Mage changes *post suggestions here, not in SoD discussion*
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vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Mythryn said:
No of course not, though they shouldn't drop in seconds, nor should we be mostly unable to do anything about it because of the huuuuuggge recast on our petheal.
The main reason for problems is probably the massive lack of ac.
It's pretty sad that the ONLY magic dmg focus item drops in Upper Thaz and both the mage relic nuke and relic rain are magic based.
Also grats on picking out the one mob, Glacier, that is obviously ice based and vulnerable to the fire-based mage archaic. How does Awardis' dps compare on the earth/air and fire bosses?
Also grats on picking out the one mob, Glacier, that is obviously ice based and vulnerable to the fire-based mage archaic. How does Awardis' dps compare on the earth/air and fire bosses?
Mythryn said:
Ah, so you did. Sorry, I didn't recognize the name.
My analysis in the Nightfire thread showed a maximum mage dps of about 230 alternating relic rain and relic nuke, with no DI, no crits factored in and certainly no DD focus for magic based spells. Looks like his numbers are just about what you'd expect once these factors are added in. Too bad that Caelin could easily beat those numbers with the upcoming changes to Nightfire. She would most likely pull aggro in a full-burn, but she could space the nukes a bit and still pretty much match his DPS and still have all the other druid abilities.
Like I said earlier (I think in this thread), mages are valuable and lots of fun from 1 to 64. After that, start a twink.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
junius said:
Seeing as how I can think of a few places where before you have pet hold, the pet constantly runs in, other aa's often being more important, most mages I would think, would not get this until fairly late. There are also one group mobs that rampage, imagine that. I wouldn't think regular groups would have a set of ramp tanks laying around all the time.
In the vein of the 63 pets (whom I see as having the largest problems), aisling can take a hit better herself.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Honestly, I think the only way you're going to fix the DPS problem is with gear. Any changes made to spells, resist modifiers, pets or anything of the sort will not only have an effect on your level of playing, but on the high end level as well. Give Relic: Bladewind or Relic: Storm of the Elements and it's just going to make high end mages with better focus effects and archaics EVEN BETTER. The only possible change I can see is to add a magic focus at an earlier level and better returns from companion focus effects. Any other change will unbalance the high end and push mages over wizards.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Jun said:
No you don't but its miiiiiggghhhhtttty pain in the assish to spam the back key, or recall key, and sometimes even with spamming, while casting he runs in and gets owned. I am of course talking about mobs that ae dot or otherwise piss a pet off and make it go all berserkerstyle, my apologies if that wasn't clear. With a relic pet, yes it's possible. With a 63 pet. Good luck. Even with healing increment V it was difficult to say the least because of the negligible amount of our healing + a 30 recast. Granted, we should not be able to heal constantly. But we should certainly I think be able to heal better than we can at the moment. Another issue with many of the magi nerfs that have come down in the past was the bug I'm sure we are all familiar with. Last thread I was curious as to the extent of how long they went on for. I don't believe I ever got an answer. Though one would think if the bug was in existance while all the various nerfs were being patched in, and the actual problem was fixed, we would see some back adjustment in reference to things like our petheal, etc.
There are a few things in here that would help without drastically pushing the high end up. Things such as the better resist mod on certain spells, a different type of nuke (ice for example, would not overpower or push up the highend, rather it would give the entire class as a whole more choice of arsenal, and require more thought into the choosing of different spells, rather than just loading this nuke, and that nuke, and quite frankly most of the time only 1 type due to the vast gulfs in when firenukes are obtained, and especially fire rains). I'm sure most mages would also love to see an upgrade to scars of sigil as well, and if handled properly and properly balanced, there is no reason at all that would imbalance mage dps. As well as perhaps a fire rain somewhere in there, or a modification of one of our already existing higher rains to a fire type, as the 55 sirocco quite frankly doesn't cut it. It would be nice after all to pop over to a different resist type without totally gimping your dps.Mythryn said:
Better returns on companion focuses would be nice, at earlier levels. The addition of a magic focus would be quite a boon.
What I'd like to suggest though is that focuses of damage be looked at in general as to the tiers that they drop in. For example, where is a fire focus on the same tier as the symbol of shojar's chosen? Magic along the lines of it perhaps as well. Where are magic focuses at the same tier as motg ruby, etc. Even to the low level, shamans and wizards get a very early option of a cold focus, other classes do not. Don't get me wrong, there's always the tmap rings, but those you're talking about in the mid 50's, they're valuable but I don't think anyone would object to seeing some of the other one's I've mentioned. Also of note would be a closer look at the tiers of companion health and strength. For a large gap of time at low level's you'll see almost none of it, and these things have typically suffered from very poor variety in terms of amount of pieces, slots they can be put in (for instance companion health is typically a shoulder slot, for a very very looooong time) etc.
