LIVE TEST - Mana regen/game fun changes

[Mythryn]

Lytec, please, please stop posting thinking you know all about the raid game after four months.


If you want to use skill, do these things without Coltaine and Zhak (oh wait, you couldn't, trust me)


These changes are for the better in all forms of the raid game, and in exp groups. Oh, say for some reason you can't chain pull in your exp group, sit down for 45 seconds and regen up to 50%. In the raid game, if all your padders are going low on mana each pull, they are padding a bit too much. Use that skill you talk about and have them time the heals, the mobs you are doing don't require huge ammounts of healing.

 

[Lyte]

Lytec, please, please stop posting thinking you know all about the raid game after four months.

If you want to use skill, do these things without Coltaine and Zhak (oh wait, you couldn't, trust me)

These changes are for the better in all forms of the raid game, and in exp groups. Oh, say for some reason you can't chain pull in your exp group, sit down for 45 seconds and regen up to 50%. In the raid game, if all your padders are going low on mana each pull, they are padding a bit too much. Use that skill you talk about and have them time the heals, the mobs you are doing don't require huge ammounts of healing.

I didn't realize that experience in SoD was all that matters. Raid experience from old Live, from WoW, from all the other games have no significance or relevance?

I was waiting for someone to pull the Coltaine card, and as many have said, there are valid reasons for both sides to argue that point so why bring it up here? Fact is rest of the guild is still gearing from brand new. Also, the other fact (and this is your point) is that having a geared MT makes a difference. So both sides have valid reasons.

I mean, using your own arguments Jose, using Colt wouldn't be a skill-issue because your answer to everything is get more HP, AC and MANA.

I have no idea where I suggested padders were going low on raids on every pull.

Please stop thinking I have to stop posting just because I disagree with you on raid mechanics? Or do we have to agree with you because there's only 1 right mechanic to raids? If you disagree, then post why meditation changes do not detract from skill, or why the changes are good. Why use responses such as, "You have played 4 months you don't know anything."

 

[rab]

Look at above post for why it's not against the rules, because the CH chain only has 3 clerics at any given time. We're not breaking some mechanics where 4 clerics are landing CH.

Heh, yeah. You are.

 

[Lyte]

Look at above post for why it's not against the rules, because the CH chain only has 3 clerics at any given time. We're not breaking some mechanics where 4 clerics are landing CH.

Heh, yeah. You are.

-_- It's just not explained properly.

We know a 4th cleric will always get the "It will not hold" message.

Let's say a Cleric in the CH Chain dies after his first cast of CH, later on, a new Cleric takes the dead Cleric's spot in the CH Chain.

That's an exploit?

 

[rab]

If it's 2 minutes later, no.

 

[Lyte]

If it's 2 minutes later, no.

Yeah, we know there's a long duration before a new Cleric can land a CH.

(most of our fights last excessively long which is why we even can maximize mana regen and new clerics in rotations etc etc, everyone knows we lack DPS and suck

 

[gtoo]

So you are stopping the chain, going on all pads for 2 mins, then starting again?

 

[rab]

In any case, Lyte, you're assuming highEndGuild2 is only fighting mobs that are trivial to them. Deyranni, Yashira, Taeshlin, Gharontosh -- these mobs are not trivial, and even though I wasn't there, it's rather offensive to say that my friends achieved nothing by beating those mobs and used no skill.

I think Myth was trying to say that since you tout your skill and lack of gear so often, it's curious that you use that gear and ignore it when people point out the contradiction. Gear and skill are not mutually exclusive, and I think we should all realize that.

 

[Allielyn]

I didn't realize that experience in SoD was all that matters. Raid experience from old Live, from WoW, from all the other games have no significance or relevance?

Not NO significance/relevance, but it obviously doesn't make you an expert regarding THIS game.

Lytec, other players who have a LOT more experience from THIS game, at all levels of the raid game, in raiding guilds, have said their experience differs from what you're claiming. You're basically telling them that if their experience is different, then they must not be doing it right! Your narcissistic and dismissive attitude is not only incredibly rude to those people who are trying to help you see how end game raiding really works, but it's preventing you from actually getting any valid points you may have across.

Just an observation.

 

[Lyte]

I didn't realize that experience in SoD was all that matters. Raid experience from old Live, from WoW, from all the other games have no significance or relevance?

Not NO significance/relevance, but it obviously doesn't make you an expert regarding THIS game.

