Magician balancing suggestions

Rurho said:
This is correct. In zones where levitate is restricted so is the air form. I like the idea of the pet sharing the resists of the form used. But as stated, levitate would have to be removed from the air form or you would be restricted from using it in some zones. Personally I would rather see these AAs changed to pet buffs, but I will get to that later. Below are the current forms and the abilities gained at the 3rd(final) rank. These forms cost a total of 18 AAS.

Fire form - Increase DS by 30, increase mana by 4 per tick, increase int by 20, increase attack by 100

Earth form - increase mana by 4 per tick, increase Sta by 20, increase hitpoints by 200 (does not stack with combine)

Water form - Enduring breath, increase mana by 4 per tick, increase hitpoints by 15 per tick

Air form - Levitate, increase mana by 4 per tick, See invis, increase all resists by 25(levitate restricted in some zones)

Maybe these AAs could be changed to pet buffs, rather then self buffs. Each form would share its type of resists between the pet and the mage. And give the pet a special ability depending on the form used. As it stands Mages do not use any of the other pets after relic pet is obtained. What if the relic pet could be stripped of his abilities. Instead of a big DS, or the proc, spells like druid DS and Rbow could replace them. Then each form could add something different that could stack with these things. Below are examples of how the pet forms could affect the pet different ways.

Fire form - Shares fire resists with mage, increase DS by 15(stacks with druid or mage DS), increase attack by 100

Earth form - Shares Disease and Poison resists with mage, Increase AC by 250, increase HP by 250 procs a root like earth pet.

Water form - Shares cold resists with mage, procs a slow(not sure on %) increase HP by 25 per tick

Air form - Shares magic resists with mage, adds a stun/dmg proc(stacks with Relic blades of war), increase pet haste by 9%

These are just examples of what the AAs could do, If they were changed to a pet buff instead of self. Also the abilities gained on top of resists would only apply to the relic pet. the lower end pets would only get the resist buff. Some mages may disagree and really like these AAs in their current form. I find them almost useless, and would much rather see the pets benefit from them.

As for the pet heal, I would still like to see the recast cut in half. The current 20 second recast is just way to long.

In terms of the elemental forms, stacking issues would still need a looksee with certain ones for this proposed change to have any value. Thread here on it discussing those: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=14584.0. This may be best served as separate thread though in terms of balancing these.

Obviously I would be loathe to remove the small amount of mana regen we do get. But I do like the proc variety proposed in conjunction with having a relic pet, who is a one trick pony.
 
Rurho said:
Fire form - Shares fire resists with mage, increase DS by 15(stacks with druid or mage DS), increase attack by 100

Earth form - Shares Disease and Poison resists with mage, Increase AC by 250, increase HP by 250 procs a root like earth pet.

Water form - Shares cold resists with mage, procs a slow(not sure on %) increase HP by 25 per tick

Air form - Shares magic resists with mage, adds a stun/dmg proc(stacks with Relic blades of war), increase pet haste by 9%

As for the pet heal, I would still like to see the recast cut in half. The current 20 second recast is just way to long.

Yah, these would rock, altho id rather on the Fire Form be a fire proc like the non relics elementals, higher dmg then other forms procs.

vistachiri said:
That is correct

Also I believe I would be remiss if I did not point out some minor problem inherent in changing the current archaic. Lack of a decent fire dd at the high end. As a possible viable solution here, without increasing much the overall dps of the class.

Storm of steel=> change this, or bladewind to fire based. Bladewind would make slightly more sense to change if we go by a fire magic fire magic kind of pattern. Dps of this spell upgraded to bladewind's in any case I would suggest.
Relic: Bladewind => See above notes. Dps of this spell changed to archaic's current.
Maelstrom of electricity => changed to fire based (would leave 2 magic rains still present as well in the spell lineup)
Relic: Storm of the elements => same, best spell we have, bar none.
Archaic: New fire rain.

This way we keep what variety we have, and add some, without crippling other dps, and also mostly without changing the dps of the class overmuch. As for parses etc, using 2 rains is higher dps than using any of our dd's in rapid succession. So I do not think this would make us too powerful in terms of pre-archaic, or even pre-relic in terms of the proposed changes with storm of steel.

Also in terms of heal and soloing too well? Rangers, druids, would still be far more effective soloers. Decreasing to 10 seconds wouldn't increase our soloing ability into the realms of ridiculousness. Currently I think my gloves are the only set present on the server. 30% increase in the healing of the 64 heal. Takes 2 minutes give or take 20 seconds depending on time of day, to heal the pet from say 5-10%. Thank the heavens for mend, or soloing as a mage would more often take the form of soloing like a wizard.

Yep, i also agree to these. We are far from been the best soloin class around . . . so its not overpowered to reduce our re use timer on heal, or make it heal for more points of dmg.

The Idea of Changing the spells would be aweasome as well. to balance the Fire/magic nukes.
 
Ryei said:
Yah, these would rock, altho id rather on the Fire Form be a fire proc like the non relics elementals, higher dmg then other forms procs.

