Live Test Thread 2

[Grachnist]

I would be happy with wiz's latest suggestion. 15-20seconds after casting then being able to med at the old rate seems like a comfortable inbetween.

Playing styles will still be altered a little bit, but not completly changed around, so the feel of things stays about the same.

From an RP stand-point about in-combat med: One could think of it as a "getting in the zone" "tuning out" "focusing" type of period where you can mentally escape from battle and recover.

It is a very good idea, of couse some things would need to be adjusted. Keep in mind a large part of this change is reduce downtime for everyone. Having multiple instances of 15-20sec each durring every battle would just add more time to med breaks. There would be a good 45-60+ seconds each fight where you regain no mana at all. In other words, slight mana regen increase out of combat to make up for it, would still give you desired effect in reguards to in combat meditating but not punish you for casting more spells.

I would be happy with a delayed-meditate sytem like this with regular in combat mana regeneration rate (When not in the 15-20seconds after casting) and have an increased rate out of combat.

 

[Zzang]

He's still going to have the fast out-of-combat rate in place.

 

[excuseme]

A few things:

If there is any amount of time a caster can sit, in combat, and maybe hope to get some decent mana from meditate, you will not truly be solving the problem of "sit, cast, sit". And the changes now have completely discouraged sitting. Now, people only sit out of habit, or if they are in their spell book, or if they are trying to stay out of the way.

Expanding on an idea that someone else had: What if Clerics had a line of summoned hammers (either an additional line, or change their current line) that, instead of proccing DD, procced some sort of group heal? Then, we've not only discouraged sitting by removing it as a way to get mana (which they need for heals), we've also encouraged doing something more interesting (meleeing) to indirectly accomplish the thing that they were sitting down for in the first place.
Carrying that idea even further, what if each casting class was given some spell or spells that allowed them, while meleeing, to *proc* an effect in line with their "traditional" role in a group? Enchanters would proc something that maybe AE mezzed (of COURSE with some sort of hate reduction or mem wipe component, or else it would be silly. And no, that doesnt mean they walk up to the ADD and start beating on it, waiting for a proc - They would assist the MA, and the AE proc would be do the trick. Additionally, since the mezzing of adds has to occur ASAP, maybe the Enchanters could have their version of the spell be a self-only buff that automatically fires on the first swing, or first hit.) Druids & Shamans could get some sort of self-only combat proc buff triggers a HoT. Necros could get something that procs a DoT or a small group lifetap. Wizards and Mages could get something that procced DD. This way, the people that are complaining that chain-pulling hampers their ability to do X when grouped, would have a way to accomplish X by walking over and beating on the mobs.

Last - If Clerics stay the way they are now, I would be excited about making a soloing BattleCleric!! I'll get to wear plate armor, I'll be able to heal myself, I'll have enhanced melee capabilities, I'll be able to lull, root, stun, nuke, I'll have a summoned proccing hammer, and mana regen between pulls will be almost instantaneous. And if I really screw up, and can't get my Gate off... I can just waltz right back, and rezz myself. : ) Certainly not boring!

 

[Andorraa]

Feign Death

A lot of these suggestions seem really good, and are going to be better for the game, but I really think the mob aggro changes affect people negatively. I'm a Monk, at the time of this writing level 60, and the new changes impact us most of all.

One of the main attributes to a monk is their ability to split mobs up so that their group can take them down individually, without massacring your group with a bunch of casters. As a well known (to my guild at least) splitter, I feel that the changes make Monks a LOT less useful in a group. We are outdamaged by rogues of similar level, and without our ability to split mobs, that makes a group looking for more pass on a monk.

Pulling mobs with the new changes, I think, will hurt us a lot more than help us. This is just my opinion, and while some people will be saying "stfu n00b," I think some might agree with me. While talking to some Monks higher than myself, they also expressed some displeasure in the fact that their main role was now gone.

I haven't been able to test the new changes extensively, but what I have found is that even while solo, FD isn't as useful as it used to be.

Anyone agree with me?

