Live Test Thread 2

[rab]

You were actively participating in battle. Being the main healer is generally one of the most boring experiences I can think of. I dealt with it for a long time, and I normally like it, but I can understand a lot of people being turned off by it. A druid kiting is a terrible example of sitting on your ass and not contributing. A cleric standing, casting heal, and sitting back down for another 17 seconds before he starts another heal is what we're talking about.

 

[Xardon]

After toying with this change for the past few days, I've been able to adjust my play style accordingly (Mage or Cleric) depending on which char I play. It is certainly different but a nice change to actively participate with my cleric, summoned hammer, plus mini pet. I've even actually found out that if needed I could off tank an add, which I didn't think would be possible given his average gear. I still think the change needs to have other classes addressed for balancing, but I'm sure that will come in time.

 

[SlicerSV]

ok, i've been main healer plenty of times as well, druids get stuck with that role often enough since clerics just aren't a very popular class. i still use the chat channels to keep my mind occupied, while keeping an eye on the health bars of my party. to add to things, i've landed in parties where i was the only healer AND the only buffer. you join into the party in the middle of the fight, everyone clammers for a buff, you toss out the protection buff (hp/ac), ds a couple people, sow everyone, and you have to med real quick to pop someone a heal before they die. no-one bothers to thank you for that effort, they just tell you to sit down and med, leave them know when you're good on mana.

trust me, every class has it's trials, but the point of an mmo is chatter, clerics and other casters should count themselves lucky for having the time on their hands TO chat.

 

[Duma]

How about all the Necros and Enchanters that are complaining start giving ideas how to tweak THEIR CLASS to go with the new changes instead of saying "necros suck, chanters are worthless, now, give me back in combat med".

The changes were made to GET RID OF in combat meditation which it still seems some of you either failed to read Wiz' original post or did and simply couldn't comprehend the english.

As for ideas, how about changing all the mana regen effects of all spells and songs EXCLUDING the necro hp->mana line to making spells cheaper to cast instead of regenerating mana over time?

Example.
Jaylas Boon - Makes spells 10% cheaper
Bulwark - Makes spells 4% cheaper
Llceas - Makes spells 8% cheaper
Spiritual Bliss - Makes spells 5% cheaper

Numbers not exact, you would have to crunch the math and find the right % each spell is equal to over an average encounter.

All forms of regen through items like Flowing Thought and AA mental clarity would stay the same.

That would remove the now trivial +mana effect those spells give out of combat while keeping 100% effectivness IN combat.

As for Necros they still have the 2nd highest in combat mana regen of all classes. Meditating in combat was an unfair addition to all classes so you'll just have to take the hit. But with the above changes to the breeze line it should greatly improve the effect on you.

 

[Grachnist]

I play a necromancer, and some of the most fun i have had was in a first ruin group. We did not have a slower, nor a mezzer and we only had a druid for heals. It was so fun because it was non-stop for me, I would be mezzing this, slowing that, dotting this, toss a heal on the tank (100ish hp/tic is a respectable heal), tapping to keep my life up, dotting some mobs, undead nuking others... necromancers, in the right situations, could do everything other classes can do just obviously not nearly as well. The only thing that made this possible was Lich. Now that Lich is just a self dot in combat I can no londer keep my mana up enough to do it. It makes me sad.

As far as soloing goes because Fear doesnt work in most zone....:roll:..... The best way to kite is Agro kiting..... In other words I can not be in there meleeing the mob unless I want to die. Before the changes I would Dooming Darkness, 2 or 3 dots, send pet in with Taunt Off. Then I would just run away, sit and as the mob slowly made its way to me. I would be able to regen a considerable ammount of mana with Lich, stand up when it gets close and run away again. Against alot of mobs I would almost be able to regen enough mana to non-stop pull...no downtime. If anything this change has made more downtime for necromancers.

Change clerics if you dont want them to just be sitting the whole fight, not change the whole darn system of mana regen and as a result the entire combat portion of the game.