Lytec, other players who have a LOT more experience from THIS game, at all levels of the raid game, in raiding guilds, have said their experience differs from what you're claiming. You're basically telling them that if their experience is different, then they must not be doing it right! Your narcissistic and dismissive attitude is not only incredibly rude to those people who are trying to help you see how end game raiding really works, but it's preventing you from actually getting any valid points you may have across.

Just an observation.

2 people disagree. Gtoo's comments I can understand where he's coming from.

Jose's comments is just saying "get more HP/AC/Mana."

I'm not saying they aren't doing things right, they obviously have done the content of this game; why can't we discuss the mechanics of raiding on the forums without in-game politics between guilds being involved?

Why do you assume that one way is "how end game raiding" really works?

Should people not be allowed to post at all because we haven't been to Inner Prison? It's just a discussion forum isn't it? If anything, reading the posts Jose has attacked me with direct insults, while Gtoo has tried to use well-reasoned arguments.

I valued Gtoo's comments and tried to argue with him, doesn't mean I am demeaning him, but I am trying to discuss various points.

 

[Lyte]

In any case, Lyte, you're assuming highEndGuild2 is only fighting mobs that are trivial to them. Deyranni, Yashira, Taeshlin, Gharontosh -- these mobs are not trivial, and even though I wasn't there, it's rather offensive to say that my friends achieved nothing by beating those mobs and used no skill.

I think Myth was trying to say that since you tout your skill and lack of gear so often, it's curious that you use that gear and ignore it when people point out the contradiction. Gear and skill are not mutually exclusive, and I think we should all realize that.

That's fine. That's why I said in-game politics should probably not be brought in, when Jose's first comment to me was "if you can't beat the mob get more HP/AC/MANA" it kind of led me onto the wrong path from the get go.

I admire all that Forsaken's done (and Legacy) and they by all means have more experience and have done all that can be done. In that sense alone their word has more credibility; however, Jose's first few posts were almost an attack, almost like we cannot speak if are not in Forsaken's shoes.

Regardless, I'll leave this thread alone and in-game politics out. Thanks for the comments Gtoo/Rab/Allie.

PS - And yes, the changes make the game more fast-paced and more fun for regular grouping and some solo'ers. That has never been a question. I was trying to debate the aspect of whether difficulty level in the game has been affected.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Why is it that the vast majority of this thread is worried about the impact on the raidgame, which, while awesome and important, isn't close to being even half of SoD gameplay? I've thought about this a bunch and I think I know what it MIGHT be like, but fuck if I know for sure, because this change is way way way too huge to accurately predict. It's great that you can figure out how to score a touchdown with your IP linebackers but that's a hell of a lot more of a controlled environment than grouped stuff. All I'm saying is have some caution, and try to remember that the grouped game does still exist, and it's gonna feel these changes far more than the raid game will. I can think of a bunch of things that might happen, or will happen, and it's just plain too early to tell whether they'll all work out about evenly or end up out of whack. It'll be weeks at least before we can clearly see what all the fallout is.

Also,

I didn't realize that experience in SoD was all that matters. Raid experience from old Live, from WoW, from all the other games have no significance or relevance?

I think you'll find that experience from elsewhere helps you manage your guild, but nothing else. There's a lot of obvious and subtle differences between the classes here and on live, and it just takes time before you get used to everything. Experience from elsewhere makes that transition smoother and faster, but it's not everything, and usually it helps to have a longer-term SoD perspective when talking about big chagnes like these. Give it time: You guys are awesome enough, everything else will fall into place on its own.

 

[Mythryn]

Wha? Where did I say anything in regards to you about Forsaken? I didn't. And in regards to attacks directed at you, I merely meant for you to see that most of the mobs you are going to be fighting are about HP/AC/MANA, as you put it. Its about beefing up your entire force in those aspects and learning basic strategy. So yes, in essence, get more HP/AC/MANA...

 

[Duma]

If it's 2 minutes later, no.

(most of our fights last excessively long which is why we even can maximize mana regen and new clerics in rotations etc etc, everyone knows we lack DPS and suck

You were raiding NToV the other day with 25 undergeared and AA'd characters including help from Coltaine and Zhak. That is why your fights are lasting exessively long.
When Ruin was at your stage we were raiding Deepfiend, Parcelan, West ToV, Coralsha, and that Akhevan place which doesn't exist anymore back in the day.

I'd suggest you get some of your raid core into Cmal and start gearing and AA'ing up there when you aren't raiding.

 

[Thinkmeats]

You were raiding NToV the other day with 25 undergeared and AA'd characters including help from Coltaine and Zhak. That is why your fights are lasting exessively long.
When Ruin was at your stage we were raiding Deepfiend, Parcelan, West ToV, Coralsha, and that Akhevan place which doesn't exist anymore back in the day.

