No class should be balanced around one AA

Okay I've read some things now.

Silosobi said:
FC:
10 sec cast
0 recast
For each tic this spell is active on a target, they take an additional .5% damage from its caster up to 20% (at 4 minutes). Past that they take an extra .2% per tic, not to exceed 40% (14 minute mark, fights almost never go this long, but a cap helps prevent exploits)
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My main problem with "an increase everything on target by a %" effect is that it's still just a "you'll be better on fights where there's only one target to damage" button. Sure, it would make Necro scaling more linear than it is now... but then so would just taking Festering Curse out altogether and just boosting their DoTs a bit. I guess there is the strategy element of "is this target worth blowing it on or will there be something more important during the fight?" but overall I'm not sure how interesting it is. Rather make DPS not significantly dependent on an active AA at all to get around all the issues inherent there. Rather see some interesting utility!

Silosobi said:
Change FC to: Demonic Contract

15 min cd
1 sec cast
5 tic self debuff
-10% health every tic
+4% mana per tic
+1% mana to all group members per tic
+50% critical spell chance
Gain additional -100 resist mod to all spells (if possible)
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A super mode could be neat. Maybe a pet-based super mode could be cool too.

Maybe an effect which makes any and all DoTs into a group lifetap over time, say 5% of any caster's DoT damage becoming a heal for that caster's group. Synergy between Necros, and a little with Shamans too. Maybe even make it spread via the tome disease spread code.

"Dread Pact" - Necro targets an ally and gets a debuff on themselves. For the next 15 minutes, their target receives healing equal to any healing the Necro receives from their lifetap and lifetap-over-time spells, but if the target dies the Necro dies too, or they get dropped to 1% HP and lose the ability to FD for a while or some such.

Super mode v2 - Necro receives a debuff which turns all their damage into lifetaps, increases their damage by a %, but drains 20% of their max HP each tick. Lasts a minute or two maybe.

"Curse of Fate" - the target receives damage equal to any damage the caster receives for a little while. Actually that has all the problems I said at the start and more so forget that.

"Raise the Dead" - Necro sacrifices their pet to raise the bones of one of their fallen allies, with the same HP and Mana that the ally had as well as any single-target spells they had memmed at the time of death (nukes, DoTs or heals particularly) although with their casting limited to pet AI. The pet expires after a minute.


Etc etc etc. I guess most of those aren't even very utility...y
 
Zaela said:
Necro scaling more linear than it is now... but then so would just taking Festering Curse out altogether and just boosting their DoTs a bit. I guess there is the strategy element of "is this target worth blowing it on or will there be something more important during the fight?" but overall I'm not sure how interesting it is. Rather make DPS not significantly dependent on an active AA at all to get around all the issues inherent there. Rather see some interesting utility!
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You are probably right here. Making necro dps focus around any AA is a bit strange. We should just collect parses from across tiers of what % of total damage FC adds, and buff dots in general to compensate.

Then we are left with an AA to replace with some cool utility or powermode or something.

Form of Death
Illusion: Specter
3 sec cast
15 min recast
5 tic duration
Silence
Lose 10% health every tic
200% spell damage (boosts the dots you have running before you start)
300% haste for self and pet
Necro gains an inharent meele that does (50% of X) to X damage every 3 seconds (~1 sec with haste). X = 5% of Necro's total hp.
100% accuracy

Damage Conversion
3 sec cast
10 min recast
4 tic duration
All damage necro does heals the entire group
 
Zaela said:
"Dread Pact" - Necro targets an ally and gets a debuff on themselves. For the next 15 minutes, their target receives healing equal to any healing the Necro receives from their lifetap and lifetap-over-time spells, but if the target dies the Necro dies too, or they get dropped to 1% HP and lose the ability to FD for a while or some such.
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Upon reflection I think out of all the ideas I randomly rattled off I like this one the best, for a few reasons:

*It's straightforward to understand and to code.
*It's pure utility.
*It kinda sorta follows the sacrifice-healing spell theme they already have.
*It makes lifetaps a little more attractive.
*It fulfills my healing-via-damage dream, if on a limited basis.
*It has potential usefulness in both groups and raids.
*It has nice risk-vs-reward and strategic elements rather than a pure gain.
*It lets Necros edge into a new and interesting role just a little bit (though obviously not enough to ever replace an actual healer).

But I've never played a raid-level Necro so idk.
 
While I like the dot% idea I can see what you mean by boosting dots having about the same effect. If the plan is to rebalance dots around no FC then...

