Mage changes *post suggestions here, not in SoD discussion*

Waldoff said:
Couple things.

What would everyone think about another pet focus called maybe "Companion Resists" which ups the base resists for your pets by a large margin. Can have the first lvls drop off the lower raid game and climb progressively so that you can keep your poor little guys up with just your own heals on the evil raid mobs.

Wont fix everything, but might fix the pet dieing on raids issue.


Cross class post: I think this is a great idea. Would help a ton in DHK for example with those wyverns/drakes. I could even imagine to see drops with "Companion Resists" 1 and 2 from Simple TMaps 40+ and dropping 3 from Mod+ maps or something along those lines. I am all for an alternate way than raiding to get some upgrades :)
 
Would this Companion Resists Focus be retroactively added to preexisting items?
What about just adding resist bonuses into the Companion Health Focus?
 
volvov2 said:
Would this Companion Resists Focus be retroactively added to preexisting items?
What about just adding resist bonuses into the Companion Health Focus?

1. of course it would be

2. thats a possibility. It would make Health focus much much much more desirable though for the amount of resists I was imagining we feature on the Companion Resist focus. I would personally rather a new focus be added in in general with maybe 6 or 7 % resists per tier
 
my computer struggles to run a single client of SoD, so i've never parsed, but I know that people in Steel have parsed Rurho vs. Kade DPS on raids, and I'd bet people could scrounge up some group ones.

Even without a parse, there are somet hings that can be logic'd out fairly easily. if a mage, as it is now, is balanced, then pet DPS is assumed in that balance. Considering how quickly a pet dies against many raid mobs, as soon as pet goes kerplunk, mage is suddenly (balanced mage DPS) MINUS (pet DPS).

I really like the pet-splosion AA idea. If it was given an hour recast i can't think of situations where it would be overpowered.

please give rurho something to do during raids so i don't continually think hes AFK sitting back and not sending his pet in.
 
Waldoff said:
Couple things.

What would everyone think about another pet focus called maybe "Companion Resists" which ups the base resists for your pets by a large margin. Can have the first lvls drop off the lower raid game and climb progressively so that you can keep your poor little guys up with just your own heals on the evil raid mobs.

Wont fix everything, but might fix the pet dieing on raids issue.

For background: I suggested this a month or so ago. I was going to put it on some clickies in the Rust but decided it would be a better idea to just make it a focus. I floated the idea, then Rab rightly pointed out that Mages/Necros/etc already have to worry about having 5000 focuses and that maybe resists should just be rolled into Companion Health. If resists on pets are upped, I'd bet this is how it ends up happening (resists added to comp. health).
 
Leveling up my mage I would simply pet tank and heal because I thought nukes were too insufficient- now, while soloing, I cannot keep my pet alive on anything above border-line light blue, and a 45dps pet, non-relic, is weak, as is a 20s recast on a heal.

Could the recast time on the Host of the Elements AA be lowered? Currently it is 22 minutes for magicians.

Spell resists are horrible for non-relic & raiding magicians- fire & magic are probably the highest resisted spell types on SoD, and those are the only spells we have.

What kind of parsing are we looking for here? Non-relic pets do 45dps on average, when buffed, give or take 10dps.

3 mages, 2 wizards killing Lady leskala. One relic between the five, and it is on a mage (relic nuke). DPS: Wiz1- 304.95 (32,325dmg), Wiz2- 222.14 (23,547dmg), Mage1- 159.58 (16,916dmg), Mage2- 103.75 (10,998dmg), Mage3- 99.16 (10,511dmg).
 
As a necro in the endgame, I don't find that my pet is dying to alot of mobs.

For instance, 3 out of 5 IP dragons dont kill your pet, 4 if you proactivly use the recall minion hotkey, Taeshlin doesn't kill your pet until he does his big nuke, mirror golems dont kill your pet, among many others.

That's not to say that pets are useless on alot of raid fights, but because of high damage AE's and the lack of pet healing available it is often the case (especially in cod/thaz) that pets will either die or not be used on alot of raid fights.

