Sounds like convenience to me...
I'll take you up on that bet.
My shaman is kinda weak and I can. Are you fighting groups of these mobs at once? Do you not use your quick heal at all? (I don't even remember wizards in Elds using aes)
Mid-Range Cleric Heals
- Thread starter Hillary
- Start date
Sounds like convenience to me...
I'll take you up on that bet.
My shaman is kinda weak and I can. Are you fighting groups of these mobs at once? Do you not use your quick heal at all? (I don't even remember wizards in Elds using aes)
Salarus
Dalayan Master
FD is amazing, I said so in that thread but pretty much every SK said it was almost worthless utility that they would be fine getting rid of. I didn't mean to say ports are on the same level in my mind, merely to point out that all these things are utiltiy, and although they arn't as useful in nearly every ideal situation - this game isn't played always in ideal situations/setups and random things like that sure as useful in practice. Also, evac's give me a hard on for how good they are now.
In other news, clerics are still boring as much to most people and don't get played - in large part because most of the time of an average player probably is spent outside of raids - where clerics are 2 dimensional and druids can for all intents and purposes could repopulate dalaya by themselves.
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Rorne's post more than answered this:
but to tag onto it...if you want to know what happens when you don't balance for the endgame look at gear/stat inflation in WoW. Even though we still have this inflation in SoD, it's not out of control. There's still early 65 content that can be challenging and fun even once you've reached upper tier raid content.
I believe that the devs have chosen to focus on class roles for balance rather than just gear to achieve the same effect. For now the road to the top has many options and having flexibility with classes is important. I played a Druid through Tier 6 and currently main a Tier 8/9 Wizard and neither of them are irreplaceable in the Raid-game. The same cannot be said of Monks,Bards,Clerics...(See Cinn's God Tier Post).
Have we Druids had to learn a different play style? Yes.
Am I completely satisfied with the changes? No.
Do I think this has opened up opportunities for Druids to progress in the raid game? Absolutely.
tldr; Druids fun, not OP, and have more options available now.
Faldeney/Kenner
65 Wizard/65 Druid
Good post.
Just a reply to the people who like using buffs as a balancing point. This is wrong. You cannot give credit to something you are gaining which doesn't require the person to be in the group. Do enchanters need a nerf because they supply the best mana regen and hastes in the game? No. No one cares about this.
You can only look at what the class can provide to you directly, that is, in battle (whether it be in a group, or a raid).
You have 3 aspects of every fight in the game. Damage absorption, healing (also damage mitigation), and damage dealt. How well each class contributes to these 3 aspects in a fight is where they should be balanced.
Just a reply to the people who like using buffs as a balancing point. This is wrong. You cannot give credit to something you are gaining which doesn't require the person to be in the group. Do enchanters need a nerf because they supply the best mana regen and hastes in the game? No. No one cares about this.
You can only look at what the class can provide to you directly, that is, in battle (whether it be in a group, or a raid).
You have 3 aspects of every fight in the game. Damage absorption, healing (also damage mitigation), and damage dealt. How well each class contributes to these 3 aspects in a fight is where they should be balanced.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
If you're going to ONLY consider these three elements in balancing an entire class, then sure. That is a very ignorant way of stating balance for the vast majority of the server though. Yea, for some super high end content druids needed some balancing. Good. This doesn't change the fact that you downplay the amazing amounts of things druids excell at and can do really well outside of this tiny bit of content. It is possible to balance not only around those three aspects, but around the out of raid game as well. Do you have any idea what kind of dirty things i'd do as a cleric for ports, evac and foe? Hell, the ability to targeted aoe mobs, or have a nuke that isn't utter crap? These things matter for the majority of people playing this game. This is why there is a strong dislike of the cleric class, and why so many people who like healing play druids instead.
tl;dr: High end balance is a good thing, but you need to balance for the rest of the game as well, it's not a situation where you can only balance around one aspect.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
WHat you probably would not do is give up all the extra healing ability a cleric has for this stuff!!
Sure but if you're doing some real you're still better off with a cleric for healing and the world does not turn without clerics. That is just reality, they are still the best at what they do.
do you know what I would do to not have to nuke to dps? This isn't just for a tiny bit of content, that's your personal sentiment.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
Do you havce any idea how often my 6,500 big heal even lands for 6,500 on raids? (i'm horrible and not max codex yet!) I would gladlly have it hitting for 5,500 and have some of that stuff like track, evacs, and ports. (Not saying i'd literally want those, as it would make druids and clerics too much alike, just throwing out examples)
I agree, the raid game is balanced around clerics, but I really hope you agree with my observation that people don't like playing them outside of raids, if at all. I see this as an issue that is very possible to fix.
Meta: You don't havce to nuke for dps. A high end druid can melee alone and almost keep up with a cleric, toss in a few dots and you pass them. Throw on the option to have a single target nuke much better than theirs, as well as targeted aoe nukes which are very useful for some raid encounters as well as in groups in the DPS category alone, and druids straight up obliterate clerics. You may not like the option to nuke for way more dps than a cleric, but at least you have that option.