 

[Waldoff]

is it possible to make a split in the system between priest classes and int classes? Or is there client restrictions involved?

 

[Grachnist]

Meditating in combat was an unfair addition to all classes.

I could not disagree more. The whole sytem of meditate was to be able to sit and get mana at any time, in or out of combat.

All the problems that have already come up from the simple change to no in combat medding just proves this.

How about all the Necros and Enchanters that are complaining start giving ideas how to tweak THEIR CLASS to go with the new changes instead of saying "necros suck, chanters are worthless, now, give me back in combat med".

Because it was just fine before the changes.. Shouldnt haveto help fix my own class when it was fine in the first place. Here is my idea, roll it back to the way it was.

 

[Duma]

Meditating in combat was an unfair addition to all classes.

I could not disagree more. The whole sytem of meditate was to be able to sit and get mana at any time, in or out of combat.

All the problems that have already come up from the simple change to no in combat medding just proves this.

How can you meditate with people fighting around you?

And what are "all these problems"? I can count on one hand the number of people that are complaining about the changes.

Yeah Necro's need a tweak, and so do Enchanters breeze line.

Other than that, what "problems" are you speaking of that I couldn't filed under the "It's fine, Learn to Play" tab?

 

[Daelius]

From a role playing standpoint, meditation in combat seems really far fetched. No fighter of any ability sits down and rests while fighting an enemy. They can rest before and after battle, but it seems nearly impossible to rest while in combat. The only recovery that seems logical is magical recovery, through enchantment or potion.

 

[Wiz]

Look people. We certainly understand your complaints, but something is wrong with you if you think that any single class should spend nearly all of their time sitting down.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

Now that Lich is just a self dot in combat

Lich hasn't changed.... Meditate has changed. Lich will still give you as much mana as it did before. The change just makes it so you don't gain mana at a faster rate sitting than standing.

 

[Grachnist]

Other than that, what "problems" are you speaking of that I couldn't filed under the "It's fine, Learn to Play" tab?

I play a necromancer, and some of the most fun i have had was in a first ruin group. We did not have a slower, nor a mezzer and we only had a druid for heals. It was so fun because it was non-stop for me, I would be mezzing this, slowing that, dotting this, toss a heal on the tank (100ish hp/tic is a respectable heal), tapping to keep my life up, dotting some mobs, undead nuking others... necromancers, in the right situations, could do everything other classes can do just obviously not nearly as well. The only thing that made this possible was Lich. Now that Lich is just a self dot in combat I can no londer keep my mana up enough to do it. It makes me sad.

As far as soloing goes because Fear doesnt work in most zone....:roll:..... The best way to kite is Agro kiting..... In other words I can not be in there meleeing the mob unless I want to die. Before the changes I would Dooming Darkness, 2 or 3 dots, send pet in with Taunt Off. Then I would just run away, sit and as the mob slowly made its way to me. I would be able to regen a considerable ammount of mana with Lich, stand up when it gets close and run away again. Against alot of mobs I would almost be able to regen enough mana to non-stop pull...no downtime. If anything this change has made more downtime for necromancers.

Change clerics if you dont want them to just be sitting the whole fight, not change the whole darn system of mana regen and as a result the entire combat portion of the game.

The solo game seems to get rearranged in that these changes just call for burning all mana on a single fight then medding til full very quickly and repeating. With the original system you would plan your battles accoring to your next battle in terms of mana and what you spend; now it doesn't even matter you might as well fuck all of your mana into one mob and kill it quickly. Which empowers the mage and weakens the necro. It used to matter to let your pet tank while you sit to regain mana, but now it's all about using spells to inflict dmg quickly. Which further weakens the necro who would med during their dots, and strengthen the mage who can chain nuke the mob.

The classes were designed around the original system of med, it's just going to be a lot of work and bullshit to redefine the classes and their strats just for some change that no one really wanted before it was brought up.

After using the current system for a few days now, I do have one area of concern with the lack of medding during combat.