Granted there are a few pet suggestions on this thread that I think would be cool and add more variety to the class, I liked the ranged pet suggestion for example, and possibly that might be a pretty good suggestion to make earthpet used after the 61 root is obtained. A type of pet lifefire would be something quite frankly neat and valuable to the class, though as to where it would go, or specific damage, recast etc, that would be debateable.
Various things I've also thought would be pretty neat would be to have the class rather than take on a primarily dps role, would be to take more of a utility role. Having spoken with some of my colleagues about this, most frequenly rurho and brandar, it would be interesting to see various effects added to certain spells of ours. Take manastorm for example. Not only is it a rain, but it purportedly drains mana as well (although as far as the efficacy of this, I really haven't seen much notable difference). Perhaps an expansion or a retuning of these, would be beneficial to the class.
There are some spells that we see little to no use of however so here we go:
Another thing I never saw much point in were the banes, as far as mages and necros as well go. The max level on the destroy part, is absolutely pathetic. By the time you actually get the spell at 65 (as far as disposement goes) you will almost never (and I'm pretty sure with the removal of the old lower level elementals in firstruins after the revamp) use it for that effect. Ever. Granted, if you have very high bane enhancement, it can be used to do a slightly higher amount of damage than bladewind, under very very specific circumstances. What should be done with it, if anything, who knows. It would be nice to see it gain a slight bit more utility however. My off the top of my head suggestions:
Base differences, disposement has higher dmg same cast time and costs 60 more mana.
-Slight debuff? Would certainly make up for the lack of it destroying pretty much anything.
-Raise in max level of the higher version (disposement and the lower destroy have the exact same max level)
-Stun component?
-Mez component?
Really anything that could change this spell and possibly make it useful would be kind of cool. The stun component or debuff being the forerunners in my opinion as to what I'd like to see done (obviously mutually exclusive of each other of course)
A point of curiousity for me was also whether our 2 dots have any debuff component whatsoever. Not really a change per se, just wondering as dots were to have a slight debuff component in them as far as necro ones go, so I'm curious as to whether enchanter dots and the 2 mage one's recieved similar components.
Also as a point of class flavor so to speak, I'm curious as to why while levi, and eb, are both contained in items for us (pertaining to our status as summoners) why invis and see invis are not similarly contained. This obviously would never be an important, necessary or perhaps even worthwhile change. More it would just be something kind of neat.
But anyways thats what I'm coming up with off the top of my head.
JayelleNephilim
"Helpy Helper"
Without concrete proof that magicians need a boost in dps or utility I can only assume nothing will be changed.
So far a lot of things have been discussed and few real parses have been done. I'd like to challenge magicians to start tracking their DPS (for longer periods of time IE: 5 mins at the least per session and multiple sessions to cover a variety of mob types/resists!) and compare it to other classes present. Classes of the same level and that are geared similarly.
Currently Game Companion's mirrors are not working and Y.A.L.P site is down, but if you need a parsing program I can send one to you. Just send me a PM requesting as much and with an email addy I can send it to you until I find a place to host the file.
Without real low-level,mid and end-game parses to compare everything posted so far is circumstantial at best.
So far a lot of things have been discussed and few real parses have been done. I'd like to challenge magicians to start tracking their DPS (for longer periods of time IE: 5 mins at the least per session and multiple sessions to cover a variety of mob types/resists!) and compare it to other classes present. Classes of the same level and that are geared similarly.
Currently Game Companion's mirrors are not working and Y.A.L.P site is down, but if you need a parsing program I can send one to you. Just send me a PM requesting as much and with an email addy I can send it to you until I find a place to host the file.
Without real low-level,mid and end-game parses to compare everything posted so far is circumstantial at best.
I don't think parses are really needed. Isn't it sorta obvious wizards dps is far beyond Mage? Right off the bat wizards have jolt, which means they can nuke more and don't have to hold back. As far as I know mages don't have it. Then there's UBs that happen at a decent rate. And of course the spells themselves aren't anything impressive. Now, maybe a mages role is exactly what it is right now. I know that if their dps was in a wizards range, wizards would be history because you'd have mages who can dps like a wizard AND summon shit AND have a good pet. But, to give mages more dps you wouldn't need new spells or whatever of the like. You could just up their crit chance moderately so that they crit a lot more than a wizard, hence making up for a lackluster spell performance and closing the dps gap between the two. I don't know how you go about making such a change. I don't know if you can make that change. But, it's a really simple change to quickly solve the whole mage blows we're just vendor machines debate, if it can be done.
vistachiri said:
Lets look at this realistically. You have to spam back on these ae mobs iff you are standing in the ae with no way to hide AND you only have to spam back until the ramp tanks are engaged. This should take 15 seconds tops out of a couple minute fight.
Lets play that back. 15 seconds of a 3600 second fight is LOL small amount of the fight spamming back. Beastlords and necros have no problem with this.
