Magician balancing suggestions
- Thread starter Rurho
- Start date
Agreed, the archaic is very good. I was very impressed with it. However, the issue still remains with the pet heal. As it stands, 10% every 20 seconds is not even close to being able to keep the pet up in the face of an AE. Mages are forced to sit their pets on the bench until there are no more AE's.
ryutakin
Dalayan Beginner
I don't play a mage but I do have a pet. The mage pet heal is 200 less than the beastlord petheal but the mage pet has quite a bit more health than the beastlord pet. I'm thinking either beastlords aren't complaining or mages are missing something. When it comes to AE's we can use a 60 to all resists buff for our pet. I'm thinking maybe mages want something like this but they can raise their pets resists in much higher ways than we can, so that trumps us. The only stat mages won't raise so much is MR but that can't be the deciding factor.
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
ryutakin said:
Mages do NOT get regular heals like beastlords. I'm not sure about BST pet heal recast but those are two points that should be mentioned because targetable heals change the situation A LOT - Glim can be a worthwhile padhealer when shit goes really downhill.
Edit: Typos
JayelleNephilim
"Helpy Helper"
ryutakin said:
I agree. It's called parking the pet BEHIND the mob. I've noticed that some pet classes (ie: necro/mage) rarely run their pet behind the mob, but others are more likely to (ie: beastlords). I suppose it's easier for a melee class to think about doing something like this, but more people need to take the 6 secs to do so. Granted that won't help out with AEing mobs, but it still helps in general.
As for pet heals (eg: healing because of AEs), I think that perhaps the recast could be taken down a notch, but for the most part I really don't see how you can boost mage pet heals w/o shafting what I assumed was supposed to be the #1 pet class: the beastlord. As an aside, I aslo agree silkies could use more choices for healing increment items, ironic I know.
I'm curious what finally swayed the "juice up magicians" decision (not that I'm complaining). Last I heard Magicians were said to be right where Wiz wanted them DPS wise. This was of course after he fixed Monster Summoning, beefed up the pet focuses and shortened the relic casting timer (yes I know that was changed back recently). Not to mention the recent haste item for pets fix (thanks TM).
JayelleNephilim said:
i put my pet behind all the time, and still, if the druid is not doing Group heals often my pet dies without the barrier ward thing, and as well all know sometimes the barrier thing IS down.
Asides that, as i mentioned before, i am not complaining here just in raids situantions, when we also solo, it sux! And cmom, we should be one of the best soloing classes in game . . .
As it have been mentioned before, even if the pet heal goes to 10 secs re use timer, i just dont see HOW would it overpower us mages... we would still be far from the best soloing class . . .
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Ryei said:
Completely agreed. Having experienced a large portion of the content in the game, and parking the pet behind the mob (in some situations, explanation below), it doesn't help much. What does it help on? Raiding. Why? If your pet pulls aggro on a raid...it is dead. If you manage to actually press pet recall in the .3 seconds it will take for it to become dead, there's a good chance you get summoned, and then you are dead. This is why your pet getting damaged other than on ae's on raids is not really a factor. The funny part however, is if you do park the pet behind the mob...which seems like a good idea..you're contributing less. Behind mob=>no aux tanking. So really if it's not going to go down in a startling amount of time by attacking from the front, it is better to have it attacking the front. The pain in the ass part is begging for heals for it because yours are gimp, and mend should be saved for emergencies.
What does it not help on? Groups/soloing. Also soloing for mages, which used to be good, blows. Mostly as a result of the formerly no recast pet heal, going to 30 seconds. Making trying to actually keep the thing up, wasted effort. I've gotten far better results mostly ignoring the pet completely while soloing when I'm doing more difficult things that are rootable. Pretty much why I made a druid, and quit my mage for the aforementioned druid. If I'm dragging one around with me anyways, I might as well just play one.
JayelleNephilim said:
Fairly simply actually, seeing as beastlords also have chloroblast, a targetable heal, and can heal themselves, in addition to filling up the gulf with the recast. Effectively making their recast more insignificant (which it already is). Also, the beastlord heal, already heals for more. Recast reduction doesn't shaft beastlords one bit. In addition just off the top of my head, I've seen beast pets tank far better than mage pets quite a few times. Suggesting to me that the pets themselves are already sturdier.
