No class should be balanced around one AA

[Melodico]

Just throwing out ideas~

tome:

Exorcised Presence :

Necromancer gains stance: /s 4 Aura of Exorcism

Aura of Exorcism:
The necromancer takes on an overbearing aura. Hostile creatures, overwhelmed by such a presence, begin to drain from this world. The necromancer and his allies, siphon the spirit of the enemy.


Effect: Hostiles within melee range of the necromancer, receive a tap effect, siphoning 100 hp & mana / tic (scaling upward per tome rank) back to the necromancer and his party.

Thoughts: Make it limited, costing the necro sta. Also risk mechanic from melee range. Adjusting #s to balance. Current #s yields
17 (per tome rank) hp / mana tap per mob to each group member


-pazms

 

[Boehm]

How about Seduction of Saryn and the conversion of fc into a timed overlich allowing conversion of 1000 hp into mana 1:1 every 2 minutes over 30 seconds at a base level. This would require healing coordination and choice of conversion point(s) in the boss event. It should scale with hp so it was always germane and dangerous. So at my tier it was 3-4 k of damage over 30ish seconds, providing more mana of course.

I'm not interested in twitching my raid or group. I don't want any more stuff that some dude may wake up in three years and nerf in order to prove he's relevant. I'm not interested in tweaks. I want bread and butter fixes.

And yes, I'm basically suggesting the removal of mana cost as a damage restriction variable, because our practical dps is already restricted by what we can apply during a spell rotation. Since its mana cost that makes FC necessary across the tiers currently for necromancer dps. So spell duration and base damage of applied spells would be the limiter in a class that is extremely predictable.

We would still be bad on anything with low health, and average on anything that made us move a lot. Movement fights being archaic and caress since we don't have time to cast anything else. This would also make us better in groups since we have to waste huge amounts of mana over dotting to be an acceptable group member.

 

[Rorne]

How about Seduction of Saryn and the conversion of fc into a timed overlich allowing conversion of 1000 hp into mana 1:1 every 2 minutes over 30 seconds at a base level. This would require healing coordination and choice of conversion point(s) in the boss event. It should scale with hp so it was always germane and dangerous. So at my tier it was 3-4 k of damage over 30ish seconds, providing more mana of course.

I'm not interested in twitching my raid or group. I don't want any more stuff that some dude may wake up in three years and nerf in order to prove he's relevant. I'm not interested in tweaks. I want bread and butter fixes.

Would this really help your damage enough to offset the loss of FC or are you talking, like, this + dot number tweaking?

Oh you kind of already answered my question in the edit you made while I was typing this

 

[Boehm]

Yes, I shouldn't have assumed that people would know what I was talking about. So everyone knows, an necromancer fight looks like this currently:
1. apply FC
2. debuff with murk
3. run all the dots you can to 50-40%
4. Start to run oom and back off
5. 20 % under run Archaic and FC because you are dead empty, maybe scitter if you have enough regen and it will land. Which comes to my point about murk being a dps upgrade, since terris not stacking with druid tarhyl make poison and disease hopeless prior.

Beyond the restrictions that duration from dot time cause for stacking, no one really knows what necromancer dots can do during a ten minute fight because no necro can run them that long. I don't think this alone would be enough because HB reprocing on non-disease resistant mobs was 1300-1800 a tick including dot damage depending on crit.

So big three + fc scaling + HB static was allowing me to do 1050ish base dps on a long fight with no or minimal movement. Any dps beyond this was because of vah back etc. Big three + fc is around 700-750 without HB and before vah back etc. This is on fights with dps requirements in excess of 1200 for primary dps. By way of comparison bards do 700 - 950 on these fights, and rangers 950 - 1100 depending on misses.

-Since I left it out:
Also low tier was something like this;
1. apply FC
2. debuff with terris, slip caress in until the druid tarhyls. Which they often don't, but only your necro knows for sure.
3. run all fire dots you can to 50-40%
4. Start to run oom and back off
5. 20 % under run Marlows and FC because you are dead empty and couldn't possibly land scitter even if you had the mana to try. Since the druid probably landed tarhyl.

 

[Rorne]

That sounds like a pretty reasonable request then. I wonder if anyone has bothered to calc out the kind of mana wizards are getting back from arcane echo in a raid setting.

Before anyone makes a move I'm not saying arcane echo should be nerfed!!! It was a good/needed change but I feel like it probably helped skew the dynamic between wizards and necromancers.

 

[Boehm]

That sounds like a pretty reasonable request then. I wonder if anyone has bothered to calc out the kind of mana wizards are getting back from arcane echo in a raid setting.

Before anyone makes a move I'm not saying arcane echo should be nerfed!!! It was a good/needed change but I feel like it probably helped skew the dynamic between wizards and necromancers.

