Incentives for Less-Popular Six Man Zones

DodoBot

DodoBot

Dalayan Elder
Due to the popularity of some six man areas at the high tiers of the game, I've often wondered why certain (especially lower tier) zones are very infrequently done when they offer otherwise great encounters. I realize this topic isn't new, but I wanted to create this thread as a discussion of the overall state of six mans.

Most of us realize that the most highly sought-after six man areas (Emberflow, Fae) offer a combination of good experience, cash loot, and excellent boss drops. In the case of Emberflow, we can add BOEs, quest drops, and Irreplaceable Tomes to that list. Taking a group to these places offers incentives even if you aren't going for a particular drop, and they also have chances at some of the best items available outside of raids.

At the next tier down in desirability are the places where the zone is a well-used exp zone with one or more six-man encounters available in it. OG, Cita, and BQ fall into this category. The primary incentive to doing these six mans is to get a specific item from a boss, but there are separate good reasons to exp in these zones (BOEs, cash, tomes). For lower tier characters, CMal offers another good example of a zone which is primarily targeted for bosses, but still offers great exp and random drop items - though the cash loot could be much better.

As an important point, I'd also like to add that there is a lack of low to mid tier six man content. CMal is the only reasonable offering to support players from fresh 65 into the low-level raid game. Lower level Emberflow mobs aren't a bad option, but the zone seems far more utilized by top end players than the low-to mid tier. HMal and MieD are too difficult for people who are starting out and Cata, while doable, does not offer good boss drops at all.

Below this is a list of the most common traits of "undesirable" six man areas. These encounters all suffer from one or more of the following problems:
  • Inappropriate tier loot relative to the difficulty of the zone (if a zone requires T10 characters but drops T8 loot, you don't have to wonder why people do not go there).
  • Lack of cash, tome, or BOE incentive for those not after a specific item from a boss.
  • Poor experience relative to the difficulty or kill time of the mobs.
I want to solicit the opinions of players and staff on how this could be addressed. Off the top of my head, here are a few things which I thing could be done to improve the current system.
  • Consider improving the boss loot and cash from Cata and perhaps and some trash-drop BOEs.
  • Improve itemization and cash in HatesfuryB - this also helps to get more people ready for the refuge faction and the Ikisith raid game and puts some good content to work.
  • Decrease difficulty of MielD and offer better cash incentives to going there for characters who would actually use the boss loot.
  • If the remake of Dreadfang Spire could ever be completed, that would offer a perfect opportunity for another broad-tier Cmal - like zone. (Though I realize content creation is hard and we have a lot to do)
  • I'm not really sure how to get the word out about HMal - maybe if there were some quests tied to going there or if there were things to do in the outdoor "A" side...
  • Ethereal Dojo is so underplayed, almost nobody I know was even available to comment... Someone chime in here, please!
  • Nadox was amazing back in the day, but I hear it's a nightmare to code and nobody played there anyway because of lack of (outside Nadox) loot...
  • Better cash incentives in WS (although I've heard this zone is being examined at present, so I'm hesitant to talk about it).
  • Increase the availability of quest drops throughout this content. Vah drops in Emberflow are yet another reason people like a zone which is already popular for good reason.
I realize this is a lot to digest. I'm curious to hear what other people think. Any ideas on the grand theme of underplayed six-mans would be appreciated.

Some previous discussions can be found at:
Windstone thread: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/threads/windstone-feedback.28652/
Mielech D thread: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/threads/mielechs-laboratory-feedback.29117/#post-294757
 
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Mielech D has pretty difficult/high HP mobs for a relatively low cash/exp return with bosses that are too hard for the loot that they drop (or loot that is too bad for the bosses they come from, depends how you look at it). Catacombs trash money is pretty awful for a 6 man zone but the exp seems pretty decent for the mob health pools, overall the loot in that zone kind of sucks save like 2 or 3 items. HMal trash is pretty decent exp but bad money but the bosses drop some pretty good items so i think its a pretty well balanced place. Windstone suffers from poverty syndrome too, poor exp and money reward from pretty difficult mobs. I know a bunch of dudes who want loot from their (last boss in particular) but dont want to spend 2 hours clearing to a named to make way less plat and get way less exp then spending half the time in another zone with that same group. Windstone/MielechD/Dojo shouldnt give as much exp/plat as a regular EXP zone, but when they are so far off that the only real reward is loot it makes them pretty undesirable to spend time in.
 
