Mantle of the Forest Overpowered

Jun said:
Sure it's great for the casual players, but honestly, the stats on fully augged tradeskill items such as Imp Hide/Shadow Silk and especially Mantle could be reduced with little affect on their play.
Click to expand...

And here is where you've hit the crux of the issue: little effect on play. You claim that raid guilds will suddenly become farm guilds and just skip a bunch of teirs of content to use shadowsilk, but that is ridiculously unlikely and certainly hasn't happened yet. I sincerely doubt your concern is at all real.

Someday an enterprising guild might try something like that, but it would have to actually succeed, and do it faster than raiding, before we'd have a problem.
 
Hasnt happened? Fomelo almost any lower end raiding guild, look at the amount of Imp Hide/Shadow Silk worn, look at the untouched WW dragons/LoTD/DFS nameds (Yinzara is only consistently killed for her ring, and even then it's usually by single groups) , the never used Ornate Armor, and then rethink your argument. It isnt unlikely, and it's in the process of happening, whether you choose to believe it or not.
 
Also, even if your argument wasnt entirely false, it still doesnt hold water on the basis of "well it hasnt happened yet, so for now we are fine." The fact is, even if a guild isnt going the tradeskill item route, they certainly should be atm. You could basically remove all ornate armor, for example, with statless items as a bottleneck for combine without affecting the game in the slightest (minus the bp and legs which are only useful as clicky items), and I think that stinks.
 
Upgrade draconic/stormforged, and ornate as well (because it sucks hard and it's usually more effort to get then farming the plat to buy the same piece of TS armor).

WW dragons are untouched because the loot sucks, I don't think LoTD has been killed since charm was fixed vs. PCs, and I seriously don't see an issue with Mantle of the Forest able to have 160 mana or whatever. Let the non-raiders have their gear too.
 
Ok, let them have their gear. Fix up CMal loots, add more no drop items to exp zones, it's as simple as that. Resellable items that compare with CoD loot and droppable armor sets that are much better than 99% of the stuff on the first couple of raid tiers dont make any sense, since casual or not youre spending a lot less time and effort achieving the amount of platinum needed to buy the items.
 
Except that it would take much much longer than one week to farm enough cash to buy a mantle of the forest, for one, and for two, it would take even longer particularly if it were still currently an upgrade for you. This is of course, not to mention, that if you're a casual player and want to be able to own raid level type gear, your playtime isn't going to be conducive to spending all your time farming for cash - and it will take you longer.

Making the items no drop might conserve the market for the tradeskillers, but it would also significantly devalue the items, effectively lowering what the tradeskillers can get out of it. So you're really not going to win with that situation. But perhaps we should ask current tradeskillers if they feel like they've been significantly hurt by competing with resales of their own gear. My guess is no.

I really do like the idea of having tradeskillers, who have sunk so much time, money, and energy into a skill, being able to recoup their costs and even have it be a profitable trade on the side. To do so you have to be able to compete with what's out there. Perhaps there do need to be some tweaks to the system - and this is something that Wiz has already promised to look at.
 
I do not see how making tradeskill crafted items would devalue the market. What devalues the tradeskill market is ALWAYS too many items stacking up and pressing down the price. See mithril/dalium.
 
Jun said:
Hasnt happened?  Fomelo almost any lower end raiding guild, look at the amount of Imp Hide/Shadow Silk worn, look at the untouched WW dragons/LoTD/DFS nameds (Yinzara is only consistently killed for her ring, and even then it's usually by single groups) , the never used Ornate Armor, and then rethink your argument.  It isnt unlikely, and it's in the process of happening, whether you choose to believe it or not. 
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha, if that's what you want low-tier guilds to farm, you're insane. What possible guild could you gear up on WW/LoTD/DFS? My god, I can name half a dozen xp zones that could actually fill all your slots and do it with far better gear. And ornate? If you mean that garbage you make with the nodrop patterns, why not just have them wear soft leather and eat cake instead?

Jun said:
Also, even if your argument wasnt entirely false, it still doesnt hold water on the basis of "well it hasnt happened yet, so for now we are fine."  The fact is, even if a guild isnt going the tradeskill item route, they certainly should be atm.  You could basically remove all ornate armor, for example, with statless items as a bottleneck for combine without affecting the game in the slightest (minus the bp and legs which are only useful as clicky items), and I think that stinks.
Click to expand...

If you want to change items, the onus is on you to provide evidence that the change is necessary. Me saying "what you say is going to happen has not happened and does not seem to be about to happen" is perfectly valid.