These were just some ideas I came up with a while back, but never posted about it. Please feel free to add, or change the abilities I had posted. I thought it was just a good way to get the idea ball rolling :keke:
 
Unless npc and pc resists work differently.I really don't see why a mage's pet gaining ALL of his master's resists would be overpowered.
 
Rurho's suggestion of using the AA forms to affect the pet is excellent. Part of the fun lost once getting the relic pet, is choosing different pets to suit the certain situation.

As the AAs stand currently they are almost completely useless. Air is the only good one, Earth is literally totally useless (unless you haven't got around to getting a combine bp), and Fire/Water are only there when levi can't be used. With codexes in, no mage in their right mind would buy more than Air + Fire or Water.

Obviously the finer details of changing the forms to affect pets will need some work, but in principle I think this would be a very good idea.

The petheal would still need to be improved in addition to this, and the Archaic too really, but this would help somewhat with pet resists.
 
After reviewing my proposed changes, I saw some flaws with the idea. Below are some changes I made.

Fire form - Pet shares fire resists with mage, increase pet atk by 20, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Water form - Pet shares Cold resists with mage, increase pet HP regen by 20 per tick, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Earth form - Pet shares Disease/Poison resists with mage, increase pet AC by 75, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Air form - Pet shares Magic resists with mage, increase pet haste by 10%, FT4 overcap(like current versions)
 
Rurho said:
After reviewing my proposed changes, I saw some flaws with the idea. Below are some changes I made.

Fire form - Pet shares fire resists with mage, increase pet atk by 20, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Water form - Pet shares Cold resists with mage, increase pet HP regen by 20 per tick, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Earth form - Pet shares Disease/Poison resists with mage, increase pet AC by 75, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Air form - Pet shares Magic resists with mage, increase pet haste by 10%, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Its still good imo, id love to see what Wiz has to say about these stuff, or whoever has the power to make the changes happen (if they happening). Also The healing re use timer or more points healed per cast thing...

All sugestions are really good, we just need now to know what the staff/whoever is in charge of those changes think about it.
 
I guess the FT is not over cap, but still a nice feature for mages that are not Full FT, and for soloing :)
 
Rurho said:
I guess the FT is not over cap, but still a nice feature for mages that are not Full FT, and for soloing :)

Oh it's not? Idk about that then. I'd rather see some of them keep part of their current effects if its not. Like the 25 to all resists w/air, etc.

Though I still think a tome would the the way to go on this for resists. Then have the petforms convey 1 or two useful pet mods, and some of the original effects. Some just plain aren't needed, like waterbreathing and levitate on water and airform respectively. Seeing as we have both of those spells in item form already. The atk for the mage on fireform is pretty unnecessary, and earth has always been kind of slim. The ds is fun, but prolly pretty unnecessary on the mage themselves. Only time I use it for that now is if for some reason I can't use air or water, or if I happen to be tanking a low 65 group, or like duoing aisling/imeriaz or something like that.
 
Rurho said:
After reviewing my proposed changes, I saw some flaws with the idea. Below are some changes I made.

Fire form - Pet shares fire resists with mage, increase pet atk by 20, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Water form - Pet shares Cold resists with mage, increase pet HP regen by 20 per tick, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Earth form - Pet shares Disease/Poison resists with mage, increase pet AC by 75, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

Air form - Pet shares Magic resists with mage, increase pet haste by 10%, FT4 overcap(like current versions)

I'm not entirely sure how possible it would be to share resists with a player coding-wise. Also since it would be a pet buff then caster stats (4 FT) would likely get dropped off completely.

What if instead of "sharing resists" each AA would bestow upon your pet the given stats you list (AC/haste/etc) and then add 200 of whichever resist (magic, cold, fire, poison/dis)?

Also, if you change the resists so they don't get hit as much, would healing changes be needed? Or vice versa?
 
Allielyn said:
I'm not entirely sure how possible it would be to share resists with a player coding-wise. Also since it would be a pet buff then caster stats (4 FT) would likely get dropped off completely.

What if instead of "sharing resists" each AA would bestow upon your pet the given stats you list (AC/haste/etc) and then add 200 of whichever resist (magic, cold, fire, poison/dis)?

Also, if you change the resists so they don't get hit as much, would healing changes be needed? Or vice versa?

I'm kind of divided on it now b/c of the whole not over cap revelation...or is it? I'm still confused about that. If not dropping it would be better for high end, worse for low end. Though it would need tweaking as to have it be comparable to what the elemental forms do now (- current stacking problems in terms of use evaluation). I still think resists for a pet would be far better in a tome.

As for the 2nd part yes, then no. Part of the major problem with healing having so large of a recast is soloing. Healing your pet takes quite a while, creating far longer downtime. One is better off in most cases, not using it, or using it very sparingly, and just doing the best one can manage to kite things. Which is a ridiculous pain in the ass without a snare. Thus mages cannot really effectively pet kite. Without mend companion? Pretty much just don't bother. At least certainly not on mobs that hit for a decent amount. Not that you can't actually kill them, it's more the amount of downtime healing your pet afterwards (because you certainly won't keep up to par on the fight), is generally huge. This also comes into play in groups, where pets occasionally offtank, and we can't really heal them worth a crap leading to the aforementioned, don't bother trying, just blow stuff up. Taking an otherwise valuable role a mage might provide, and tossing it mostly out the window.