A few things can fix this problem, one of them is pet resists, but that would only work for AE's and unless the resists gain was very large, wouldn't have an extremely significant impact (IE: pets would still die due to the extreme negative resist modifiers of the aoes and debuffs the mobs cast).

Other mobs that pets are useless on are mobs that rampage (if you range fight it, which is now par for the course) and mobs that whirlwind.

What I suggest is a twofold solution to both AoE's killing pets way too fast and rampage/whirlwind mobs making pets absolutely useless. Give pets a 65% damage reduction on rampage/whirlwind damage and a 50% damage reduction on AoE damage spells. This, combined with the current pet healing, would allow pet users to use their pets on mobs that would normally kill them, while still requiring them to actually use their pet heals (something that is rarely done anymore since its usually impossible to heal your pet through aoe's or rampage on a raid so it ends up either being a pet attacks and doesn't get hit or a pet doesn't go in at all situation).

To put it to some numbers:

My relic necro pet has on average 4300-4500 hitpoints based off of what percentage my heals do when they land. Let's say a mob normally rampages every 6 seconds and hits for, on average 1000. Normally, I can heal my pet for 458 every 6 seconds, using Spirit of Kaezul. In this case, my pet would take 5000 damage (enough to kill it) in 30 seconds, while my heal would heal it 2290, leaving it with 1700. Then, the next 2 rampage rounds, my pet would take another 2000 damage, and get healed 916 leaving it at 1044 life. In the next 2 rampage rounds, my pet would take another 2000 damage, and heal 916 and would die. So from the start of the fight, my pet was alive and attacking the mob for 54 seconds. At the average dps he parses (70) he would do 3780 damage. Compared to one cast of my Relic: Marlows Cremation, which does an average of 3900 ish damage in 36 seconds, the pet seems rather lackluster.

If the rampage melee damage reduction was implemented, I could use my relic heal (which is very mana intensive) to keep my pet alive during the entire fight (giving him some purpose instead of 70 dps for 54 seconds).

The same applies to AoE damage, but in some cases the pet will still die with only a 50% reduction, but the length of time that it does damage to the mob will be increased to the point where it plays a significant factor to the overall damage that a pet class can do on a fight.
 
antihelei said:
As a necro in the endgame, I don't find that my pet is dying to alot of mobs.

For instance, 3 out of 5 IP dragons dont kill your pet, 4 if you proactivly use the recall minion hotkey, Taeshlin doesn't kill your pet until he does his big nuke, mirror golems dont kill your pet, among many others.

That's not to say that pets are useless on alot of raid fights, but because of high damage AE's and the lack of pet healing available it is often the case (especially in cod/thaz) that pets will either die or not be used on alot of raid fights.

A few things can fix this problem, one of them is pet resists, but that would only work for AE's and unless the resists gain was very large, wouldn't have an extremely significant impact (IE: pets would still die due to the extreme negative resist modifiers of the aoes and debuffs the mobs cast).

Other mobs that pets are useless on are mobs that rampage (if you range fight it, which is now par for the course) and mobs that whirlwind.

What I suggest is a twofold solution to both AoE's killing pets way too fast and rampage/whirlwind mobs making pets absolutely useless. Give pets a 65% damage reduction on rampage/whirlwind damage and a 50% damage reduction on AoE damage spells. This, combined with the current pet healing, would allow pet users to use their pets on mobs that would normally kill them, while still requiring them to actually use their pet heals (something that is rarely done anymore since its usually impossible to heal your pet through aoe's or rampage on a raid so it ends up either being a pet attacks and doesn't get hit or a pet doesn't go in at all situation).

To put it to some numbers:

My relic necro pet has on average 4300-4500 hitpoints based off of what percentage my heals do when they land. Let's say a mob normally rampages every 6 seconds and hits for, on average 1000. Normally, I can heal my pet for 458 every 6 seconds, using Spirit of Kaezul. In this case, my pet would take 5000 damage (enough to kill it) in 30 seconds, while my heal would heal it 2290, leaving it with 1700. Then, the next 2 rampage rounds, my pet would take another 2000 damage, and get healed 916 leaving it at 1044 life. In the next 2 rampage rounds, my pet would take another 2000 damage, and heal 916 and would die. So from the start of the fight, my pet was alive and attacking the mob for 54 seconds. At the average dps he parses (70) he would do 3780 damage. Compared to one cast of my Relic: Marlows Cremation, which does an average of 3900 ish damage in 36 seconds, the pet seems rather lackluster.

If the rampage melee damage reduction was implemented, I could use my relic heal (which is very mana intensive) to keep my pet alive during the entire fight (giving him some purpose instead of 70 dps for 54 seconds).

The same applies to AoE damage, but in some cases the pet will still die with only a 50% reduction, but the length of time that it does damage to the mob will be increased to the point where it plays a significant factor to the overall damage that a pet class can do on a fight.

That would be pretty excellent. My pet doesn't die on alot of raidmobs here, but then again, He's doing nothing other than being petrecalled when this would be a problem. He pretty much gets taken out by wyvern rampage if I just let him go.

I'm wondering if eqcomp has the resisted dmg on it? Haven't played it for a while but if it does could probably dig it up from one of tverians old parses in pot. Torment seems pretty much the worst offender so far I've seen in destroying mage dps. Fire simply isn't an option, and most are highly resistant to magic. Off the top of my head the biggest place I can think of where this is a problem. Granted, I can in fact hit now for a bit with Aisling, but she also has around 50ish over the statcap in charisma with the gear I put on for it. Earlier on in our raiding of that particular zone I recall an agonizer fight where I did approximately 2k. Over the entire fight. Keep in mind this was still with maxed, just no hidden strength yet. Also if I recall correctly the nuke I was using even has a resist mod (-25ish? can't recall). Yes by the way, it was mala'ed and tashed. Malosini I couldn't land, about 7 casts from me alone with 3 mages trying for it, I just gave up and started nuking. Wizzies? Just swap over to a different nuketype gg. Keeping in mind the pet is fairly useless for a number of named in there.

I'll see tomorrow if I have time at work if I can actually dig through some old parses. It should be pretty busy tomorrow though so no promises.

Also yeah petsplosion would be pretty hardcore. With similar restrictions as manaburn etc I don't think it would be overpowerful.
 
antihelei said:
Other mobs that pets are useless on are mobs that rampage (if you range fight it, which is now par for the course) and mobs that whirlwind.

What I suggest is a twofold solution to both AoE's killing pets way too fast and rampage/whirlwind mobs making pets absolutely useless. Give pets a 65% damage reduction on rampage/whirlwind damage and a 50% damage reduction on AoE damage spells. This, combined with the current pet healing, would allow pet users to use their pets on mobs that would normally kill them, while still requiring them to actually use their pet heals (something that is rarely done anymore since its usually impossible to heal your pet through aoe's or rampage on a raid so it ends up either being a pet attacks and doesn't get hit or a pet doesn't go in at all situation).

...

If the rampage melee damage reduction was implemented, I could use my relic heal (which is very mana intensive) to keep my pet alive during the entire fight (giving him some purpose instead of 70 dps for 54 seconds)

I think whirlwind and rampaging mobs should be looked at in general, not just for pets. How many guilds seriously don't just stick to range on fights like these?
 
On a side note though for the moment I generally forget about barrier ward since it's pretty new, it does seem to help quite a bit, however only on spells obv. Though I wonder, does it work on ae dots as well?
 
Dots/AE are not the main reason a pet dies, atleast for me in NDHK/POT and others, my main reason he dies, is rampage/whirlwind.

Most of times, AE/Dots, can be healed easy with my heal...
 
Ryei said:
Dots/AE are not the main reason a pet dies, atleast for me in NDHK/POT and others, my main reason he dies, is rampage/whirlwind.

Most of times, AE/Dots, can be healed easy with my heal...