Daelius
Dalayan Adventurer
mage's dps just needs to be looked at in a sense of their resist types. I don't believe that mages are shitty dps, but with only fire and magic based nukes and rains, it limits them. If Mages could get an ice spell line (rain or nuke) that would be the way to increase their dps and overall usefulness.
well, since awardis said high end game with uber elite gear, mages are damn nice... i belive we should do something to help em at low lvl, like non relic mages, non archaics...
- add an item with + magic nuke, like 5% +, like someone said.
- make lvl 63 Fire rain spell, cuz serious, using a lvl 55 fire based spell sux...
- add another quick fire nuke, higher lvl one Scars of Sigil is just too old... make it fast/hard nukin, but... maybe not too mana wise.
- add as well, on companion health focus , + resist percentages, like dunno, 10% per point? shrugs.
i belive those 3 things should help...
Altho, i would love to see our pets lasting a litle longer then normal... before that nerf pets were nice, but now they die too fast, like 2 rampages tops and they die. even full buffed.
I got my relic pet now, its nice, but those lvl 63 pets should be looked at.
- add an item with + magic nuke, like 5% +, like someone said.
- make lvl 63 Fire rain spell, cuz serious, using a lvl 55 fire based spell sux...
- add another quick fire nuke, higher lvl one Scars of Sigil is just too old... make it fast/hard nukin, but... maybe not too mana wise.
- add as well, on companion health focus , + resist percentages, like dunno, 10% per point? shrugs.
i belive those 3 things should help...
Altho, i would love to see our pets lasting a litle longer then normal... before that nerf pets were nice, but now they die too fast, like 2 rampages tops and they die. even full buffed.
I got my relic pet now, its nice, but those lvl 63 pets should be looked at.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
junius said:
Let's look at it more realistically, if it's not a relic pet, you have approximately 10 seconds when it gets in range total to pull it back (assuming of course it got aego.) thats on wyverns. Second here, second there, maybe a bit late on a buttonpress and wham, pet down. Necros do have problems with this from what I've seen, possibly more, because chaining dots together takes more attention than chaining 2 rains with a nuke in between. Probably why quite a few I've seen never end up summoning their pets until you get to an important mob.
i may not have relic pet, or 63 pets, But i feel all should be looked at.. So i took 3 or so hours and parsed my pet in DN all night. With some suprising results.
(I did not attack the mobs at all, mearly Malo'd to pull)
Fire pet; Lvl 52
Fight #1: http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frpet1ae8.jpg
So you're probably wondering wtf happened in this one.. I refer you to below.
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/?action=view¤t=FRpet2.jpg
Unfortunately it happens a lot, Thus the Fire pets Damage Shield killed the mob mostly.
Fight #2: http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/?action=view¤t=FRpet3.jpg
Fairly standard fight here, Tho eye the Hits vs misses.
Water Pet; LV 54:
Fight #1: http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/?action=view¤t=WTpet1.jpg
Again the Hit/miss ratio, Along with the Atrocious DPS rating compared to the 52 fire pet, Altho the Water pet Proc seems to keep up pretty well
Fight #2: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/WTpet2.jpg
That's all for now, It was really late and I'll parse more when i can. (also note the parser doesn't pick up the DPS on the pet from the mob, No idea why)
Also it seems theirs a posibility Companion Health or STR isn't working? I'm not sure but, If i take off all my Comp Health items and heal a pet from 70%, i get to 88% with 1 Lvl 52 heal, If i put them on , Resummon and such with my comp Health V and heal from 70% it still only heals to 88% (It should be less, Seeing as comp Health V raises health by 10 or 15% i forget).
(I did not attack the mobs at all, mearly Malo'd to pull)
Fire pet; Lvl 52
Fight #1: http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frpet1ae8.jpg
So you're probably wondering wtf happened in this one.. I refer you to below.
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/?action=view¤t=FRpet2.jpg
Unfortunately it happens a lot, Thus the Fire pets Damage Shield killed the mob mostly.
Fight #2: http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/?action=view¤t=FRpet3.jpg
Fairly standard fight here, Tho eye the Hits vs misses.
Water Pet; LV 54:
Fight #1: http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/?action=view¤t=WTpet1.jpg
Again the Hit/miss ratio, Along with the Atrocious DPS rating compared to the 52 fire pet, Altho the Water pet Proc seems to keep up pretty well
Fight #2: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/Neebos/WTpet2.jpg
That's all for now, It was really late and I'll parse more when i can. (also note the parser doesn't pick up the DPS on the pet from the mob, No idea why)
Also it seems theirs a posibility Companion Health or STR isn't working? I'm not sure but, If i take off all my Comp Health items and heal a pet from 70%, i get to 88% with 1 Lvl 52 heal, If i put them on , Resummon and such with my comp Health V and heal from 70% it still only heals to 88% (It should be less, Seeing as comp Health V raises health by 10 or 15% i forget).
JayelleNephilim
"Helpy Helper"
Neebos said:
8 pages of suggestions and requests and the only one who posts in depth logs. :hmph: Thanks Neebos!
