Live Test Thread 2
- Thread starter Wiz
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bloodmonkey
Dalayan Beginner
I think people are more bothered by not being able to med in combat then the fact that these changes will lower downtime...
it seems that most of the issues are stemming from side effects of this turbo medding....
perhaps, if it were possible, you could adjust it so that in combat you could still med normally...
maybe make it so you can only turbo med while you are completely without agro, including proximity agro....
then there would be no reason for someone to leave a group to try and turbo med, b/c they'd have to move so far away that it wouldn't be as feasible.....
this would allow you to change group invites back to allow invites in combat....
it seems that most of the issues are stemming from side effects of this turbo medding....
perhaps, if it were possible, you could adjust it so that in combat you could still med normally...
maybe make it so you can only turbo med while you are completely without agro, including proximity agro....
then there would be no reason for someone to leave a group to try and turbo med, b/c they'd have to move so far away that it wouldn't be as feasible.....
this would allow you to change group invites back to allow invites in combat....
rab said:
Yeah, more fun? But who was even complaining about the game being less fun due to downtime because of the med system?
People who want to do more than med + heal will choose classes whom don't do just that .. .
The solo game seems to get rearranged in that these changes just call for burning all mana on a single fight then medding til full very quickly and repeating. With the original system you would plan your battles accoring to your next battle in terms of mana and what you spend; now it doesn't even matter you might as well fuck all of your mana into one mob and kill it quickly. Which empowers the mage and weakens the necro. It used to matter to let your pet tank while you sit to regain mana, but now it's all about using spells to inflict dmg quickly. Which further weakens the necro who would med during their dots, and strengthen the mage who can chain nuke the mob.
The classes were designed around the original system of med, it's just going to be a lot of work and bullshit to redefine the classes and their strats just for some change that no one really wanted before it was brought up.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Zzang said:
Because such valuable class definitions as the cleric's "sit on your ass almost every single second of your gaming time" were certainly worth keeping indefinitely and did NOT lead to almost every single cleric in the game being a bot just to escape the crushing boredom.
Because such valuable class definitions as the cleric's "sit on your ass almost every single second of your gaming time" were certainly worth keeping indefinitely and did NOT lead to almost every single cleric in the game being a bot just to escape the crushing boredom.[/quote]
I guess I assumed people knew what they were getting into when they created a cleric. That's the kind of stuff I enjoy and the reason I made a cleric. I liked the idea of being necessary to the group's survival. Also, will the dps of a cleric even greatly factor into the high-end group or even mid-game group at all? Will it even be worth getting of your ass to go push Q on a mob at all? And will that at all make clerics be botted less?
I guess I assumed people knew what they were getting into when they created a cleric. That's the kind of stuff I enjoy and the reason I made a cleric. I liked the idea of being necessary to the group's survival. Also, will the dps of a cleric even greatly factor into the high-end group or even mid-game group at all? Will it even be worth getting of your ass to go push Q on a mob at all? And will that at all make clerics be botted less?
ench hurt
i'm undecided about the change, but my ench has been hurt in the small group setting certainly. while i do not complain about clarity being trialized (no class should have a monopoly on such an "essential" spell line), the use of CC is certainly not as handy as it once was. in a full group fighting easy mobs, a large pull wouldn't be so bad under this system, but in a smaller group (3 or 4 people, like i usually hunt), you will run out of mana regardless on a bad pull and the only option is to run away.
i know this has been stated, but i wanted to offer my perspective as a mid level ench in small group settings. with most of the dps coming from a wizard, resists can make mana management difficult, while an unlucky pull, while being able to disrupt the mobs dps with mez, would still result in a wipe/evac because the small group would simply not have the mana to finish the fight through heals/nukes, thus significantly reducing the effectiveness of good CC.
i'm excited about the changes and i'm sure the problems can be worked out. SoD is fun because it improves upon orig eq. developers here are actually thoughtful about certain game mechanics (like i never understood the point of having to loot corpses .. from an RP viewpoint even, it's dumb to rob your own body for your stuff after you die.) and they deserve a lot of respect and gratitude for that.
i'm undecided about the change, but my ench has been hurt in the small group setting certainly. while i do not complain about clarity being trialized (no class should have a monopoly on such an "essential" spell line), the use of CC is certainly not as handy as it once was. in a full group fighting easy mobs, a large pull wouldn't be so bad under this system, but in a smaller group (3 or 4 people, like i usually hunt), you will run out of mana regardless on a bad pull and the only option is to run away.
i know this has been stated, but i wanted to offer my perspective as a mid level ench in small group settings. with most of the dps coming from a wizard, resists can make mana management difficult, while an unlucky pull, while being able to disrupt the mobs dps with mez, would still result in a wipe/evac because the small group would simply not have the mana to finish the fight through heals/nukes, thus significantly reducing the effectiveness of good CC.
i'm excited about the changes and i'm sure the problems can be worked out. SoD is fun because it improves upon orig eq. developers here are actually thoughtful about certain game mechanics (like i never understood the point of having to loot corpses .. from an RP viewpoint even, it's dumb to rob your own body for your stuff after you die.) and they deserve a lot of respect and gratitude for that.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Wiz said:
To give him the benifit of the doubt, it's probably not moving the goalpost because it was a side question and not meant to replace his centre point.
After using the current system for a few days now, I do have one area of concern with the lack of medding during combat.
This has to do with the fact that if a pull goes bad or there are unexpected adds during the fight, the opions become very limited now. Especially if your mana users are LOM after an extended fight and a mob(s) is aggroed. For the most part (not totally) helpless. You pretty much die, with no chance of getting out of it.
Before, your tank could hold it long for someone to squeeze off one last root, giving the group enough time to recoup just enough to finish it off. Or perhaps everyone is OOM but there are still a couple of mobs left. With in combat medding, there was a chance (even if it was small) that you could pull it off and come out alive. Currently, there is no hope. So what if you manage to park them, now you simply wait to die.
With and without combating med when it came down to a rough fight, in both cases you pretty much have X number of resources to work with. With combat med, when those resources run out you were given a tough situation and you have to figure out "we're screwed, now how the hell do we get out of this?". Without combat med, when those resources run out you pretty much say "we're screwed, i hope the cleric can camp in time". And for me this causes one of the most fun things about this game to be lost.
One suggestion i can think of is maybe trying to balance out and in/out combat medding a little in the opposite to what it is now. Perhaps speed up in combat med, maybe not exactly where it was, but a little closer to it. And slow out of combat med back some. Maybe by doing this it will provide the decrease in downtime and sitting that is required for mana users, but yet still give a group a fighting chance, should the situation go bad.
Just for reference I am looking at this from a lvl 60 cleric and most combat has been XP grouping. So far with the new system I have not done any raid situations so I don't pressume to know how that part of the game is affected.
This has to do with the fact that if a pull goes bad or there are unexpected adds during the fight, the opions become very limited now. Especially if your mana users are LOM after an extended fight and a mob(s) is aggroed. For the most part (not totally) helpless. You pretty much die, with no chance of getting out of it.
Before, your tank could hold it long for someone to squeeze off one last root, giving the group enough time to recoup just enough to finish it off. Or perhaps everyone is OOM but there are still a couple of mobs left. With in combat medding, there was a chance (even if it was small) that you could pull it off and come out alive. Currently, there is no hope. So what if you manage to park them, now you simply wait to die.
With and without combating med when it came down to a rough fight, in both cases you pretty much have X number of resources to work with. With combat med, when those resources run out you were given a tough situation and you have to figure out "we're screwed, now how the hell do we get out of this?". Without combat med, when those resources run out you pretty much say "we're screwed, i hope the cleric can camp in time". And for me this causes one of the most fun things about this game to be lost.
One suggestion i can think of is maybe trying to balance out and in/out combat medding a little in the opposite to what it is now. Perhaps speed up in combat med, maybe not exactly where it was, but a little closer to it. And slow out of combat med back some. Maybe by doing this it will provide the decrease in downtime and sitting that is required for mana users, but yet still give a group a fighting chance, should the situation go bad.
Just for reference I am looking at this from a lvl 60 cleric and most combat has been XP grouping. So far with the new system I have not done any raid situations so I don't pressume to know how that part of the game is affected.
A very similar situation actually happend to me tonight. We had a bit of a tough fight and soon the cleric went OOM. I was thinking... oh wonderful lol there is no chance of anyone in this group getting a heal now except from the Paladin! I think part of what the new system might do is simply make groups take less risk. In the past, you could certainly try a tough fight if you had some decent CC, even if it was just root. But now, the risk of a total wipe is much greater with a big fight because the mana you start with is all you can work with. And in long, drawn out fights, well that's where your mana regen was the most important and useful. Now it's flat out gone.I can think of quite a few fights in various exp groups where the risk might not even be worth trying anymore. More importantly, omg its 6am I need to get to sleep! 
Well my husband and I have played casters all this week and the turbo med after the fight is MUCH better.
We have over the last 2 months played a few different EQemu servers ranging from regening insanely fast at all times to slower than live. and in our honest opinions this seems a good medium.
Im sure it can work with a little tweaking of the other class concerns. Ive played a healer class to end game in eqlive, EQ2, WoW..etc. Lets face it, healers are needed and often in short supply due to the bordom that the "sit on our arses or spam heal" only role we often end up in. The arguement that healers sould accept this as the job of the class is bull. Im glad that Dalaya is different from live.
Ive played a healer in games with a similar med/manna regen system and it works fine and is fun! All is needed is either the spells that have been nerfed because of the change taken out, or new types put in their place. Actually this can be a great oppourtunity to create new fun spells addressing thease concerns, which is one of the main reason i play SoD ...the fact that its different from live!
Adara
We have over the last 2 months played a few different EQemu servers ranging from regening insanely fast at all times to slower than live. and in our honest opinions this seems a good medium.
Im sure it can work with a little tweaking of the other class concerns. Ive played a healer class to end game in eqlive, EQ2, WoW..etc. Lets face it, healers are needed and often in short supply due to the bordom that the "sit on our arses or spam heal" only role we often end up in. The arguement that healers sould accept this as the job of the class is bull. Im glad that Dalaya is different from live.
Ive played a healer in games with a similar med/manna regen system and it works fine and is fun! All is needed is either the spells that have been nerfed because of the change taken out, or new types put in their place. Actually this can be a great oppourtunity to create new fun spells addressing thease concerns, which is one of the main reason i play SoD ...the fact that its different from live!
Adara
Adara said:
Personally I believe that there are more then just sitting on arses and spam healing for healer classes. For Shaman for example you can heal, dot, slow, and buff and druid can also do some other things. I still believe that the whole downtime thing is due to the class you choose to create. If you want to sit on "your arse" all day but be welcome in groups for good exp be a cleric. If you want to do some debuffing or help buff up groups, be a shaman. If you want mana regen be a necro, chanter, shaman. That's the reason there are class choices with their own abilities.
Adara said:
Should necros take this change from mana regen extroadinaire to "why lich at all now". Should necros take the change of not being able to med while pet is killing? I know these may be the tweaks you speak of but the thing is the reason you have disadvantages of mana regen is because you have advantages elsewhere. Else necros would have free rez, being able to port, heal others without hp loss, or buff others. Oh wells I've been complaining awhile, I know but... I just dont like the changes too much
Crayak said:
necros are hit the hardest by this change imo. Our spells just aren't designed for this type of med system. Casting a dot 3 times in a row per mob won't make it tick 3 times faster or do 3 times the damage. We dont gain the advantages nukers get. We pay extra mana to do damage over time because of the way the class has been balanced. after the changes went in, i tried using arch lich only to find its more detremental now than useful (brought all this up in the first thread) im sure this patch is the best thing ever if your a wizard or cleric that likes to melee, but it's really lame for us.
Oh i agree that there are other things healers can do, but IN A FIGHT how it was generally each caster has specific "jobs" or only certain spells to be cast in a raid/group and you are expected to do only them. Trust me ive been there.
As you said some classes have certain things they excel at, and i agree classes SHOULD have special things only they can do, my point is i dont feel sitting and watching the pet/party fight is one of them. How is this fun? Seriously? I think the change promotes more of an active participation in the fight and a chance for more complex strategies than sit and wait for the mob to die. I agree the necromancer will need the most balancing but perhaps the developers will offer some hopeful hints to which direction they will be going with this.
The tweaks i was thinking/hopeing for were a bit more "outside of the box" than what was assumed. For example perhaps new spells or how about adding wands to the game? I dont profess to know much about the capabilities of the emulator but from some of the items ive see it appears possible to make custom clickies. Heck how about a tradeskill of Wand Maker! Special wands with charges can be made or be mob drops for certain classes to serve as easy balancing. Like how about a necro wand that nukes the mob and gives the necro mana equal to the damage.
Of course "tweaks" like that is entirely up to the developers, but i seriously doubt after all the creativity that has been put into SoD that the balancing would be plain old nerfs.
Adara
As you said some classes have certain things they excel at, and i agree classes SHOULD have special things only they can do, my point is i dont feel sitting and watching the pet/party fight is one of them. How is this fun? Seriously? I think the change promotes more of an active participation in the fight and a chance for more complex strategies than sit and wait for the mob to die. I agree the necromancer will need the most balancing but perhaps the developers will offer some hopeful hints to which direction they will be going with this.
The tweaks i was thinking/hopeing for were a bit more "outside of the box" than what was assumed. For example perhaps new spells or how about adding wands to the game? I dont profess to know much about the capabilities of the emulator but from some of the items ive see it appears possible to make custom clickies. Heck how about a tradeskill of Wand Maker! Special wands with charges can be made or be mob drops for certain classes to serve as easy balancing. Like how about a necro wand that nukes the mob and gives the necro mana equal to the damage.
Of course "tweaks" like that is entirely up to the developers, but i seriously doubt after all the creativity that has been put into SoD that the balancing would be plain old nerfs.
Adara
vivisectvi
Dalayan Beginner
As a necro I really dont like this change either. Reasons were stated above and should be obvious to anyone who has played a necro before. As far as overpulling goes and running out of mana. I agree its terrible now and you have no hope once your group is oom. I'd rather take risks than play a game that was made to be easy, as in pull one or two at a time.
I dont like it much either as a chanter, pulling 1 - 2 at a time is the only real way to xp and actualy use all your abilities.. if you get 4+ mobs in camp all you get to do is cast mez since everything else takes huge amounts of mana sence you have to blur which is 350~ a pop and no way to regen while your group is killing them... this change was a real bore for chantering and removed "fun". If anything it promotes more chanter bots. I mean lets face it.. if your group is forced to only pull 1-2 at a time to get good xp.. whats the point of a chanter other than a few certain raid encounters and tmaps where again all your doing is casting mez?
well, i got on and tried the new system out. for groups, it doesn't really affect the druid too badly. on the other hand, the solo game is exactly as i predicted. i just cannot handle dk blues without being able to kite them. and i can't kite them without being able to sit and med while the mobs are rooted and dotted. and any dot that isn't also a debuff is now useless.
i suggest making the following changes to druid dots: all the ones in the fire line of dots should be an ac and/or str debuff. the bees line of dots should all decrease aggro, due to "distraction". and the crud line should either decrease agi, or cause blindness.
as for the problem with not being able to kite anymore... how about you give us back in-combat med, but make it the normal speed. you can only turbo-med out of combat and out of aggro range.
as things are right now, low-lvl to mid-lvl druids cannot solo anymore.
oh, and a solution to all you people that complain about not being able to do anything but sit and med or heal, with the old system... look at it this way, there's guild chat, there's ooc, there's shout, there's group chat, there's raid chat, and there's say, and, last but not least tell. why the heck complain when you're the only class that can effectively use all these channels for chatter without causing large detriment to your ability in the battle?
i remember back in eq live... i was hunting hill giants, which were yellow to me yet, kiting them in the classic style, chattering to my guildies, blasting someone in tells for ksing one of my giants, and joining in on the ooc chatter. sure, i spent the majority of my time against those giants sitting and keeping my mana from going empty, but i was loving every second of it!
i was constantly edge-of-my-seat, wondering if i was going to have enough mana to squeeze out that last root before the giant clobbers me in three hits.
i suggest making the following changes to druid dots: all the ones in the fire line of dots should be an ac and/or str debuff. the bees line of dots should all decrease aggro, due to "distraction". and the crud line should either decrease agi, or cause blindness.
as for the problem with not being able to kite anymore... how about you give us back in-combat med, but make it the normal speed. you can only turbo-med out of combat and out of aggro range.
as things are right now, low-lvl to mid-lvl druids cannot solo anymore.
oh, and a solution to all you people that complain about not being able to do anything but sit and med or heal, with the old system... look at it this way, there's guild chat, there's ooc, there's shout, there's group chat, there's raid chat, and there's say, and, last but not least tell. why the heck complain when you're the only class that can effectively use all these channels for chatter without causing large detriment to your ability in the battle?
i remember back in eq live... i was hunting hill giants, which were yellow to me yet, kiting them in the classic style, chattering to my guildies, blasting someone in tells for ksing one of my giants, and joining in on the ooc chatter. sure, i spent the majority of my time against those giants sitting and keeping my mana from going empty, but i was loving every second of it!
i was constantly edge-of-my-seat, wondering if i was going to have enough mana to squeeze out that last root before the giant clobbers me in three hits.
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