-Some type of (not pet based) super mode sounds good.
-A healing ability like Dread Pact is OKAY as a distant second, but why not make it interesting by being group wide and if anybody dies the Necro dies? It'd be the spiritual upgrade to Zevfeer's we always wanted with the hilarity of bads and /cmd suicide looming.

If something new and exciting is not in the cards does the swarm archers AA exist somewhere in the recesses of SoD's server/client? I know it is from a later expansion but is the spell ID, or however that works, usable?

Rorne, Lichstorm is not really about moving the class in a direciton, just replacing a terrible AA with something useful. Lots of AAs are powerful versions of existing abilities (recession, cleric hot, evacs, canni, etc...) and Mind Wrack is an existing ability that does not get an upgrade otherwise. Plus, think how easy it is to change 'Leechstorm' to 'Lichstorm', that has to count for something, am i rite?
 
donfolstar3 said:
-Some type of (not pet based) super mode sounds good.
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A super mode is still kind of a "DPS dependent on an active AA" thing, just as a brief spike and not limited to one target. Plus, I dunno, it doesn't seem like Necros really lend themselves to a short burst effect either. I got all my DoTs running on the target, now I'm gonna hit super mode and let them tick real good.

edit: Also ends up being kind of a reverse Festering Curse, better DPS the shorter the fight is (i.e. the greater the proportion of super mode time to non-super mode time over the course of the fight). Kind of Wizardy.

donfolstar3 said:
-A healing ability like Dread Pact is OKAY as a distant second, but why not make it interesting by being group wide and if anybody dies the Necro dies? It'd be the spiritual upgrade to Zevfeer's we always wanted with the hilarity of bads and /cmd suicide looming.
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I was envisioning it as something that could be kept up full time (duration equal to reuse) and so wanted to avoid making it crazy powerful.

donfolstar3 said:
If something new and exciting is not in the cards does the swarm archers AA exist somewhere in the recesses of SoD's server/client? I know it is from a later expansion but is the spell ID, or however that works, usable?
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I have no idea what that is.
 
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The problem I see with Dread Pact is that lifetaps are generally slow casting, poor heal ratios, and a sacrifice to dps.

It would be an amazing utility for increasing a necromancers ability to duo, and would probably see some play in 6mans/exp, but my guess would be that it rarely got used in raid settings since the chance of the necro saving a tank is low, and in trying to provide extra healing they will sacrafice a ton of their dps, and tanks do sometimes just die, and if that kills the necro as well it hurts the raid even more. 5 second ~2k heals just aren't that likely to save raid tanks that can often go from 100% to dead in 2-3 bad rounds.

It could become a bit more raid viable if it increased the total effect of life-transfer abilities by 300%, making Channel Essence a nice quick heal/hot with a 30 sec cooldown (at the same time, hurting the necro a lot more, giving the lifetaps they are casting more to heal-up)

What about a shorter duration lifetaps heal the group buff that would allow necros to assist in healing rough phases of raid encounters (and still have solo/duo/group utility)? (and its still a trade-off since they sacrifice mana/high dps dot casttime)

Honestly, Death Pact as described by you would be something nice, and get more use than many AAs currently do (hi lifefire/manaburn), so take my comments as just creative brainstorming.
 
Silosobi said:
It would be an amazing utility for increasing a necromancers ability to duo, and would probably see some play in 6mans/exp, but my guess would be that it rarely got used in raid settings since the chance of the necro saving a tank is low, and in trying to provide extra healing they will sacrafice a ton of their dps, and tanks do sometimes just die, and if that kills the necro as well it hurts the raid even more. 5 second ~2k heals just aren't that likely to save raid tanks that can often go from 100% to dead in 2-3 bad rounds.
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It would have these problems if the only person you'd ever consider healing is a tank. That would be up to the Necro. I'd figure maybe there'd be someone else worth keeping up with lifetap over time HoTs and perhaps trying to pad with a lifetap now or then. Also maybe someone less likely to die in the normal course of a fight.

I freely admit that it is a dumb and bad idea though. Don't want to turn Necros into healers. But~
 
Your completely right there Zae, didnt even think of that. It could be really useful to help keep up the lowest hp member of any group. Also ramp tanks and such that take less and more steady damage can benefit more from slower more predictable heals.

I still do kind of like an ability to heal a bit of group hp or mana, but any of the three would be nice (shouldnt be anything super powerful). I'm sure just removing FC dependance will make all necros happy except the ones that want to max FC on cmal4 while mezzing an add (or all the other stupid OP things FC did)
 
After thinking about it while I played today I am ready to go 180 on Dread Pact (though Death or Blood Pact sounds better). One of the best applications I thought about was something just touched on about low hp members. This ability would be a welcome addition to the class and better than some kind of DPS supermode. I was thinking group wide at a % of taps, but full taps for one target is the way to go.