Jun said:
Ok, let them have their gear.  Fix up CMal loots, add more no drop items to exp zones, it's as simple as that.  Resellable items that compare with CoD loot and droppable armor sets that are much better than 99% of the stuff on the first couple of raid tiers dont make any sense, since casual or not youre spending a lot less time and effort achieving the amount of platinum needed to buy the items.
Click to expand...

All you did here was repeat the same dumb arguments but claim a lot less should be done because of them. Granted, it's good that you're scaling back your position, but come now--if it wasn't true before, it isn't true now, and just because what you're asking for is less absurd doesn't make you any more correct. You're comparing the worst reward-vs-effort raid mobs to the best reward-vs-effort ts and crying that the ts is better. That's, simply put, stupid. If TS loot was actually worse than WW drag loot, or tofs loot, or any of the other things you think lowbie guilds should slave away on, nobody would ever, ever, ever ts.
 
The ornate that is being referred to is the ornate dragon/giant armor which across the board has pretty unfortunate stats (maybe its just dated? not sure when it was implemented) considering you need to get ally, farm the armor pieces, and get the NDHK/SE gems. Right now its pretty much just a requirement to get combine, with the exception of the BP which has the nice hp/mana buff.
 
Wiz said before that tradeskills items would increase on demand. True.

As you know I'm a tailor. Been a tailor for a few months, and I got near 0 demands, outside the casual "sell me an augment". Basically cause there was dropable stuff better than MOST TS stuff. TS stuff was pretty much a way to gear an alter for those who can afford high prices, and don't want to farm certain nameds.

Now, just yesterday, I was asked for 7 pieces of imphide armor, 5 augments, and a couple random requests more.

Taking in consideration that high level tailoring stuff requires a LOT of farming, or a lot of money to buy it, it isn't like ths demand can be satisfied in just 5 mins. Add failure rates to that. So, yeah, prices are gonna be increased, that's just logical, since there's MORE demand, but the offer is still the same.

Anyway, I agree it's not fair (not fair at all) that I (for example) go farming for 10 hours, and tailor some imp hide BP, sell it to some random guy who just saved 3k (imo it's still cheap, and people were offering 2.5 k before they got "upgraded") just so he uses it for 2 weeks, get an upgrade, and sells it for 5k.

TS can be an alternative for raiding, yes, and , if there was some REALLY long ass farms (like a full set with same farm time than MotF or RoFW) I'd agree with that. As it is, best TS'd items are imp/shadow silk/deepmetal. And they are, indeed, comparable to NtoV/poT/poA (and even CoD) drops. You just need a single tailor/smither, who can be even a non-guildie. now get a bunch of levels 50 to farm stuff (they can handle it, don't look me like that.... think about 18 levels 50 farming Kedge). If they farm same time than most raids take, farming every day, they all can be top geared in 1 month... oh, and, a level 65 REALLY wanting to become a master tailor, can do it in 1-2 months, without using money to buy materials....

Now, let's check the raid route.... You start at first tier named animals, getting some gear for future encounters, after that, you jump to them giants/dragons, and kill their lesser stuff, minor PoA, minor PoT, HoM, Ntov, upper PoT, upper PoA.... getting 2 drops per named, and some of them drops rotting. It takes MORE than 3 months of raiding every night to gear 18 ppl that way, and they will STILL have some pieces worse than those who went and bought from a tailor.

So, as it is, is not an alternative. It's a shortcut. Let's not forget they are ALSO dropable (TS stuff). So, if I, a cleric, am geared with imphide, and want to change my main to a ranger, for example, just need to get ranger to 45, give him the stuff, and here, I have a level 45 ranger with stuff equivalent to NtoV/CoD raid gear... and he just killed 200 mobs (yes, it's doable. You just have to group the ranger level 1, and sit her near fight, do it while you farm the stuff for that imphide armor, even).

I can understand TS'd sets needed a boost, to make them more appealing, but, let's not forget they are DROPABLE. Making DROPABLE with recommended (not required) comparable to best NO DROP stuff is plain silly, imo, and trivializes low level raiding, since it's much better just to farm them materials... I mean... who'd kill lavascale, when you can get better armor killing easier mobs, even if you're gonna take the raid route?

So... this is gonna be throwing stones to myself (and my way to get money) but... in order to balance this, TS's reagents drop rate should be nerfed even more, so it would be SAME effort getting a full set of imphide than raiding over months to get a full set of raid armor. (And yes, I know tht saying this I lose any right to complain about drop rates, but I think it's only way to balance TS and still make it a real alernative)
 
I agree with Zaira. Just would like to point out....Imphide, Exquisite augs, and all the rest of the combines that need 250+ to be combined SHOULD be extremely rare. The other items you skill up on to get to 250 can remain the same, and wouldn't even hurt to have a boost in the drop rates. ESPECIALLY, if the last ointment for tailoring is changed completely. As it is now, it has the basis of the ointment previous in skill to it. I suggest to change all of it's ingredients. OR, use the actual Blue Ointment, only for the E.Q. Augs/Imp stuff, you need to add one or two components to the Blue Ointment. These components should only drop from raid mobs and hard to farm zones. Zones where it would be really difficult, if not next to impossible for a raid of 18 level 50's to farm the stuff. This way you DO NOT have tons of level 45's running around in full Imphide with E.Q. augs in 2 slots of each.