What im' trying to say with your model of Damage absorption, Damage mitigated, and damage dealt as the way to balance every class, ignores quite a few things found outside of raiding and high end 6 man content. That is why I made the assumption that you saw it as high end balancing, which I should have stated is really most t3+ raiding is what i'm considering for clarification as well as ember + 6 man; as that is where the model fits best. If you want to take that model and apply it to say, farming, druids and a few other classes will come out wildly overpowerd; and even then, it still ignores valuable things to farming such as tracking, mobility, and self sustainability (having to re load buff bots a ton wastes good farming time sir.)
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Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
Edit: Sorry Waldoff it takes much less typing to laugh at this instead of explain why he is wrong.
The only time druid melee dps gets close to cleric melee dps is when you get a Crystalis and that is tier 12 okay. Also, druid 1HB has a lower cap, so they will never be as good of melee dps with a cleric. In reference to your suggestion that druids do more dps if they stack on a couple dots.. druids only get one line of dots.. so you are suggesting the use of Crawling Swarm??? 178/tick??? Gross.
Also, druids cannot nuke on raids.. I mean you literally Can't do it. You have quick heal, big heal, relic hot, ancient hot, group hot, group heal, archaic and depending on the fight runic group heal and a complete heal or two.. granted you could swap archaic for nightfire after it lands but yeah this is a silly thing to say..
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Salarus
Dalayan Master
All I can say to you is I see druids do it all the time, and the following is where I disagree with you.
Farhag 1 hander and UC 1 hander with divine rage, 100% haste range and GoE on, come decently close. Toss on dots to this, and from what i've been told (I don't parse myself) druids do in fact pass clerics. And yes, one of the best druids I know stacks crawling with reilc in some situations, it's really not THAT bad.
Druids can nuke on raids, and the one I raid with most does - while still performing all of his healing tasks. Hell, i've only raided in iksith up to part way through Yclist, but i've done every old world raid encounter (other than most of CoM and PoE's as they went in after I was at that tier) and druids have plenty of room to nuke on trash mobs, and even on a fair amount of boss fights. Hell, there are two major encounters in ToT where its very benefical to have your druid nuking.
Maybe that I raid with 2 druids a fair amount speaks to them having more time sinced they can split up taking turns on their relic hots and just let clerics do EoB (god forbid!) And generally only one of them will ever be in charge of group healing, since the other two groups are covered by clerics. This leaves plenty of cast time, ESPECIALLY on non aoe fights where clerics and the shaman can keep the tanks up just fine for the druids to nuke. Sure, in progression fights with high dps, you generally won't see a druid nuking - but the rest of the time I sure as hell do.
Really though, go grab that farhag or UC ranged, toss on goe, get that haste ranged, toss on divine range, and see what you parse. Then parse an on tier cleric. Try this in say, BQ. You'd be suprised.
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Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
Druids can cast on low end content, this is not a luxury you have later on. Relic Dot+Crawling Swarm+Farhag/Undercity mace comes nowhere near cleric hammer. This is one of the few things I have in fact actually parsed and am not just saying I have done it for the sake of argument. Gtoo shit all over every druid I ever had access too most of which were holding some position in the top 5.
i do this with crystalis, 7% cold focus, lots of tomes, 75% haste ranged (its not 100), and GoE, Divine Rage, and Farhag ear (evoc mod) and i still parse less than a 5 codex cleric
Salarus
Dalayan Master
I'll guess i'll do my own parses when I get back in a week, I was just going off what I was told. If you still have your parses, i'd be very interested in seeing them.
I play a druid a fair amount, not so much on a shaman though. What you say about liking a cleric more, then main one - i'm simply addressing the lack of interest in clerics on this server, which I think is in large part due to the limited number of things they can do - and trying to think of something that would make them a little more interesting to play.
I play a druid a fair amount, not so much on a shaman though. What you say about liking a cleric more, then main one - i'm simply addressing the lack of interest in clerics on this server, which I think is in large part due to the limited number of things they can do - and trying to think of something that would make them a little more interesting to play.
Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
Another thing that hasn't been brought up yet, and I mean no disrespect in saying this.. but when was the last time Bane raided On Tier?? When you spend so much time backgearing you are usually far overgeared for the content that you are doing.. which allows for things like druids nuking etc. etc.
Also I would just like to add that the Worst Druid that I have Ever played/raided with.. nuked on raids.
Also I would just like to add that the Worst Druid that I have Ever played/raided with.. nuked on raids.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
I'll PM you the part to the first one, but i'm not touching that with a ten foot pole on these forums as it will no doubt kill this thread.
As I said, on progression fights you don't see druids dpsing as much (depends on the fight though tbh) but for on tier fights, or slightly overtired fights, it happens.
The best druid i've ever come accross, who is by far the best healer i've had the chance to raid with, pulls it off quite nicely.
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Salarus
Dalayan Master
yarly.
Budrick described him as "an act of god." I think he is some kind of mutant with 8 arms, or an entire factory of children each with one key under their control that they have to press and are constantly being fed adderhol or something.
Back on topic though - does anyone here disagree that there is a serious lack of mained clerics on this server? It seems that since i've been on this server, clerics have been the most sought after class for raiding. I'm just trying to come accross some way to make them a little more enticing to play for farming and xping.