This has to do with the fact that if a pull goes bad or there are unexpected adds during the fight, the opions become very limited now. Especially if your mana users are LOM after an extended fight and a mob(s) is aggroed. For the most part (not totally) helpless. You pretty much die, with no chance of getting out of it.

Before, your tank could hold it long for someone to squeeze off one last root, giving the group enough time to recoup just enough to finish it off. Or perhaps everyone is OOM but there are still a couple of mobs left. With in combat medding, there was a chance (even if it was small) that you could pull it off and come out alive. Currently, there is no hope. So what if you manage to park them, now you simply wait to die.

With and without combating med when it came down to a rough fight, in both cases you pretty much have X number of resources to work with. With combat med, when those resources run out you were given a tough situation and you have to figure out "we're screwed, now how the hell do we get out of this?". Without combat med, when those resources run out you pretty much say "we're screwed, i hope the cleric can camp in time". And for me this causes one of the most fun things about this game to be lost.

One suggestion i can think of is maybe trying to balance out and in/out combat medding a little in the opposite to what it is now. Perhaps speed up in combat med, maybe not exactly where it was, but a little closer to it. And slow out of combat med back some. Maybe by doing this it will provide the decrease in downtime and sitting that is required for mana users, but yet still give a group a fighting chance, should the situation go bad.

Just for reference I am looking at this from a lvl 60 cleric and most combat has been XP grouping. So far with the new system I have not done any raid situations so I don't pressume to know how that part of the game is affected.

necros are hit the hardest by this change imo. Our spells just aren't designed for this type of med system. Casting a dot 3 times in a row per mob won't make it tick 3 times faster or do 3 times the damage. We dont gain the advantages nukers get. We pay extra mana to do damage over time because of the way the class has been balanced. after the changes went in, i tried using arch lich only to find its more detremental now than useful (brought all this up in the first thread) im sure this patch is the best thing ever if your a wizard or cleric that likes to melee, but it's really lame for us.

I dont like it much either as a chanter, pulling 1 - 2 at a time is the only real way to xp and actualy use all your abilities.. if you get 4+ mobs in camp all you get to do is cast mez since everything else takes huge amounts of mana sence you have to blur which is 350~ a pop and no way to regen while your group is killing them... this change was a real bore for chantering and removed "fun". If anything it promotes more chanter bots. I mean lets face it.. if your group is forced to only pull 1-2 at a time to get good xp.. whats the point of a chanter other than a few certain raid encounters and tmaps where again all your doing is casting mez?

Are just a few examples of what I would consider problems people have pointed out.

 

[Grachnist]

Look people. We certainly understand your complaints, but something is wrong with you if you think that any single class should spend nearly all of their time sitting down.

I agree with you Wiz 100% that clerics are not the funnest class to play. I played a cleric to 56 on live pre-velious.... not exactly exciting. That is why I think the changes should be to cleric or perhaps all priest classes instead of an entire revamp of the casting portion of the combat game.

With the changes to make Clerics funner you have, as an unintended result, made other classes less fun and somewhat less useful.

 

[Wiz]

Look people. We certainly understand your complaints, but something is wrong with you if you think that any single class should spend nearly all of their time sitting down.

I agree with you Wiz 100% that clerics are not the funnest class to play. I played a cleric to 56 on live pre-velious.... not exactly exciting. That is why I think the changes should be to cleric or perhaps all priest classes instead of an entire revamp of the casting portion of the combat game.

With the changes to make Clerics funner you have, as an unintended result, made other classes less fun and somewhat less useful.

So ONLY priests should not be permitted to meditate during combat? That sounds like the worst idea ever. It'd make things completely impossible to balance.

I agree with the sentiment that it's bad that there's a point in combat where you can just say "We're screwed", but what exactly do you suggest that we do about it without retaining EverSit?

 

[Daelius]

What about giving clerics more Low Mana heals (if possible). Similar to the low mana nukes of the wizzy. That gives clerics more mana to heal, so it will take more to be oom.

 

[Duma]

Other than that, what "problems" are you speaking of that I couldn't filed under the "It's fine, Learn to Play" tab?