To me, this would solve the problem. It shouldn't be taking years to get the 250 skill in a trade. But yes, it should take a great deal of time to be able to use that 250 skill. I.E. 250 skill should only be used by level 65's that have crap tons of AA's and are on or nearing the end raid game. This way, for example, my Lvl 64 Necro with 6 AA's shouldn't have a problem getting to 250 Tailoring, but until she spends more time in the game progressing, she will be unable to use that 250 skill. IMO, Wyvern/Wyrm armors that you skill up on to 250 are appropriate for a level 64 for to be making and skilling up on.

IMHO, this, along with making them no drop once worn, would solve the issues that we are having with Tradeskill armors.
 
I just want to point out... with the exception of the 2 most difficult tailoring TS combines, no tradeskilled items have focus effects. (robe/mantle)

That said, I think it's incredibly rediculous for you all to be saying components for tradeskills should drop off raid mobs. That move alone will cripple the TS market.

My suggestion is to make some, if not all, of the components for TS combines no drop.

Making it impossible for said level 50 necromancer to go farm all the comps, and pay a 250 tailor 500pp to combine some shadow silk.

It is too easy to come by shadow silk, and imphide armor.

I think deepmetal is still perfectly balanced seeing as the failure rate is insane, and the ore is difficult to mine.

I am personally a huge fan of the TS item changes, they give demand for TS'ers, and they revitalize all the older armors and gears.

However, you still won't see me wearing a shadow silk cloak dual augmented over Sultan cloak. It jsut won't happen.
 
You've got to be joking about thinking I meant the ornate pattern armor. It's pretty obvious that I meant Ornate/Draconic Stormforged, I even made reference to it being a bottleneck for combine.
 
Anybody who is 65 can farm the cash to be completely outfitted in these tradeskilled items now, whereas people work their butts off raiding and the items they atain aren't close to them? Mantle of the Forest is so rediculous now if you put 60 extra mana in it. Heck, any shadowsilk armor with an extra 60 is all a person would need until they reach prison level I'd say.

One suggest I would have is so that you can't have the same type of augment on a piece of armor twice. So for example, you could only have one +mana aug and the other would have to be of a stat or resist or hitpoint. That would still give a bigger benefit to crafters and not trivialize raid encounters and their loots.
 
Jamen said:
One suggest I would have is so that you can't have the same type of augment on a piece of armor twice. So for example, you could only have one +mana aug and the other would have to be of a stat or resist or hitpoint. That would still give a bigger benefit to crafters and not trivialize raid encounters and their loots.
Click to expand...

That's not a bad idea IMO.
 
Riesen said:
That said, I think it's incredibly rediculous for you all to be saying components for tradeskills should drop off raid mobs.
Click to expand...

I see no reason why raid quality tradeskill item components SHOULDN'T come from raid quality mobs
 
Tryfaen said:
I see no reason why raid quality tradeskill item components SHOULDN'T come from raid quality mobs
Click to expand...

I think the whole point of tradeskills is that people have an alternative to raiding, especially those who are casual gamers. If you are making the whole game based around raiding, even some gear which is raid quality, then these people will hit a wall at level 65 and will inevitably quit due to lack of things to do. I dont really see why this is such a huge deal. Yes, some tradeskill items are going to be grossly overpowered now, but its not like everybody doesnt have equal opportunity to get these items. If your primary argument is it allows people to skip content, then guess what? You werent around when there were no pop aas and content was limited to DHK/SE/poair and potorment. You think those people complained and bitched and moaned when things were added so that people below them could skip things like WW dragons, LOTD, e/wdhk? What about all the mini raid mobs such as Gnok, Taraztu, Lavascale, AWT and Plaguefang. These things werent around back in the day and people that were raiding then had to farm alot harder for a minimal increase in power as opposed to the majority of people now. This doesnt even take into account tradeskill items BEFORE they had 2 aug slots added to them which also allowed for people to skip a lot of content. Hell this doesnt even take into account augs which also allowed for more content to be skipped. But I didnt see you guys complaining then.

That being said, I think your suggestion of having two different augs on one item (neither being the same) is a good idea and would work out well if it could be implemented properly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom