LIVE TEST - Mana regen/game fun changes

[Xardon]

My only concern is class balancing now. Caster classes now have an even greater advantage over the melee with this change. If the changes stick, I hope some tweaking and balancing is done.

**EDIT** - How is the necro community taking these changes? I've heard some necro friends say they are going to switch to a Wizard because they are more desirable for faster nuke DPS, rather than DoT's. Again never played a necro, but is there that "sense" from the necro community that these changes make Wiz/Mage/Loosly Enc more desirable over Necro's for the Pure Int casters? Just curious.

 

[saldor]

re

For us with fewer characters and less equipment, substitution of healing means we rotate people in and out of the CH chain, giving them time to med longer periods without constantly being in the CH chain until they are oom.

I am fairly certain that this is against the rules, and shouldnt work according to how CH works on this server. If it does, it is most likely a bug.

If I am understanding the "strategy" correctly ... it IS against the server rules.

No Lytec was not using the correct sense for it. When we run oom we use 'padder' cause we know you CANT have more then THREE ch chain (the fourth get DONT hold message anyways so its not bugged). We either continue the chain with 2 while the other med another ch or pad instead of that CH.

Sald / Dlas

 

[thizz]

**EDIT** - How is the necro community taking these changes? I've heard some necro friends say they are going to switch to a Wizard because they are more desirable for faster nuke DPS, rather than DoT's. Again never played a necro, but is there that "sense" from the necro community that these changes make Wiz/Mage/Loosly Enc more desirable over Necro's for the Pure Int casters? Just curious.

it's a swift kick in the balls for necros. I have a level 61 necro here and I started up a wizard last night too

I have posted in this thread already that it makes lich obsolete and so horribly inefficent to use, since necro spells are balanced to be constantly in lich/med throughout the fight. and im not the only one (i have seen others post about it too here)


Necros need to be completely rebalanced if meditate is reworked, as this patch completely breaks and unbalances them

 

[Duma]

Necros are still needed because the more dots on the mob the greater the weakening effect on the mob lowering it's physical damage output. And Necro's DO do good dps. Necros help START dps ona mob.

And I am not sure if it is commonly known that you can generate negative aggro on this server so Wizards can concussion repeatedly until it is time for them to start nuking. But in general it is a bad idea for Wizards to be nuking mobs that aren't below 65% anyway. One (un)lucky early ultimate blast will get you one rounded pretty fast. Wizards help END dps on a mob.

 

[Thinkmeats]

I'm pretty sure crits don't make extra aggro. Also, I can see the necros' point--after all the dots are on the mob, what are they supposed to do? Chain tap? This change also seems to overall lessen the impact of FT, but that's not necessarily bad.

 

[Duma]

Crits are full aggro.
Ultimate blasts are higher aggro but not as high as the white damage because they have a deaggro component.
Primal blasts are fully aggroless.

As I read it.

 

[Zzang]

I just don't see the real REASON for the change in the first place. Nothing was broken about the old med system and there wasn't really too many complaints that come to mind.

It just seems like there will be a lot of time/energy spent on trying to tweak and fix balancing and encounter issues that the change will cause, all while the intention just seems to be trying to make the game easier by reducing downtime.

 

[hooden]

I think necros have a legitimate conern. As a Wizard, I knew the one thing I could never do is keep up like a necro when it comes to sustained dps in a fast-paced group. Now that the mana regen is no longer the issue, Necros lose a lot when it comes to regular grinding (and I speak from high end; I imagine low level necros will still benefit since their lich is not so powerful).

I also figured to hell with FT gear pretty much.

 

[Aknosis]

I love the changes for my own reasons,

Doing tmaps yesterday I was able to get to FM or near FM between the waves rather quickly, also if I were to mez a mob that hasnt had any dmg to it yet I was still able to med up and quickly... and to refute(sp?) some of the other posts I saw if you dont attack the mobs you can med (before heals of course) so just sit while they are attacking and dont heal unless you need to, if you are dps caster dont cast or send pet in if you need to med... etc. etc..

 

[Thinkmeats]

I just don't see the real REASON for the change in the first place. Nothing was broken about the old med system and there wasn't really too many complaints that come to mind.

As I read it, it was playing hob with the super late raid game.

 

[Lyte]

For us with fewer characters and less equipment, substitution of healing means we rotate people in and out of the CH chain, giving them time to med longer periods without constantly being in the CH chain until they are oom.

I am fairly certain that this is against the rules, and shouldnt work according to how CH works on this server. If it does, it is most likely a bug.

If I am understanding the "strategy" correctly ... it IS against the server rules.

It's not against the rules.

The rules are that only CH chains of 3 clerics can be used, and that's followed on every raid. The 3 clerics may alternate at some point, but at any given time the CH chain only has 3 clerics. GMs watch a lot of our raids so they have seen it already.

 

[Diarrah]

If your chain is going oom with 10-15% left, maybe you are not meant to be able to beat that encounter yet. Kill stuff you are able to kill, gear up your healers, gear up your dps, and the next time you try it they wont run out of mana. This is pretty much the core concept behind raiding.

Yes..god forbid you try something that requires skill! :brow: Come on seriously..the game is about pushing yourself..not killing things that don't make you think. I get sick of people that talk about only soloing LB's...only tackling raid mobs that you KNOW you can beat...if you aren't willing to takes chances yourself...don't pick on those that are willing to advance through skill and not easy street.

 

[Diarrah]

For us with fewer characters and less equipment, substitution of healing means we rotate people in and out of the CH chain, giving them time to med longer periods without constantly being in the CH chain until they are oom.

I am fairly certain that this is against the rules, and shouldnt work according to how CH works on this server. If it does, it is most likely a bug.

If I am understanding the "strategy" correctly ... it IS against the server rules.

If this is against the rules...why do you have clerics?!?!?!?! :brow: I mean..how is Cleric 1 runs OOM so Cleric 2 picks up heals while cleric 1 sits against the rules? If so..then grats every person on the server for breaking the rules because god forbid a group have a secondary healer. If it's a "rule" to only allow one person to heal then there is alot of explaining to be done.

 

[Lyte]

No offense captain, but the healing changes don't affect the large manapool characters as much as the lower ones. For you and Forsaken, most fights end with healers and Clerics never reaching oom once. Therefore, the changes do not affect you.

Not true. Don't make assumptions about what you have no idea.

Ok, so on a raid, how will the changes affect characters with massive manapools? Fact is, all you can do on a raid now is heal until oom, and then you are done. With characters with large manapools, most raid fights for you probably never reach a point where healers are oom--therefore after the patch, the meditation changes made little difference.

For the raiders that maximize regeneration to beat bosses that other guilds use much better geared characters or more characters for, now they can't.

For us with fewer characters and less equipment, substitution of healing means we rotate people in and out of the CH chain, giving them time to med longer periods without constantly being in the CH chain until they are oom.

I am fairly certain that this is against the rules, and shouldnt work according to how CH works on this server. If it does, it is most likely a bug.

Look at above post for why it's not against the rules, because the CH chain only has 3 clerics at any given time. We're not breaking some mechanics where 4 clerics are landing CH.

We do the same with padders, because being able to take turns padding and having others med fully without having to stand up to pad = optimal efficiency. We can essentially outperform other healing teams because of this efficiency.

Why not have all of your padders going, but padding a little less so that they don't blow through their mana. Its the same result.

How is it the same result? Before patch, if padders have to constantly sit and med, then stand up to pad, then sit and med, then stand up to pad... this is less efficient. We're all about maximizing efficiency, resources and skill, and having all padders going and healing less is less efficient. The reason we can have JUST the right amount of padders going to compensate for DPS spikes is to maximize efficiency. If we have all padders going, it's wasting mana regeneration because sitting and medding then standing up every so often = less overall mana regeneration.

You can no longer "constantly" kill DB anymore because you can no longer chain pull. Meditating is halted as soon as a member of your group engages and you are in the mob's range. You can chain-pull DBs until you are oom, then med to full, but this is now not that much better than unleashing MASSIVE DPS on a one mob after another, then medding to full in-between the pulls. Try it out and compare. Before patch, chain-pulling was by far the best exp. Now, they are about the same.

Have you even tried this? What mobs are you talking about? It sounds like you are just pulling this out of your ass too. Find me proof that zerging down level 60+ mobs and then medding and repeating is more xp-efficient than constantly pulling mid 50's mobs.

Yes, in Kedge, Miel C, and Fire's Grotto, we've been doing some exp runs without hard data collection on exp/hour or AA/hour, but by estimating the AA/hour it's easy to see chain-pulling is not as big of an advantage as unloading massive DPS.

Note the key words: I did not say it was more EFFICIENT, I said that chain-pulling is still better; however, the GAP between the two strategies has been lessened by the patch. Before, you got more benefits from chain-pulling versus stupid unleashing DPS strategies, now, they are about the same with chain-pulling being slightly better.

 

[Duma]

Skill or no skill if you don't have the cleric mana pool or raid dps you aren't going to win the encoutner and after your clerics go oom and the MT drops it's nothing but a mad zerg.


The skill is in your monks and SK's splitting encounters and making pulls.

The skill is in your padders knowing when to pad intelligently so they use the least amount of mana bridging to when the next CH lands.

Skill is knowng when to blow your cooldowns or a chain cleric saving someone with a Althunas Remedy in the middle of a cycle.

 

[Zalman]

If your chain is going oom with 10-15% left, maybe you are not meant to be able to beat that encounter yet. Kill stuff you are able to kill, gear up your healers, gear up your dps, and the next time you try it they wont run out of mana. This is pretty much the core concept behind raiding.

