spell casting mastery with 3 levels to it. So to equip the blazing crown you'd have to have spent 2AA's to get the first point in spell casting mastery.

Each level higher of manna conservation V, VI etc would require more AA's spent in each corresponding AA catagory.

This way you're actually working to progress your character, regarless of it being a main, alt, or a bot. The work put into each character would stay equal with the Tmap and Raid loot you could equip as well as putting a stop to the twinking of alts. and your brothers girlfriends little brother.

It would also allow the personal choice to help another character or group along (the earlier mentioned handholding) to stay a personal one. I could with this kind of a system still let someone loot something they can't use yet - and then they would have to do their part to be able to equip it. Some may not, and it will rot in their bank instead of on the mob, and people who are legitimately using other tactics, bots or what-have you, won't be missing out on the rewards for their work, and time spent.

 

[Bruttal]

Well i had an idea for a complete revamp of nodrop items. ill write it up and edit this post with the link

 

[Waldoff]

I can post again!

What was that bruttal?

 

[Minerios]

This is probably his proposed revamp.

 

[Waldoff]

oh =p tyhats a horrid idea.

I still think upping raid cap to 42 would be the best bet. Still only 36 can aggro the mob, but you can choose mains to loot int he extra spots leaving no one out.

 

[phlit]

Any update on the official position re this? I heard yesterday that you now have to actually be online and in the fight to loot a mob now... Regardless, I think this is about the worst implementation of an idea/fix in the history of SoD/WR. It's a big 'fuck you' to people who bot to help out raids; and countless others in various other situations. It's a big hassle, at the very least, for more people than it is a benifit too, especially once you're 65+ (which is the majority of the playerbase?...). Not to mention it's a really dumb contradiction to allow 'recommended levels' on loot where anyone but a 65 shouldn't be using it anyway.

The logic in bringing about a system that allows 'lower' characters to use previously higher-end only items (recommended levels system) BUT at the same time tells 65+s they can't ever bot and expect loot is just crap.

The worst thing about the change is that the attitude towards it by the staff has been exactly the attitude that came about on a certain other games forums, long, long ago, in a galaxy not so far away...

yeah..
burn.

And why can't we get proper 'news' on this 'update' on the SoD frontpage so we can actually be clear on wtf is happening? Secret ninja code?

Schumf summed it up basically... you're spoiling the 'fun'.

 

[rab]

It's not meant to be a benefit to anyone, so of course it's more hassle than benefit. And as I've said before, I'd rather this code NOT be there so Robb can gear up better, but it's hard to argue with logic sometimes, and the need for real fairness.

The characters who kill get the loot, not the people behind the character. If that were the case, why not just abolish no drop so you can switch out loot between your chars? After all, you earned it.

 

[Waldoff]

The logic behind it is sound Rabb, no one is denying that at this point. What we are asking for is a way to allow more than 36 toons to be on that list so the guild(s) who max out a raid doesnt have a disadvantage over the guilds who get 30 per raid and can log out 6 bots to scoop up rott. Least thats what im pleading for.

 

[Zhak]

Why shouldn't a guild who max out raids be at a disadvantage concerning rot loots?

If you have a guild who can kill a mob with 30 people instead of using the traditional 36, then great for them, they get to have a couple extra characters in the raid who can come take up rots. It's more of a reward to me than anything else. We both know that any event on this server can be done with less than 36 characters, hell most server firsts from Legacy / Forsaken were done with less than 30. If you require to have 36 people to beat said event, why should the raid cap be made higher so you can bring in even more characters to get loot?

If you're using 36 characters to beat an event, and no one from those 36 characters can upgrade from the loot that dropped, something is wrong, because that shouldn't be happening. I am against the idea of raising the cap on raids, cut the fat out of your raid and do it with less, then you can have the luxury of filling the rest of the raid with alt / bots to pick up rots.

 

[cyberus]

The logic in bringing about a system that allows 'lower' characters to use previously higher-end only items (recommended levels system) BUT at the same time tells 65+s they can't ever bot and expect loot is just crap.

Sure, the recommended level let's your level one wear a lvl rec 65 item, but take a minute to look at the stats from that toon, they suck! Not to mention any procs will not activate until you reach the recommended level, so that system balances itself out.

 

[Zaos]

For those who missed it or didn't read closely here it is again directed at more than just Tempus.

Yea....but remember this is a game that is supposed to be fun? You sound so detatched, like someone who hasn't actually played SoD in a while. We know some classes in SoD are more valuable to raids than others, yet people initially create what they would enjoy playing. That means that the random mix of classes available in a guild every night dont always create an ideal raid force. Preventing a raiding guild from raiding creates a lot of sad pandas. Making a raid happen creates fun for your fellow players, and it's a sacrifice many players gladly make. This recent change prevents that person from advancing their real character, their alter-ego. There ceases the fun.

This is a hardass policy that creates more problem than it fixes. Re-institute level requirements, tighten the Mob Level -- Player Level loot requirement to 10, make OOCing rotting gear a bannable or jailable offense. Anything but this horribly abrasive new loot system.

I'm all for a thriving economy but from the aspect of PLAYER of a GAME, creating a situation where we can't utilize items we earned with characters other than our mains is rediculous. We ONLY have the ability to play 2 characters (DC) at once as it is... What do you stand to lose? I'm all for the implementation of some restriction upon those who clearly don't deserve these rotting items (see the quotted suggestions above) but this loot system is retarded and unrealistic to boot.

 

[Haphesto]

If you're using 36 characters to beat an event, and no one from those 36 characters can upgrade from the loot that dropped, something is wrong, because that shouldn't be happening.

Sometimes a mob is killed just for one or two rare drops. No one present may need X item, but an alt probably does. If that "alt" is actually someone's main who is sitting out the fight so the person can play a more needed class for the night, ho boy does that piss them off. There's also the factor of who deserves what, since that person playing the needed class is just as, if not more entitled to a chance at X item for their main.

Concerning filling a raid to 36, Ruin just naturally has a high population and 36+ real players on at raid times is common. While "trimming the fat" might be your solution, I doubt Ruin wants to simply kick out skilled raiders because there are too many on some nights.