I play a necromancer, and some of the most fun i have had was in a first ruin group. We did not have a slower, nor a mezzer and we only had a druid for heals. It was so fun because it was non-stop for me, I would be mezzing this, slowing that, dotting this, toss a heal on the tank (100ish hp/tic is a respectable heal), tapping to keep my life up, dotting some mobs, undead nuking others... necromancers, in the right situations, could do everything other classes can do just obviously not nearly as well. The only thing that made this possible was Lich. Now that Lich is just a self dot in combat I can no londer keep my mana up enough to do it. It makes me sad.

As far as soloing goes because Fear doesnt work in most zone....:roll:..... The best way to kite is Agro kiting..... In other words I can not be in there meleeing the mob unless I want to die. Before the changes I would Dooming Darkness, 2 or 3 dots, send pet in with Taunt Off. Then I would just run away, sit and as the mob slowly made its way to me. I would be able to regen a considerable ammount of mana with Lich, stand up when it gets close and run away again. Against alot of mobs I would almost be able to regen enough mana to non-stop pull...no downtime. If anything this change has made more downtime for necromancers.

Change clerics if you dont want them to just be sitting the whole fight, not change the whole darn system of mana regen and as a result the entire combat portion of the game.

The solo game seems to get rearranged in that these changes just call for burning all mana on a single fight then medding til full very quickly and repeating. With the original system you would plan your battles accoring to your next battle in terms of mana and what you spend; now it doesn't even matter you might as well fuck all of your mana into one mob and kill it quickly. Which empowers the mage and weakens the necro. It used to matter to let your pet tank while you sit to regain mana, but now it's all about using spells to inflict dmg quickly. Which further weakens the necro who would med during their dots, and strengthen the mage who can chain nuke the mob.

The classes were designed around the original system of med, it's just going to be a lot of work and bullshit to redefine the classes and their strats just for some change that no one really wanted before it was brought up.

After using the current system for a few days now, I do have one area of concern with the lack of medding during combat.

This has to do with the fact that if a pull goes bad or there are unexpected adds during the fight, the opions become very limited now. Especially if your mana users are LOM after an extended fight and a mob(s) is aggroed. For the most part (not totally) helpless. You pretty much die, with no chance of getting out of it.

Before, your tank could hold it long for someone to squeeze off one last root, giving the group enough time to recoup just enough to finish it off. Or perhaps everyone is OOM but there are still a couple of mobs left. With in combat medding, there was a chance (even if it was small) that you could pull it off and come out alive. Currently, there is no hope. So what if you manage to park them, now you simply wait to die.

With and without combating med when it came down to a rough fight, in both cases you pretty much have X number of resources to work with. With combat med, when those resources run out you were given a tough situation and you have to figure out "we're screwed, now how the hell do we get out of this?". Without combat med, when those resources run out you pretty much say "we're screwed, i hope the cleric can camp in time". And for me this causes one of the most fun things about this game to be lost.

One suggestion i can think of is maybe trying to balance out and in/out combat medding a little in the opposite to what it is now. Perhaps speed up in combat med, maybe not exactly where it was, but a little closer to it. And slow out of combat med back some. Maybe by doing this it will provide the decrease in downtime and sitting that is required for mana users, but yet still give a group a fighting chance, should the situation go bad.

Just for reference I am looking at this from a lvl 60 cleric and most combat has been XP grouping. So far with the new system I have not done any raid situations so I don't pressume to know how that part of the game is affected.

necros are hit the hardest by this change imo. Our spells just aren't designed for this type of med system. Casting a dot 3 times in a row per mob won't make it tick 3 times faster or do 3 times the damage. We dont gain the advantages nukers get. We pay extra mana to do damage over time because of the way the class has been balanced. after the changes went in, i tried using arch lich only to find its more detremental now than useful (brought all this up in the first thread) im sure this patch is the best thing ever if your a wizard or cleric that likes to melee, but it's really lame for us.