It really not a wizard-necro thing. mages and wizards are pretty close, with wizards being slightly ahead and necros averaging 2-300 dps behind except on Rujik where the synergistic reprocing of HB on adds under 40% allowed necs to do 1300 in the past with vah back, gloves and ear. so probably 1150-1200 without? This is a really long fight and fc gets to cap on it, 2200 with tarhyl.

But I really don't know what a full rotation would do since I am usually in low mana mode and being carried by HB and FC below 40%. I have to do the fight now to tell you what a parse looks like now.
I expect 3-400 base dps less.

 

[Silosobi]

Ideas:

Across the board, increase DoT efficency by a bit (10-20%?)

Make FC into Vell's super-lich:
10 min recast
1 sec cast
30 sec duration
Drains 10% of the necros hp every tic and gives them an equal amount of mana back.

Make Runic 1 into a rogue pet, small buff to meele dps and hp, but make it backstab every 10 sec for 500-1k, and have a high proc rate of deflux.

Change Insidious Decay into:
This tome provides a 3%/rank chance of Dots Reapplying themselves when they would otherwise fade.

Change Leeching Servant to:
Improves pets proc/lifetap rate by 25%/rank

 

[Silosobi]

That sounds like a pretty reasonable request then. I wonder if anyone has bothered to calc out the kind of mana wizards are getting back from arcane echo in a raid setting.

I have.

It ends up giving wizards about the same mana regen as a lich'd necro assuming the wizard is smart in their spell rotation (lots of wizards are not).

 

[Boehm]

Ideas:

Across the board, increase DoT efficency by a bit (10-20%?)

Yes, this would go in accordance with my request to have dot below 8 tick duration increased by 1 tick and 2 for funeral pyre.

I really think we will need extra long duration dots to run. Lowbies may probably need another long duration dot between pyrocruor and scitterpox.

Make FC into Vell's super-lich:
10 min recast
1 sec cast
30 sec duration
Drains 10% of the necros hp every tic and gives them an equal amount of mana back.

I don't think 3 k every ten minutes is enough. But I'm largely looking at usage from unadjusted efficiency. Make it 5 and its more plausible to my mind especially with Saryn because we probably need to be running more dots.

Make Runic 1 into a rogue pet, small buff to meele dps and hp, but make it backstab every 10 sec for 500-1k, and have a high proc rate of deflux.

I guess. One of my concerns is I think the aggro of the tap is transferred to me, but idk. Taps are a lot of aggro. Low hp pets are pretty meh and Toby gets one shot as it is. Being balanced in part by a low hp pet thats often dead
is underwhelming. Also, mages and bsts are going to "necro pets do ...." on the forums if its any where close to good, and so I'm not sure I want to eat out of anyone else's rice bowl.

I'm willing to discuss it but I have reservations.

Change Insidious Decay into:
This tome provides a 3%/rank chance of Dots Reapplying themselves when they would otherwise fade.

This I like.

Change Leeching Servant to:
Improves pets proc/lifetap rate by 25%/rank

It's damn close if you mean off my casts, but the pet does no melee damage during the 5.5 second cast so you are looking at idk. I should really track it but
I see it as a class flavor tome of no real consequence. Toby flipping to tap an alternate target is pretty cute. I suppose I'll take a look at it. but i suspect its like 30-40 more dps for the pet, but a loss of dot application out of me.

My motivation for casting lifetaps is pretty gone. we generally only use it soloing or when the healer is high. I have no reason to use it in groups any more.

 

[Boehm]

crap came back and somehow relogged in an hour later

 

[Silosobi]

I don't think 3 k every ten minutes is enough. But I'm largely looking at usage from unadjusted efficiency. Make it 5 and its more plausible to my mind especially with Saryn because we probably need to be running more dots.

It should give you about ~4.5k mana. It would give a t5 necro more like 2.5k mana. I figured those numbers were appropriate with the other changes, 5 min cd means you could gain 9k mana on longer raid fights which seems like a lot in addition to general dot buffs, but only time will tell.

I guess. One of my concerns is I think the aggro of the tap is transferred to me, but idk. Taps are a lot of aggro. Low hp pets are pretty meh and Toby gets one shot as it is. Being balanced in part by a low hp pet thats often dead
is underwhelming. Also, mages and bsts are going to "necro pets do ...." on the forums if its any where close to good, and so I'm not sure I want to eat out of anyone else's rice bowl.

I'm willing to discuss it but I have reservations.

Agro shouldn't be transferred. My idea was a pet with ~10k hp, he can survive any inital AE damage that a player can, and a lot of his dps comes from lifetaps ( maybe 50 meele dps and 50 lifetap dps), meaning he can also heal himself up from anything but super intense AE damage, but medium hp, and ultra low ac makes him not much of a tanking pet. I always think of necros as a pet class, so I like the idea of an upgraded pet with good lifetap/backstab/dps utility, but not the tanking ability of mage/bst pets.