Thank you for making this post. I agree with much of what you have said. Recently iv done some windstone so that's the one I'll mention. The xp is whatever. The cash is non existent. It takes forever to get to the named mobs. On top of that all the difficulty of the encounters for the loot table is not balanced. Not saying their is not a few nice items in here because there is. Just saying for the most part unbalanced. So what I'm really curious about is how much time would it take to go through and add a little bit of xp to these 6 man zones (within reason). Also how much time would it take to add some reasonable plat to these zones? I didn't go to ITT tech but it seems to me like something like that would be fairly easy to do? Also for the record I'm for revamping all of these things mentioned in this initial post. At the same time I realize that devs have real lives and real jobs as well as other sodly projects to work on. So revamping the xp and plat was just a priority idea depending on how time consuming it would be.
 
My general feelings on the so called "Underused" zones:
Cata - Very good exp, and spell drops are pretty common as well which results in a reasonable about of money. Loot from bosses is meh but there are quest drops too, I think this zone is okay as is.
HMal - Cash is bad, but exp is good and it's pretty darn short clears to get to bosses with some very good loot, I think this zone is also okay.
Miel's Lab - I haven't explored the zone a ton but from what I've seen both trash and bosses are harder than what people had quoted as, and what the boss loots would indicate as, the "intended tier." Either easier mobs or better cash and loots are likely warranted
Windstone - Cash is just awful for the difficulty. The trash is more difficult than any zone other than probably Citadel, BQ, and bloodfires in FR and I've come out with under 100 plat after 2+ hours exping in zone. Compare to Emberflow where "cash nameds" drop loots that vendor for 3-5k or more if you get the rare drop. Most of the boss loot I have seen seems on par with the mobs, though some is underwhelming but that happens everywhere so not a huge deal. Basically: maybe tone down trash difficulty slightly, but definitely needs help cash wise for sure.
 
taosanterior said:
My general feelings on the so called "Underused" zones:
Cata - Very good exp, and spell drops are pretty common as well which results in a reasonable about of money. Loot from bosses is meh but there are quest drops too, I think this zone is okay as is.
HMal - Cash is bad, but exp is good and it's pretty darn short clears to get to bosses with some very good loot, I think this zone is also okay.
Miel's Lab - I haven't explored the zone a ton but from what I've seen both trash and bosses are harder than what people had quoted as, and what the boss loots would indicate as, the "intended tier." Either easier mobs or better cash and loots are likely warranted
Windstone - Cash is just awful for the difficulty. The trash is more difficult than any zone other than probably Citadel, BQ, and bloodfires in FR and I've come out with under 100 plat after 2+ hours exping in zone. Compare to Emberflow where "cash nameds" drop loots that vendor for 3-5k or more if you get the rare drop. Most of the boss loot I have seen seems on par with the mobs, though some is underwhelming but that happens everywhere so not a huge deal. Basically: maybe tone down trash difficulty slightly, but definitely needs help cash wise for sure.
Click to expand...

To play devil's advocate here on a couple of points -

Cata on tier is a lot slower, so the exp is not as fast as a high-end group would have. The boss loot is still not good compared to BOEs. A lower level player is better off farming a cash zone and buying gear than trying for loot from here.
HMal - I agree with you for the most part, but it still isn't played a lot. Do you think this is because of the entry quest, it being out of the way, or are there just easier loot options around?
MielD - I pretty much agree with you here. Too difficult for what it gets you (and perhaps the key quest may also be a deterrent, although it is completely doable as a fresh 65)
WS - On point. IMO, a combination of slightly easier trash and either better cash item drops from trash, or BOE dropper "cash named" à la Emberflow could be warranted

As far as the other underplayed zones I mentioned, any comment on:

Ethereal Dojo
HatesfuryB (as a potential six man style zone)
Dreadfang Spire (the potential for a re-make at some point)
Nadox - (assuming it's ever brought back)
 
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DodoBot said:
To play devil's advocate here on a couple of points -
HMal - I agree with you for the most part, but it still isn't played a lot? Do you think this is because of the entry quest, it being out of the way? Or there just being easier loot options?
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The entry quest is a part of it, but the fights in hmal and the clearing in hmal for that matter is hard for the tier of loot that it drops. With the exception of the final boss, characters who can kill the hmal bosses won't use the loot from them.
 