Also, while I do agree the selection of healing inc items for mages is mighty slim, they are also utterly and completely pointless to actually have at the moment, owing to the recast. Having had HincV, and now having the new 30% bonus effect. They really don't make a bit of difference seeing as the only heal we have worth using, which isn't an AA, takes so long to recast. I don't believe after my observations of using it for so long (for lack of a better slot item) that it really should be a consideration at the moment for any mage, regardless of level, in terms of planning out their gear. The effect in the end will mean a weaker item for any particular slot its in, and the effect will not be worth it. Between a choice at the moment of a healing increment VII item and an item without the effect and 10-20 higher mana. No contest, I'd take the higher mana. The only time I ever see them used, is when they are the best item for that particular slot available to someone at that point, or they just haven't figured out how insignificant it is with our recast.
Dzillon
Dalayan Master
From what I notice BST pet heal is 10 sec recast not 30 (Ryu still bugged maybe ?), MAG is 20 : maybe something (the only thing) to look into.
Otherwise a BST pet heal doing more damage doesn't seem totally unfair, they heal well cause they're sort of a healer class a little bit, as well as the crit chance (helps a lot sometimes) and maybe more advantages in gear about Healing increment.
Pets can't be balanced only for high end raid situtions, just suck it up, or have someone dedicated at taking care of them if you consider it's worth it. Mages pets have already nifty tricks to compensate better healing & Keshuval's Protection (no one talks about their free 25% death save !).
The auxtanking problem is indeed annoying , but consider your pet as temporary on some fights I guess. Any other help to this might overpower mages which is already a strong dps class.
Otherwise a BST pet heal doing more damage doesn't seem totally unfair, they heal well cause they're sort of a healer class a little bit, as well as the crit chance (helps a lot sometimes) and maybe more advantages in gear about Healing increment.
Pets can't be balanced only for high end raid situtions, just suck it up, or have someone dedicated at taking care of them if you consider it's worth it. Mages pets have already nifty tricks to compensate better healing & Keshuval's Protection (no one talks about their free 25% death save !).
I don't buy that you get summoned in that case, you don't share the aggro with your pet at this crucial moment you're defining. And how do pets get aggro over a MT when not taunting (and I hope without taunting echo) anyway ?
The auxtanking problem is indeed annoying , but consider your pet as temporary on some fights I guess. Any other help to this might overpower mages which is already a strong dps class.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
vistachiri said:
I just doublechecked--the Relic mage pet is better than the bst pet. Not better by a super-huge amount, but better by enough; a good boost in AC, Hp, and (probably most importantly) 3 levels higher. The rest of your points might be good, they might not; I don't know enough about mage pet healery to comment. I just wanted to check the pet tanking thing.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Thinkmeats said:
I was actually hoping you did
. Wasn't completely certain, just seemed that way to me. Possible the bst attacking with the pet may have caused it (the auxtanking)? Or could be a buff discrepancy. Nah didn't say it was unfair. Beast should do more with their petheal. Personally I think the recast on bst heal might warrant a lowering as well. Mage petheal is far too high for it to be of much use. Far more of an advantage in healing increment I'd think (though I've never really paid attention to bst gear), though as I said, this doesn't matter much. 9khp pet, and I'm popping off 1700 heals with 30% hinc. At that rate I'll just use the lasanth robe clicky, regen, mend, and the clicky necro bond on the orb of transmutive life among other things, and save myself a spell slot, and the mana.Dzillon said:
Dzillon said:
No, no one does. One could explore reasons for this. Including in a raid situation, if it goes off, chances are it's dead very shortly anyways. That coupled with it's rare tendency to go off at any other time (and if it does, there is a reasonable chance that it will still be beating on you, or the pet, and the pet will not be long for this world due to your inability to heal it effectively in between blowing things up). Point is, only thing it saves you on a raid is a bit of mana. Now other nifty tricks. Well lets see....hmm. Well rune procs got reduced a long while ago. So you can't be really referring to those. Pet recall is shared by many classes. Can't be that then. Ancient burnout and frenzied burnout are nifty in groups, one is standard (without which it becomes evident as the pet does not have it when it runs out), and one has quite a recast, better saved for emergencies (in the case of groups or soloing) or in the case of raiding bosses. Lets see....other pet buffs...other pet buffs.....well there's taloks (short duration, very annoying, very situational). Oh petsow...yeah thats not it...hrmm. Surely you're not talking about barrier ward (which was already discussed) which has a fairly long recast? Not seeing alot of nifty tricks in my bag o'petmagery to compensate for the lack of an effective pet heal.