Not in sepulcher/cod/prison/thaz
 
antihelei said:
Not in sepulcher/cod/prison/thaz

Though how many mages are there right now, mained ones? Bots? Granted barrier ward is pretty handy, when you are fighting something that ae's obv, rampage mobs however mess it your pet badly still. Providing I'm actually paying attention my pet hasn't been killed by an ae yet. Hell I even send him between whirlwinds. Maybe it's not as bad with relic pet, but with the old relic drop changes and the various petnerfs I doubt many mages are going to be seeing their relic pet any time soon.

And yeah pretty much gonna agree with diolas 99% of the time we stick ranged on rampage mobs.
 
vistachiri said:
Though how many mages are there right now, mained ones? Bots? Granted barrier ward is pretty handy, when you are fighting something that ae's obv, rampage mobs however mess it your pet badly still. Providing I'm actually paying attention my pet hasn't been killed by an ae yet. Hell I even send him between whirlwinds. Maybe it's not as bad with relic pet, but with the old relic drop changes and the various petnerfs I doubt many mages are going to be seeing their relic pet any time soon.

And yeah pretty much gonna agree with diolas 99% of the time we stick ranged on rampage mobs.


i dont think its a question of how many mages are there right now, because there has been, there is, and there always will be pet classes on raids and if nothing gets done pets are gonna keep getting more and more useless as fights get harder and harder, especially in the newer zones that are packed full of aoe's and rampage/whirlwinding mobs
 
antihelei said:
i dont think its a question of how many mages are there right now, because there has been, there is, and there always will be pet classes on raids and if nothing gets done pets are gonna keep getting more and more useless as fights get harder and harder, especially in the newer zones that are packed full of aoe's and rampage/whirlwinding mobs

Oh yeah I know, my point was more a hey why are we focusing pretty much on the very high up content instead of y'know all the rest that 90% of the class it pertains to still has not reached. I like the rampage/whirlwind reduction idea, that and obviously the reduction in the heal recast timer. Granted with pet recall now my pet pretty much only dies when either a) I do, or b) I wasnt paying attention. But it's megafrustrating to have like 80 mana left and have your pet die because you couldn't do a damm thing to save him. Recast of 30 is way too long. Said that back when it was put in, the situation has even gone further downhill as the pet was getting 50% mitigation then apparently.

Should it be instantly refreshed? No probably not. Though I'd like to point out the change was more of a forcing people playing mages not to be shitty mages. If they want to suck by just healing their pet and sitting, by all means. The justification given then was pretty much "so nuke more". Hell on many fights solo I find it far more efficient to either forget about the pet entirely and use it as a last ditch rescue, whether it's by having earthpet up and ready to root, or reclaiming it when I run lom. Why? On nonsummoning mobs that don't run at sow speed, it's actually more efficient from what I've seen. Why waste your mana on heals when you can just rootkite it after all.

Oh and just for fun. Rght now I believe my heal is around 1.5k at night. Keep in mind I have healing inc V so dayheals would be about that for most. 63 pet hp's seem to hover around the 3.5-4.4k range unbuffed. So it takes a little over a minute and a half to fully heal an unbuffed 4.5k pet. So pretty much a mage can heal around 42hp's/second (a little less actually as I neglected to add the second 5 seconds for the second heal, and only added the first). So pretty much we can keep up with 40ish dps (not of course accounting for combat misses)
 
*blush* posted reply on wrong tab open.

Rab - didn't mean to be backseat anything I was annoyed with someone hijacking a thread that obviously wasn't read clearly for it's own sake. I get pissy when people drag fights all over the place, I wasn't interested in that particular one, so i answered it's original question, and expressed my feelings. and posted the right place for it to be taken. Unfortunately, I did so in the thread I was referring to instead of the thread it was meant for. (not reposting the other because in the meantime it was answered anyhow.)
 
not gearing ramp tanks and than complaining about rampage is laziness. WW is a dif story though...pets do get owned fast and you cant /pet back off before the next ww hits usually
 
also sending your pet into a rampaging mob before the ramp tanks are on the hate list is further ignorance. On the not meleeing ramp mobs, do you realize that the dps lost is enormous? you lose DS dps on 2 tanks and all of your melee dps all of which lead to a longer, more difficult fight.
 
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