It's damn close if you mean off my casts, but the pet does no melee damage during the 5.5 second cast so you are looking at idk. I should really track it but
I see it as a class flavor tome of no real consequence. Toby flipping to tap an alternate target is pretty cute. I suppose I'll take a look at it. but i suspect its like 30-40 more dps for the pet, but a loss of dot application out of me.

My motivation for casting lifetaps is pretty gone. we generally only use it soloing or when the healer is high. I have no reason to use it in groups any more.

I thought having the pet actually mimic/cast lifetaps was a bit weird. He also actually wiped a raid because he got stuck in a spot casting where he shouldn't be (admittedly thats a uncommon/wierd situation). I think the relic pet procs lifetaps, but this idea is more in combination with my runic 1 pet idea - 4 ranks of this tome could buff your pet up to doing ~100 dps just through lifetaps, giving him decent overall dps and good survivability.

 

[Boehm]

It should give you about ~4.5k mana. It would give a t5 necro more like 2.5k mana. I figured those numbers were appropriate with the other changes, 5 min cd means you could gain 9k mana on longer raid fights which seems like a lot in addition to general dot buffs, but only time will tell.

I was at work and divided by ten instead of 6. That is more plausible, especially with Saryn.

Agro shouldn't be transferred. My idea was a pet with ~10k hp, he can survive any inital AE damage that a player can, and a lot of his dps comes from lifetaps ( maybe 50 meele dps and 50 lifetap dps), meaning he can also heal himself up from anything but super intense AE damage, but medium hp, and ultra low ac makes him not much of a tanking pet. I always think of necros as a pet class, so I like the idea of an upgraded pet with good lifetap/backstab/dps utility, but not the tanking ability of mage/bst pets.

HP-wise that is better. I actually sort of like this.

I thought having the pet actually mimic/cast lifetaps was a bit weird. He also actually wiped a raid because he got stuck in a spot casting where he shouldn't be (admittedly thats a uncommon/wierd situation). I think the relic pet procs lifetaps, but this idea is more in combination with my runic 1 pet idea - 4 ranks of this tome could buff your pet up to doing ~100 dps just through lifetaps, giving him decent overall dps and good survivability.

Well, less cute but a better tome. Positioning would be key which i like.

 

[Zaela]

Other devs seem to be talking about Necro efficiency now so I guess that's out of my hands.

I like tome talk though so here is some from me:

Agreed that the pet tap mimic and disease spread tomes suck. Normally I would prefer some wacky way out there new idea but here are a couple that preserve some of the basic spirit of the current ones:

Insidious Infection -> Insidious Infection: When your target is suffering from one of your Disease-based spells, they have a chance each tick to spread one random non-Disease DoT of yours that they are also suffering from to another nearby target.

Idea there being to give you a reason to use a Disease DoT (as before) but actually maybe getting something powerful out of it. Adds a little AE power back, as well as some extra synergy with Runic1 (all the targets spreading all your other DoTs amongst themselves individually). That could maybe get a little too good in some situations... but maybe it could be capped somehow, or only chain for so long from a single cast of Claws of the Chill or what have you. Also since there isn't much reason to use Diseases otherwise as far as I'm hearing it kind of maybe solves the no turning it off problem of the tome... perhaps.

That pet lifetap one -> Pet Engoodening: Increases your Pet's max HP by 12.5% (15%? 20%? 25%?) per rank and gives it a Lifedraw/Siphon Life/Spirit Tap/Deflux melee proc (NPC procs have an 8% chance to occur per round).

Pet survivability and a little extra DPS, nothing too fancy.

I'll admit I skimmed most of the other ideas in this thread since my last post. Dunno about that super lich thing for the AA, kind of seems like a screw you to Shamans and their very non-scaling non-1:1 AA canni.

 

[Rorne]

I'll admit I skimmed most of the other ideas in this thread since my last post. Dunno about that super lich thing for the AA, kind of seems like a screw you to Shamans and their very non-scaling non-1:1 AA canni.

I think if you just elongated the duration it's not that insane a request. There is a big difference between having mana immediately versus waiting on ticks and healer mana is an entirely different animal. Plus Velleity brought up a good point, necromancer damage is already artificially capped by the nature of how dots work, having more mana isn't going to provide you with any more immediate damage but it would allow you to sustain the numbers you are doing for longer which is what necromancers should be able to do (and which is something removing FC would impact).

 

[Silosobi]

I personally dont like the idea of spreading dots. It was neat/fun at first, but after seeing applications, and a few levels of nerfs, it just seems like its either too good or not worth it. Its always going to be pretty situational, and so it should be pretty good then, but I'd rather see something entirely new.