Dzillon said:
Inherent lack of an aggro reduction mechanism while the two classes above you in burst dps, are very well equipped with one. Chances are if you've been doing your job, you are going to get nailed if your pet manages to get aggro. Or on the chance the tank loses it? Guess who is first to go? (Especially true in the tiers before archaics) This is with using rains only even mind you. Using single target nukes chained is not only a terrible way to go in terms of dps, but also a terrible way to go in terms of aggro. About 20-40ish% chaining nukes on eternal statues with moderate dps on them from the rest of the raid during a typical fight, and you'll be dangerously close to getting it (assuming old nonarchaic rain setup). Pet tends to get the most aggro directly after a proc. While this is not a problem on raids usually (as the tiers are approximately the same, or preferably mt higher). This is a definite problem in groups.
On a side note it was briefly a hilarious problem with raids right after the foelock change. Man Tacotown could hold aggro like a god of war after that.
Dzillon said:
Yes, except when the pet is mostly temporary (see valorb for a good example). Why even bother to summon a pet? It simply becomes an absolute waste of mana, and a source of delay for the raid (one has to wait for the mage to summon a new one, buff it, regain mana, possibly get buffs for it, though this is unlikely, as by then you have been delaying the whole raid so long they probably want to commit various unpleasant acts upon your person). Your suggestion that this would somehow overpower mages in terms of dps.... Exactly how would maintaining what amounts to a bit over a quarter to 30% of our total dps.....through using our mana for heals (which would in fact reduce long term dps (ie oom=>110ish dps, pet only))...be overpowering. Or at least more overpowering than the class would already be in terms of dps if it were in fact overpowered (which it is not). Especially considering rains themselves, which are our superior form of dps, are fairly mana intensive. Let me put it another way. 2 heals=> bout 1 rain. Two heals with no healing increment, we're looking at maybe around 3k hps. 33% or so of a fully relic buffed pets hps. Dps is not being increased one bit. It is being maintained, which we already have the ability to do, unfortunately that ability is poor at best, and in most cases fighting a definitively losing battle. What we are proposing is to increase this ability to adequate.
In addition, this would eliminate alot of the pressing problem of raising pet resists and would be effective across all tiers (as the tome idea really wouldn't be, but is an excellent afterthought idea for pet improvement in this area at higher tiers). Without being overpowering (Pet form resist changes for example have the potential to be what I would think of as fairly overpowering in places such as dhk, etc.)
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Ryei said:
Til's intervening enchantment 25% pet only death save. Fairly decently lasting. Most people forget about it. I am not one of those people. The downside being that if the pet dies, and comes back. You still can't heal it appropriately.
Dzillon
Dalayan Master
Man this guy is tough on negociation I'll leave it at that I'm not experienced enough as a magician to argue more , actually I'd be happy if mages would be happy with what they have. I was mainly referring to the barrier ward in fact, but yeah the recast makes it not as useful as I supposed, and the til's enchantment. Was just trying to show that beastlords, that have been (prolly shouldn't ) thrown into this thread aren't much more comfortable with the situations you mention.
I suppose making the illusion AAs help with pet or a form of shared resist is the way to go then. Gluck on that sincerely.
I'll leave it at that I'm not experienced enough as a magician to argue more , actually I'd be happy if mages would be happy with what they have. I was mainly referring to the barrier ward in fact, but yeah the recast makes it not as useful as I supposed, and the til's enchantment. Was just trying to show that beastlords, that have been (prolly shouldn't ) thrown into this thread aren't much more comfortable with the situations you mention.I suppose making the illusion AAs help with pet or a form of shared resist is the way to go then. Gluck on that sincerely.