Though without FC (and no damage substitute) the damage/duration on dots needs some serious revision.

...Lichstorm. Just rolls off the tongue.
 
just lobbing ideas with my eyes closed dots

a lifetap curse

a deific brand-type thing, maybe with a random chance at the effect each hit instead of auto for each hit so it could have a lasty duration. possible effects

- generic mana free deific brand
- does x dmg / x heal on the target or player.
- returns mana for spells landed
- returns mana for hits landed
-edit fills inventory with bone chips for hits landed

an upgrade to degeneration or succussion of shadows that have increasing per tick effect / recourse

zone-wide surge of enfeeblement

the old wake-dead effect with the risen mob being a normal npc who just zoneshouts whatever you /say at it

prep the next lifetap spell to cast instantly

I like a life-bond type thing I just wanted to post these.
 
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Assuming FC is replaced with something not super powerful (as it should) I would change dots as such:

Scitterpox: 290 becomes 360 damage/tic, 9 becomes 10 tics, -5 becomes -25 resist
Spell: Relic: Marlow's Cremation: 420 becomes 460 damage/tic, 6 becomes 8 tics
Spell: Relic: Hand/Spirit of Kaezul: 335 becomes 380 damage/tic, 5 becomes 6 tics
Archaic: Claws of the Chill: 645 becomes 765/tic, 4 becomes 5 tics
Spell: Runic: Grip of Kaezul: Up initial lifetap to 600

From all the parses I can find I see festering doing 15-40% of the necros dps.
 
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...and for the Pre-Relic Necro who just had their #1 source of raidboss damage taken away:

Funeral Pyre of Malath: 330 becomes 375/tic, 6 becomes 8 ticks
Splurt: 16 becomes 18 ticks
 
Sounds good to me in general.

Would be nice to hear if there's more than 1 Necro who has any opinion about the healing pact idea thing.

I don't know what Woldaff will think of all this though.
 
The idea seems interesting coming from someone who has played a necromancer for years now. Festering Curse is a neat little AA, but as Velleity has already stated, it has many flaws. Necromancer DPS will definitely need adjusted (Solo's numbers are probably a good starting point until further testing is done), but giving them a 'Healing Pact' is a neat idea. I think it should be able to target someone and last until you zone, but it takes 10 minutes to refresh the AA just so you can't change your target during a fight (can only target one person at a time). If it can affect direct lifetaps AND lifetaps over time (which aren't coded as lifetaps), then that would be pretty great. Ancient lifetap is super inefficient for DPS, but it is obviously a survival tool. Being able to keep up a tank or a caster that might lack the gear on certain fights would be a welcomed addition.

The biggest and best change (since it affects 99% of necromancers) is that necromancers will be much better in experience groups since they will have better DoTs. Obviously Festering Curse is unusable in groups and being able to have a smoother DPS through just DoTs would make the class a lot more attractive for those looking for a DPS class to fill out their group.
 
I think that the suggested changes in this thread (mainly: remove FC, improve general DOT damage/efficency) are very good for the class. Necros are way too good at low tiers, and then they just don't scale well, getting weaker and weaker.

I'm suspicious that the recent changes to Insidious Decay will make necros even weaker at the endgame. I know the tome was actually providing decent single target DPS, but we will need to see some parses I guess.

At this point I would suggest just changing Insidious Decay into something else. By doing these tomes, you essentially break part of necro dps, disallowing them from using disease spells any time mezzing might potentially be needed. This might have seemed like an okay tradeoff when the tome was powerful, but if it works as described now, I honestly think I would simply choose to never do these tomes if I was a necro - preserving my ability to do disease dps all the time in trade for losing a minor boost to ae dps (I guess you can now get skitterpox to spread to a lot of mobs?! thats pretty minor dps, and the necro will already be applying herophants breath to all targets regardless of the tome.

Insideous Decay
Adds a 5%/rank chance for critical dot tics to do 3x damage instead of 2x.
 
Yeah, the combination of Strands and Insidious Infection really made necros desirable in groups (since they are terrible before any of that). With these two tomes nerfed, it would be great for Festering to be removed and all necro dots to have their damage increased (as suggested above in a lot of posts). This way the necro is still doing decent DPS in a group and raid setting without Festering Curse. The combination of Strands and Infection was great in a few select zones/pulls, but now the sustainability of necro DPS in groups has dropped dramatically.
 
Dont you need to get the killing blow on a mob for strands of life to happen anyway? If so that is pretty butts.
 
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