I dont like it much either as a chanter, pulling 1 - 2 at a time is the only real way to xp and actualy use all your abilities.. if you get 4+ mobs in camp all you get to do is cast mez since everything else takes huge amounts of mana sence you have to blur which is 350~ a pop and no way to regen while your group is killing them... this change was a real bore for chantering and removed "fun". If anything it promotes more chanter bots. I mean lets face it.. if your group is forced to only pull 1-2 at a time to get good xp.. whats the point of a chanter other than a few certain raid encounters and tmaps where again all your doing is casting mez?

Are just a few examples of what I would consider problems people have pointed out.

"Necro fear" = Wiz is fixing this eventually.

"Crappy puller" = Learn to play

"I can't yank a dozen mobs at once" = Don't then.

"I don't have the mana" = Get a bigger mana pool

 

[Grachnist]

Look people. We certainly understand your complaints, but something is wrong with you if you think that any single class should spend nearly all of their time sitting down.

I agree with you Wiz 100% that clerics are not the funnest class to play. I played a cleric to 56 on live pre-velious.... not exactly exciting. That is why I think the changes should be to cleric or perhaps all priest classes instead of an entire revamp of the casting portion of the combat game.

With the changes to make Clerics funner you have, as an unintended result, made other classes less fun and somewhat less useful.

So ONLY priests should not be permitted to meditate during combat? That sounds like the worst idea ever. It'd make things completely impossible to balance.

I agree with the sentiment that it's bad that there's a point in combat where you can just say "We're screwed", but what exactly do you suggest that we do about it without retaining EverSit?

Meditate while standing.

But seriously, one idea that comes to mind (somewhat borrowed from World of Warcraft) would be something like give clerics a self buff where each of the cleric's melee hits heals the group for a portion of the dmg done, or cleric nukes that also heal the group for a portion of the dmg done. Would give them something to do in combat while still having to option of meditating if the pull went bad and extra healing was needed.

 

[Wiz]

Are you guys not reading what I'm saying? The issue here isn't clerics alone and giving them free heals is just going to turn the game pathetically easy.

 

[Grachnist]

Are you guys not reading what I'm saying? The issue here isn't clerics alone and giving them free heals is just going to turn the game pathetically easy.

I am reading what you are saying and from what I understand this change is mainly for healer classes.

You were actively participating in battle. Being the main healer is generally one of the most boring experiences I can think of. I dealt with it for a long time, and I normally like it, but I can understand a lot of people being turned off by it. A druid kiting is a terrible example of sitting on your ass and not contributing. A cleric standing, casting heal, and sitting back down for another 17 seconds before he starts another heal is what we're talking about.

especially for healing classes who can now be an active part of their group instead of just sitting down and occasionally healing.

Like I said give Cleric and all healer classes a way of not only being DPS but also being able to heal at the same time. Then they can still have the option of meditate if need be. That way they would still have something to do other then sit while still doing their class job.

A self buff where melee damage done by the caster heals the group for a certain % of the damage done, would aslo cause priest classes to use different weapons get up different melee skills ect.

A nuke that heals the group for a certain % of the damage done, could even make an AA for it.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

I agree with the sentiment that it's bad that there's a point in combat where you can just say "We're screwed", but what exactly do you suggest that we do about it without retaining EverSit?

I had suggested allowing meditate when all the mobs are mezzed.

Other options, all with positives and negatives for various class-styles depending on what else you are trying to accomplish that address some of the issues raised here:
- Allow meditate when no damage is being done to mobs. This allows for mez or root-parking, but no meditate for root-dot or pet tanking. Allows root-nuking.
- Allow meditate when no mobs are able to do mele damage. Allows for mez or root-parking, and allows root-dot and root-nuking. Does not allow for pet tanking.
- Same as above, but damage to pets doesn't count.

All of these address the reasons for making the change, while allowing some of the things that the change is overly restrictive on. None of these would affect the change for raid encounters or fighting in normal grouping (which aren't what most of the complaints are about, and were the focus of the change).