The other part of the problem comes into play on raids. A different thing entirely because if your pet gets aggro on a raid. Well it's dead. So the mobs actually attacking it, are rare. Same thing if you manage to get aggro on a mage. Pretty much dead 90% of the time (unless your healers are really really really spot on, or have you targeted already for some reason). The big problem healing it then comes in with ae's. Places where they are frequent, which are quite numerous, we cannot keep a pet up alone, and most of the time, the healers have better things to do than to worry about the mage pet constantly. Our best option in this general case is to spam the mend companion aa and pray. Or cast the heal if you have it up. I generally do not bother on a raid. The spell slots are more important to use for other things, rather than a spell that will probably not be up if you really actually need it.

To clarify, do we want 0 recast? Well it would be a fantastic x-mas present. But too powerful. Do we want the large recast we have now, no, certainly not. There are many problems inherent with it, and I don't see it making us ultimately powerful either compared to other classes in terms of what we can solo, which was a problem originally cited in the thread about the change to a recast itself. I've seen classes without pets, or with terrible ones, do far more ludicrous soloing. The recast was originally added, back when pets were mitigating 50% of damage. Certainly no or a low recast and 50% mitigation..makes it more powerful than it should be. So the recast was added, and then mitigation was fixed. At least this was my understanding of the situation from the plethora of threads about it. Like I said in the last thread about the mitigation bug, if I'm wrong about the timeline there, someone please jump in. Personally I think a 10 second recast would be appropriate. Though it would warrant actual field testing.

Thus while I have been relatively long winded about it, a resist change would help in terms of raids. The other part of the problem would still be present. A healing change would help in terms of all parts of the problem. So possibly no need for a resist change. At least not a drastic aa one. A tome would still probably be a good addition at some point, but not completely necessary for the class. It's like patch v. core problem. Core problem is when they're getting blasted, beat on, chewed up, etc. We can't really help all that well, other than recalling it and taking the hits ourselves. Which of course doesn't work in terms of ae's, because we are already taking those hits. The patch is increasing the resists with an aa set. Which if the stacking problems were fixed, with some slight modifications (stacking issues and nonsense parts, like the atk on fire form), all would be worthwhile the way they are. It would patch a bit of one problem sure, but would do nothing to the others. Taking it to tomes, would put it so that mage pets would not be ludicrously resistant during low end raiding, but it would certainly help with the mid-high end if one wishes to put the effort into the character. Which makes sense to me.
 
I would say, that both changes has to be done... pets gotta get more resists for raidwise, and our re use timer on pet heal gotta be changed to atleast 10 secs.

What if instead of pet sharing our resists, or makin em like clickable AAs... Would it be possible to make pet share like... ~40% of our resists? or something like that? Instead of sharing FULL resists, but a part of it. i think that would do.
 
I agree with Rurho on the Archaic solution it seems completely reasonable for the mage to get something inline with what it has. As for the healing situation, as I have played a mage to 65 and played one several times on raids, I completely agree with the pet is way to fragile. There has been some good solutions to this problem, but I was curious on another (Unsure weather the client can hold it or not). If you could bring in pet equipment that the mage summons. That way you could add some big +resists and other smaller stats to allow the pet to have a nice bonus while fighting raid mobs, but not overpowering them vs. normal mobs.
 
Allielyn said:
Also since it would be a pet buff then caster stats (4 FT) would likely get dropped off completely.
Would it be possible to make it a debuff on your pet with a recourse attached that would effect you? Have it do a check on the caster's said resist, and add that much to the pet?

And is it that sharing resists with your pet would be uncodable, or is it that it is seen as too overpowering?
 
Allielyn said:
I mean uncodable. But I'm not a coder, so take that with a grain of salt!

It does kind of sound that way. I'm not even sure if resists would be codeable in a tome. But seeing as pet dmg can go up as a result of the power tomes (apparently, though I don't think anyone is high enough in tomes to check), I figure resists are possible that way.
 
vistachiri said:
[...] But seeing as pet dmg can go up as a result of the power tomes [...]
I know for fact that this works with mimicd nukes from a WIZ pet, if that helps anything.
 
Nwaij said:
I know for fact that this works with mimicd nukes from a WIZ pet, if that helps anything.

that helps a bit actually, though I was more wondering in terms of melee damage, which would be really hard to see. But with that it should work. Not definite I'd think, as there would still be the outside off chance that there was a bug making it fail on melee damage. But we'll know eventually for sure anyways I suppose once someone with a pet completes 2 or 3 tomes. I mean I'm reasonably sure it works. But not sure sure y'know?
 
Archaiced Mages, please let me know if the new archaic is any good :) *curious*

and, if the Pet Heal could be looked at, id also love...

PS:. Thanks for the archaic change. I hope its now good dps.
 
The archaic is very good. I parsed it last night and was fairly impressed. Hopefully that was the first change in a series of changes for the Mage class to get it to be a bit more balanced again.
 
Back
Top Bottom