On a side note, I've noticed that when "entering" and "exiting" combat, the messages are reversed.

 

[Wiz]

FD split being broken is a bug.

 

[Zzang]

Re: Feign Death

If there is any amount of time a caster can sit, in combat, and maybe hope to get some decent mana from meditate, you will not truly be solving the problem of "sit, cast, sit". And the changes now have completely discouraged sitting. Now, people only sit out of habit, or if they are in their spell book, or if they are trying to stay out of the way.

The problem of "sit, cast, sit" was "solved" from the fast mana regen. The point is you don't have to sit, because the fast mana-regen out of combat will still be there.

It will simply be situational or a matter of preference and choice.

 

[gtoo]

Man, I really don't see any problem with the system as it is now. No groups I have been in with any of my characters have changed dramaticly. My role hasn't really changed at all, as I wasn't the type of cleric to sit and med through fights anyways. Being a part of the fight has always been fun, and this only helps more people to experience it. This is one of the best changes I have seen both for grouping and for the raid game.

Putting in delayed meditate is not a good idea in my opinion. If anything it will just make fights last a lot longer, with caster DPS nuking once or twice, sitting for 30 secs to get their mana back and nuking again, where they could just burn the mob down and get their mana back after the fight.

so, BIG thumbs-up for in combat med changes, keep it the way it is!

 

[Grachnist]

Man, I really don't see any problem with the system as it is now. No groups I have been in with any of my characters have changed dramaticly. My role hasn't really changed at all, as I wasn't the type of cleric to sit and med through fights anyways. Being a part of the fight has always been fun, and this only helps more people to experience it. This is one of the best changes I have seen both for grouping and for the raid game.

Putting in delayed meditate is not a good idea in my opinion. If anything it will just make fights last a lot longer, with caster DPS nuking once or twice, sitting for 30 secs to get their mana back and nuking again, where they could just burn the mob down and get their mana back after the fight.

so, BIG thumbs-up for in combat med changes, keep it the way it is!

I dont think you fully understand, with the new proposed changes there would only be one big difference between the way it might be and the way it is now. You would be able to just unload nukes and/or melee exactly like you do now without any mana regen from sitting, fine and dandy. But the key thing that would change is that if you really need to you can sit and meditate while in combat after the timer is up. As it is right now once you are OOM in combat you are screwed, or if you are solo kiting and run OOM you are screwed. And thats what needs to be fixed about the system in place now, among a few other things that the new changes would fix if they are to go in.

 

[excuseme]

Re: Feign Death

If there is any amount of time a caster can sit, in combat, and maybe hope to get some decent mana from meditate, you will not truly be solving the problem of "sit, cast, sit". And the changes now have completely discouraged sitting. Now, people only sit out of habit, or if they are in their spell book, or if they are trying to stay out of the way.

The problem of "sit, cast, sit" was "solved" from the fast mana regen. The point is you don't have to sit, because the fast mana-regen out of combat will still be there.

It will simply be situational or a matter of preference and choice.

I realize that, ZZang. I only mentioned it in my post because one of the suggestions now floating around in this thread involves an increase in mana regen while sitting for a certain length of time. And IMO, that modification would encourage sitting again.

 

[gtoo]

I dont think you fully understand, with the new proposed changes there would only be one big difference between the way it might be and the way it is now. You would be able to just unload and/or melee exactly like you do now without any mana regen from sitting, fine and dandy. But the key thing that would change is that if need to you can sit and meditate while in combat after the timer is up. As it is right now once you are OOM in combat you are screwed, or if you are solo kiting and run OOM you are screwed. And thats what needs to be fixed about the system in place now, among a few other things that the new changes would fix if they are to go in.

Those are more of a, 'don't do things that are risky if you don't want to get killed'. I don't think Wiz wants to dumb down his game so that you are never in risk of dieing. If you are going OOM in combat, have the pulls come a little slower, or fight easier mobs, or change your strategy so that you don't go OOM. If you are solo kiting, don't try and kill mobs that are too hard for you, or run around while your standing mana regen works.