Yes..god forbid you try something that requires skill! :brow: Come on seriously..the game is about pushing yourself..not killing things that don't make you think. I get sick of people that talk about only soloing LB's...only tackling raid mobs that you KNOW you can beat...if you aren't willing to takes chances yourself...don't pick on those that are willing to advance through skill and not easy street.

That's all fine and good, but there are some times when you simply do not have enough mana for heals or enough DPS to take something.

In those situations, the only three options you have are:

1) Increase total healer mana pool.

2) Increase total DPS.

3) Increase both.

That means either adding more characters or improving gear on existing characters.

There's a difference between challenging your group and hammering your skull against a brick wall for no good reason.

 

[Lyte]

If your chain is going oom with 10-15% left, maybe you are not meant to be able to beat that encounter yet. Kill stuff you are able to kill, gear up your healers, gear up your dps, and the next time you try it they wont run out of mana. This is pretty much the core concept behind raiding.

Yes..god forbid you try something that requires skill! :brow: Come on seriously..the game is about pushing yourself..not killing things that don't make you think. I get sick of people that talk about only soloing LB's...only tackling raid mobs that you KNOW you can beat...if you aren't willing to takes chances yourself...don't pick on those that are willing to advance through skill and not easy street.

This is exactly the point.

The game is NOT about having X HP, Y MANA, and Z AC, and then suddenly getting a, "Congratulations, here is your Inner Prison Loot."

The statistics and gear make a huge difference and YES every raid mob requires a certain "minimum" amount of stats before you have a chance of success; however, skill should make a huge difference as well. Anything that takes elements of skill away from a game I am against, unless the game is ridiculously hard.

I don't get why people like Jose say, "If your raid wiped, go get more gear, it's that simple, you are not ready to fight that encounter." There isn't just 1 way to beat most bosses. What if other strategies utilize your raid force better, and you can overcome some of the handicaps other strategies have?

Is that what this game is about? Simply getting enough HP/AC/MANA so that a boss is trivial? What happened to fighting mobs with LESS people, with worse gear, and proving that skill makes a difference? That's fun too imo.

Remember old times when it was not about killing X boss, because it has been done already? It was about killing X boss with half the number of people? I remember beating AoW in that old game first on the server with a MT using the Blackened Breastplate (25 AC, no stats). That thrill drives raiding for me.

 

[Zurash]

As a Beast main and wizzy alt, I like the changes. I almost never sit during fights anyway, and the only time I did need to previously was to try and regain mana after buffing a group/raid with my crappy single buffs.

Medding in between fights on both chars is now much improved and I can quickly be full and ready for more pulls. As has been stated by others, if you wish to chain pull do so, just hold off casting/fighting until you need to...if things are that bad that you are going to die on another pull, you need to hold pulls anyway.

 

[Lyte]

If you really want to put something like Meditation in the game, there are ways to balance it to still maintain the risk vs reward.

For example, what about an activated skill called Meditation that every casting character has (or an equivalent for melee without manabars).

The skill may have a 5-minute cool-down and when activated, puts your character in a sitting position. If you are uninteruppted, do not move/cast/stand for 30 seconds, you begin meditating at a rapid pace (HP or Mana). HOWEVER, if you are attacked or damaged in meditation mode, you will sustain 300% damage for that attack.

If you stand or do anything while meditating, the skill cancels and cool-down resets.

See, skills like this can be worked on to work out the kinks and be an applicable skill. You can also tailor it to function differently in different situations. You don't want the skill to be used at all on Y Boss? Then simply have the boss cast a massive-area effect 1 dmg spell every 25 seconds.

 

[gtoo]

Ok, so on a raid, how will the changes affect characters with massive manapools? Fact is, all you can do on a raid now is heal until oom, and then you are done. With characters with large manapools, most raid fights for you probably never reach a point where healers are oom--therefore after the patch, the meditation changes made little difference.

Now, I said don't make assumptions for a reason. That reason is because you are COMPLETELY wrong in this statement.

For the raiders that maximize regeneration to beat bosses that other guilds use much better geared characters or more characters for, now they can't.

Quit making this thread retarded with your guild's boasting.

Look at above post for why it's not against the rules, because the CH chain only has 3 clerics at any given time. We're not breaking some mechanics where 4 clerics are landing CH.

Yes, it does matter. It is against the rules to swap out a cleric in a chain. You must wait 2 mins after the cleric's last ch to add a different one. This rule is there for a reason. The code for this must be broken.

How is it the same result? Before patch, if padders have to constantly sit and med, then stand up to pad, then sit and med, then stand up to pad... this is less efficient. We're all about maximizing efficiency, resources and skill, and having all padders going and healing less is less efficient. The reason we can have JUST the right amount of padders going to compensate for DPS spikes is to maximize efficiency. If we have all padders going, it's wasting mana regeneration because sitting and medding then standing up every so often = less overall mana regeneration.

This is exactly what this change is trying to fix, fights extended beyond what is normal by medding and healing. If your padders can't last the fight with their current mana, your guild isn't meant to win the encounter.