I like the pet one for sure though. (and it would still work well with the suggested runic dps style pet)

As far as necros never casting disease, thats just not true. Through a lot of the game content there are stupid high resists on lots of mobs, which make landing disease impossible or inefficient, but that's just a problem with the content. Could be partially fixed in the general dot buffs by adding a moderate -resist adjust.

 

[Silosobi]

kind of seems like a screw you to Shamans and their very non-scaling non-1:1 AA canni.

I would really be in favor of changing AAs across the board to scale somewhat. Its fine to have AAs more powerful when you get them than way down the line, but the fact that 80% of activated AAs are obsolete by even mid raid tiers is really sad, and tends to make characters and the game less interactive.

eg: as a wizard it was cool that if I was attentive and clicked life fire right before I would otherwise died, it was a significant help to my raid and could actually make a difference. There is the payoff that maybe DA would go off or other things would save me, but it was worth if for that big chunk of instant damage. This was the case at t1, and by t3 I still wanted it to be useful but it hardly was. By t7-8 it was pretty much useless, and all my character has done since then is cast moon comet and concussion (obviously an oversimplification, but activated AAs DO add flavor and fun to the game)

 

[Otcho]

This is not going to fix necromancers but could you make mindwrack work on mobs without mana like vortex. I always thought this owned when people gave me 400 mana and then after orc fort noone ever casted it ever again. Perhaps maybe put mindwrack effect into another spell.

 

[Dinadass]

This is not going to fix necromancers but could you make mindwrack work on mobs without mana like vortex. I always thought this owned when people gave me 400 mana and then after orc fort noone ever casted it ever again. Perhaps maybe put mindwrack effect into another spell.

This or something similar would be cool. Obviously turning necromancers into mana batteries for clerics like they were at certain points of live is not something to shoot for, but the ability of a necro to feed mana to the group in SoD did make them a lot more attractive for exp groups. It also helped other casters in the group maintain higher DPS which I would say is a good thing for melee vs. caster demand in groups.

Adding the mindwrack effect to another spell that normally isn't used in a max-DPS rotation but would still be worth casting if your group's mana starts to get low would be a good thing. This combined with DOT improvements and the removal of FC would help bring necros back up to where they should be.

 

[Boehm]

Other devs seem to be talking about Necro efficiency now so I guess that's out of my hands.

We did Rujik last night, which is end game Gongo - necro dream parse, and with vah shir, chaotic destruction and fulmination, I parsed worse then the bard who does not have vah back. The nerf resulted in a 500* dps loss from other parses with the same conditions. Someone probably told someone. It was a disaster. I am only good for soloing with 62 tomes and every good necro item in the game bar one.

Insidious Infection -> Insidious Infection: When your target is suffering from one of your Disease-based spells, they have a chance each tick to spread one random non-Disease DoT of yours that they are also suffering from to another nearby target.

I like this, but if wizards feel in any way threatened they are going to cry their eyes out. So its probably best to give it a pass for now. But you are correct, the tome is not well thought out in general.

I do like the idea of a tome that is a percentage damage modifier to disease or perhaps dots in general. But what would be appropriate I don't really know.

That pet lifetap one -> Pet Engoodening: Increases your Pet's max HP by 12.5% (15%? 20%? 25%?) per rank and gives it a Lifedraw/Siphon Life/Spirit Tap/Deflux melee proc (NPC procs have an 8% chance to occur per round).

Pet survivability and a little extra DPS, nothing too fancy.

I like this a lot. It basically keeps out of other classes rice bowls and makes a flavor tome something useable.

One thing, the current tome appears to proc on charm pets, which is amusingly bad and a huge dps loss. Another point of the tome which made it charmingly awful. Charm pets should probably not be casting lifetaps.

I'll admit I skimmed most of the other ideas in this thread since my last post. Dunno about that super lich thing for the AA, kind of seems like a screw you to Shamans and their very non-scaling non-1:1 AA canni.

It cannot be intended that what should be a sustained dps class runs out of gas at 2 million health left. Death Bloom is how this was solved in another game. If you want to make it lethal without a healer and 2.5:1, that is fine. Necs currently have no danger since the change, and it's boring as fuck.

For groups and noobies especially, have you ever thought of say a two tick marlow's copy? Aggregating the damage of the dot into two ticks, it would be functionally useless except for "bursts" in raids. Probably not even then, since you wouldnt be able to change spell sets most events. i actually dont think it would be good as burst since all your other dots would be a bitch to refresh.

*brimz made up a number.

 

[sheer1]

I parsed worse then the bard

can you stop using me as a benchmark for how bad necros are?

tia