I'd suggest you get some of your raid core into Cmal and start gearing and AA'ing up there when you aren't raiding.

If Steel went into cmal any harder they'd be paying child support. Agreed about the rest, though.

 

[Allielyn]

It appears to me that there's a lot of miscommunication going on . . . a lot of talking past each other. In an effort to help clear up misunderstandings (and help other readers make sense of what's being said) I will attempt to elucidate Jose's argument.

[Jose is trying to say] Just because you wipe to a mob doesn't mean you can't do him (of course, we retry and succeed all the time!) It may take different strats: offtanking adds instead of mezzing; bringing in more caster dps instead of melee dps, etc. etc. The beauty of raiding in the end game on SoD is that every encounter is different, you have to be able to adjust your strategies for that, and there's plenty of room for different strategies, for the most part. However, if you repeatedly try and fail, perhaps you will need to gear up before you reengage: this is what Jose was referring to. (PS Jose if that's not what you meant, sorry for misunderstanding your argument!)

[Lytec almost appears to be saying] A guild could take on mobs tiers above themselves by developing new strategies or using their skills to best effect. In the case of meditation changes, having many healers med through most of a fight in stages helps that guild have enough mana to take on mobs that they otherwise would not be able to; and this strategy is hurt by these changes.(Please, correct me if I misunderstand your argument!)

[Allie is trying to say] This is the way the raid game is set up. There are "tiers," you must gear through one "tier" and get a certain amount of gear and experience (AAs) before you can reasonably expect to move on to the next. Of course, you don't need every single guildie to have all the gear from one tier, but it helps. And it is also the reason that using a few key members from higher tiers helps so much. This is what I meant by "how end game raiding really works" (in other words, no you Couldn't take on a mob tiers above you just because you use different strategies and/or skills, and if you did do so it would most likely be by exploitation.)


I hope I have made all the arguments clearer. If this isn't what you meant to say, I'm sorry, but you must understand whether or not it's what you MEAN to say, it's what people are actually SEEING you say. (there is, of course, a difference.)

 

[Lyte]

No, you hit it on the spot Allielyn, I was talking about strategies within the same tier of raiding, and being able to do mobs other guilds may not be able to through different/new strategies and the new patch eliminating a lot of alternative strategies for maximizing mana regen (all within the same tier of raiding, not jumping tiers).

I just got side-tracked when it seemed like guilds were being compared and credibility was given just because of guild tags.

I'm holding my word though, going to refrain from posting on this thread further, thanks for summarizing Allie. I like the changes overall for grouping because it minimizes downtime and increases the pace of the game, I just felt it makes the game easier too.

On more important notes I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but you can meditate through Bard-mez, and sometimes you can meditate even though you are nuking/healing and in-combat. Not sure how to replicate results on the latter.

 

[Korinth]

I'm going to bust out my 42/30 scepter of the arch sultan, equip that 30% haste ciadrian crystal, get full buffs, and have someone parse Naoma's leet druid dps (since I'm too lazy/stupid to parse myself) ... just to make my monk look even more pathetic. I wonder if I can pass her off as a ranger now?

But yea, I think this idea is awesome. I don't know about other people, but I usually stayed away from playing healers because sitting around and just /stand /cast # every few minutes was boring, so I'm definitely looking forward to playing priests in particular now - since I won't get yelled at for not sitting quietly in the corner to med.

 

[Sanyia]

Ok, so after trying it out last night, I think the changes make grouping a bit too easy for a Cleric. I felt as if my not so well equipped lv 42 Cleric was in God mode.

True, I was in a high dps full group, and we had an enchanter, but the warrior could pull 4 mobs every time no problem. Why would I even bother casting single healls when I can group heal while tanking and be full mana for the next fight?

I then took my Druid and Cleric somewhere else by themselves and the super regen was real nice. I can't do certain harder mobs, but normal blues die without problems. Cleric has 160 wis, Druid 137, because I am a cheapskate and she's just my port ho.

 

[Duma]

Ok, so after trying it out last night, I think the changes make grouping a bit too easy for a Cleric. I felt as if my not so well equipped lv 42 Cleric was in God mode.

True, I was in a high dps full group, and we had an enchanter, but the warrior could pull 4 mobs every time no problem. Why would I even bother casting single healls when I can group heal while tanking and be full mana for the next fight?

Because you can't do that for L60+ mobs?