 

[Grachnist]

I dont think you fully understand, with the new proposed changes there would only be one big difference between the way it might be and the way it is now. You would be able to just unload and/or melee exactly like you do now without any mana regen from sitting, fine and dandy. But the key thing that would change is that if need to you can sit and meditate while in combat after the timer is up. As it is right now once you are OOM in combat you are screwed, or if you are solo kiting and run OOM you are screwed. And thats what needs to be fixed about the system in place now, among a few other things that the new changes would fix if they are to go in.

Those are more of a, 'don't do things that are risky if you don't want to get killed'. I don't think Wiz wants to dumb down his game so that you are never in risk of dieing. If you are going OOM in combat, have the pulls come a little slower, or fight easier mobs, or change your strategy so that you don't go OOM. If you are solo kiting, don't try and kill mobs that are too hard for you, or run around while your standing mana regen works.

What about resists? What about adds? What if the tank goes LD? What if mez breaks? What if.... just something bad happens?

Use your head, the way it was before allowed for medding any time durring combat so what are you talking about dumbing down the game? The new way would allow medding in combat but not for 15-20 or even 30seconds after casting and 12 of 15 classes use spells.... It would make fights harder (If you run OOM) then the original system but not have the drawbacks of the system in place now...

Before:
Go OOM you still have a fighting chance

Now:
Go OOM you die.

Future? :
Go OOM you still have a chance, not great but played right still doable.

 

[gtoo]

What about resists? What about adds? What if the tank goes LD? What if mez breaks? What if.... just something bad happens?

Use your head, the way it was before allowed for medding any time durring combat so what are you talking about dumbing down the game? The new way would allow medding in combat but not for 15-20 or even 30seconds after casting and 12 of 15 classes use spells.... It would make fights harder then the original system but not have the drawbacks of the system in place now...

If something bad happens I'm sure you can find a more creative way around it than sitting and medding for more mana.

I honestly don't see any valid drawbacks to the current system.

 

[Grachnist]

What about resists? What about adds? What if the tank goes LD? What if mez breaks? What if.... just something bad happens?

Use your head, the way it was before allowed for medding any time durring combat so what are you talking about dumbing down the game? The new way would allow medding in combat but not for 15-20 or even 30seconds after casting and 12 of 15 classes use spells.... It would make fights harder then the original system but not have the drawbacks of the system in place now...

If something bad happens I'm sure you can find a more creative way around it than sitting and medding for more mana.

I honestly don't see any valid drawbacks to the current system.

News flash. Casters Use Mana for 99% of the things they do in combat situations. (Pet classes the exception)
What 'Creative' way around it would you suggest? Run around in circles staying OOM for 15minutes while the Tank sits to regen HP? Mem your level 1 nuke to use the last tiny ammount of mana to finish off the mob? :roll:

 

[gtoo]

What about resists? What about adds? What if the tank goes LD? What if mez breaks? What if.... just something bad happens?

Use your head, the way it was before allowed for medding any time durring combat so what are you talking about dumbing down the game? The new way would allow medding in combat but not for 15-20 or even 30seconds after casting and 12 of 15 classes use spells.... It would make fights harder then the original system but not have the drawbacks of the system in place now...

If something bad happens I'm sure you can find a more creative way around it than sitting and medding for more mana.

I honestly don't see any valid drawbacks to the current system.

News flash. Casters Use Mana for 99% of the things they do in combat situations. (Pet classes the exception)
What 'Creative' way around it would you suggest? Run around in circles staying OOM for 15minutes while the Tank sits to regen HP? Mem your level 1 nuke to use the last tiny ammount of mana to finish off the mob? :roll:

If you are blowing all your mana and going OOM in a situation where being mana-less = death you are playing wrong.

 

[phlit]

If you are blowing all your mana and going OOM in a situation where being mana-less = death you are playing wrong.

Don't be dumb. Maybe you're just pushing yourself and the group to it's limits (a good thing..., SoD did/does reward playing against harder content rather than easy stuff). Sometimes, luck, or whatever, happens, and you need to med during combat.