Ethereal Dojo

Used to be cool. Then it got turned into a 6 man / 18 man hybrid that nobody really knows what to do with and was way too hard for it's tier. After the change those of us who had already been playing in the zone for a few weeks got "punished" for being there.

It was like Slaar didn't want people playing in his zone.
 
HatesfuryB: Servers its purpose as a zone where you get your 1 quest done there AFAIK. Don't think it was designed to be farmed.
Dojo: I've been sending Slaar a lot of feedback on this zone (as per instructed to do when you zone in) and gotten no response. So I've given up on it. The zone is conceptually interesting but in reality broken and a huge waste of time. It would be completely ignored except for an interesting clicky or 2. It's "supposed" to be a ~T5 6-man area with a ~T9 raid area behind the 6-man area.

fuwok said:
With the exception of the final boss, characters who can kill the hmal bosses won't use the loot from them.
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This is true for MielD too except there's no final boss that drops phatz.
 
I talked to Slaar a few months ago when we were doing dojo and he said everything in the zone was fair game to be raided, nothing is restricted to 6man. It really needs some tuning though since some nameds can be 2boxed and others would absolutely destroy a full raid of t10 dudes.

It would be really cool if devs would throw basic info for new content onto the wiki when they release it, like Eisley did for his catmob 6man. Mob name, zone they are in, targeted raid/6man tier. Just having that info would make it a ton easier for players to give good feedback as opposed to the way things usually work.
 
Also, the money loot from hmal clears was dismal and/or non-existent. I'm not sure if that changed, but it would be nice to have all the loot in there on bosses 1-3 given a bump and then actual platinum and boe items (% to drop off any tentacle maybe) on the mobs.
 
IMO:

It's tricky to gauge the MielD bosses, but the trash could use less hp for sure, and probably a bit less damage. Also money drops would be nice. MielD is a cool zone with some unique rewards, making it a worthwhile zone, but still lacks enough elements to make it a place to prioritize over other content currently.
 
fuwok said:
Also, the money loot from hmal clears was dismal and/or non-existent. I'm not sure if that changed, but it would be nice to have all the loot in there on bosses 1-3 given a bump and then actual platinum and boe items (% to drop off any tentacle maybe) on the mobs.
Click to expand...
Just did a boss in hmal (evidently basically the only one that's ever killed) and the cash was as low as to be non-existent. A few plat (2-5) in the form of a trash drop EVERY OTHER KILL AT BEST. There were a lot of them, but the cash was just really terrible. The EXP wasn't great either, even factoring in the larger than average pulls, ESPECIALLY when you consider the relative difficulty.

Now, we just did one boss, but the others were up. One was at the very bottom of track, and supposedly could very well have been there for years. No other incentive other than NODROP loot. Which is a shame, since there were some otherwise useful items on the table - just not useful for the difficulty of the boss, I was told.


For me, cash is an integral part of character progression and is more important than ever now that we have to buy and translate tomes without 500+ AAs worth of cheap codexes(codices?) to do first.

When you spend an hour clearing towards an enemy that will drop ONE THING of a pool near full of things that will rot, coming out empty handed is pretty frustrating. I think that's another factor as to why Emberflow is so popular - and I don't think Emberflow needs to be changed, I think the popularity should be used as a reason to fix up other zones.
 
It seems like there are some common threads in the replys here, so I'm going to take aim at some low hanging fruit...
  • Emberflow is the baseline by which all six-mans are judged - keep that as is.
  • Shadowdale also seems to be serving exactly the role it should as well - keep as is.
Start with these (easy tweaks) -
  • Increase cash drops in the following zones: Windstone, Cata, Hmal, MielD, Hatesfury, (Dojo?)
  • Slightly reduce difficulty of trash: MielD
Then later move to (harder to implement tweaks)
  • Look at boss itemization in the following zones: Cata, Hatesfury, (MielD?)
  • Adjust boss difficulty: Windstone, Hmal
  • Increase exp in: MielD, Hatesfury, (Hmal?)
 
IMO:

Windstone is fine as is, after playing in it a bit more. The gear check is sure harder, so maybe some of the loot could be improved (not by alot, mainly things like focus effects, there's some 6's that should be 7's is all). The clears can be pretty long, so some hp reduction or quantity of mob reduction wouldn't hurt, but also not needed.
 
Personally don't see the problems your having with hmal mobs. I did these all except the purple guy on tier and they seemed on point.
 
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