 

[Grachnist]

What about resists? What about adds? What if the tank goes LD? What if mez breaks? What if.... just something bad happens?

Use your head, the way it was before allowed for medding any time durring combat so what are you talking about dumbing down the game? The new way would allow medding in combat but not for 15-20 or even 30seconds after casting and 12 of 15 classes use spells.... It would make fights harder then the original system but not have the drawbacks of the system in place now...

If something bad happens I'm sure you can find a more creative way around it than sitting and medding for more mana.

I honestly don't see any valid drawbacks to the current system.

News flash. Casters Use Mana for 99% of the things they do in combat situations. (Pet classes the exception)
What 'Creative' way around it would you suggest? Run around in circles staying OOM for 15minutes while the Tank sits to regen HP? Mem your level 1 nuke to use the last tiny ammount of mana to finish off the mob? :roll:

If you are blowing all your mana and going OOM in a situation where being mana-less = death you are playing wrong.

Do I haveto repeat myself? What about resists, LDs, Adds, Spells breaking (Root, Mez, Charm). These things happen and usualy mean death if you are OOM but not always, now it is almost certain death with nothing you can do but stand there and watch or attempt to camp out. Yes you are right. If a cleric, for example, was to just burn all their mana not saying anything go OOM and die as a result then yes they need to learn to play better.

If you dont see any valid drawbacks to the current system you obviously have not read both threads on the subject. The lich line of spells right now is a very valid drawback to the current system, if it were to be changed Lich spells would be much more useful again.

 

[Crayak]

Well with the change We could consider decreasing mana cost of all spells, decreasing amount of time for DoTs to work to full affect, and making it so necros rez doesnt cost a ruby! heh I dunno With this change i would bet wizzies will start complaining.

 

[shebearcub]

I think the changes are going relatively well... It's forced me to rethink my solo and group tactics and challenged me. I like having to come up with stratagies and not just coming into battle as mindless as it was. Do I heal, back up heal, or nuke and dot.

In a group I have to save manna in case I need to heal - or evac - or root adds, regardless of how we set up the roles of that particular group. The side effect is that it requires a little more communication between the healers and the rest of the group and between each other, so we're actually talking about what we're doing instead of long periods of silence in groups while we just hack and slash.

The newest proposed changes of a slower delayed manna regen during combat would be good, when all else fails, but again if you're talking with your group and approach your fights with thought, and stratagy then you may not need it as much.

As a soloing Druid lots of the time, I'm also interested in the idea of root being added to the same class as Mez - if I'm not actively engaging a mob (usually adds) a slower manna regen at least would be helpful but only second to being able to root and meditate as if I were out of battle without having to lose my pet and zone when I get adds.

/dance

~Griz

 

[Liam]

Well with the change We could consider decreasing mana cost of all spells, decreasing amount of time for DoTs to work to full affect, and making it so necros rez doesnt cost a ruby! heh I dunno With this change i would bet wizzies will start complaining.

No, there's zero reason to decrease mana cost on spells.

No, if you want what's basically a DD instead of a 4 tick or a 6 tick DoT, play a Wizard.

Rubies aren't amazingly hard to find. 50+ camps have rare gems drop, just make sure you've staked a claim in them.

 

[gtoo]

Do I haveto repeat myself? What about resists, LDs, Adds, Spells breaking (Root, Mez, Charm). These things happen and usualy mean death if you are OOM but not always, now it is almost certain death with nothing you can do but stand there and watch or attempt to camp out. Yes you are right. If a cleric, for example, was to just burn all their mana not saying anything go OOM and die as a result then yes they need to learn to play better.

If you dont see any valid drawbacks to the current system you obviously have not read both threads on the subject. The lich line of spells right now is a very valid drawback to the current system, if it were to be changed Lich spells would be much more useful again.

Do you people honestly go OOM on EVERY pull? where you have to root/mez and med to finish mobs off? That is either an issue of your playstyle or where you are fighting.