Cane of Calcifcation, please look at it.

[Wesell]

Right, I think the people are getting confused by the fact that weapon damage represents a range of damage, but that doesn't have any effect on the relationship between damage and delay. If the average hit for a weapon is 50% of it's potential, the power of a 10/20 and a 20/40 are still the same.

 

[Thinkmeats]

AC, monster and player alike, is a % reduction. A faster weapon is not "penalized" more by AC. The only thing a faster weapon is better at is proccing effects like Rbow and making aggro.

edit: On the topic of making a mob for players to parse off of, I don't want to get into the discussion, but I will say that we (staff) do run parses pretty often on our own. Tinkaa used to lots, Allielyn still does, and I've taken to doing it from time to time. So while your short parse may not mean a hell of a lot on its own, and we probably won't enact changes based off it--notice Jedz's completely contextless parses earlier--we do however use them as pointers to tell us what we *should* parse. Personally, I plan to rig up a series of parses to find out exactly how much dps a proc is worth. If I can figure out a solid formula for that, I can then use it to better-balance any proccing weapon overall, and more specifically to give an insight on this cane.

 

[khador]

now im no pro at coding or anything... but i would guess the main benefit to a faster weapon would be that its going to trigger double/triple attacks more often... if they are already balanced to do equalish dmg without the doubles/triples... wouldnt hitting more of those push the faster weapons slightly ahead?

 

[AoiMasamune]

In short, no.
That is pretty much what Duma asked, just much shorter.
While a fast delay weapon does trigger more doubles and triples in a short amount of time, it does less damage when it does. Two weapons with equal damage to delay ratios do the exact same damage over any useful length of time. Procs are the only thing that work better on a faster weapon, and that only counts if the fast and slow weapons have the exact same proc.

PS: About my table. It occured to me while looking at other threads that the actual percent chance for a proc to go off is somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8 percent. Since I used 5 percent for my calculations, the actual effect of procs are severely over-exagerated for my 10 minutes period. You would probably have to stretch it out for an hour or so to notice the same deviation between the test weapons if the percentage were correct.

 

[khador]

In short, no.
That is pretty much what Duma asked, just much shorter.
While a fast delay weapon does trigger more doubles and triples in a short amount of time, it does less damage when it does. Two weapons with equal damage to delay ratios do the exact same damage over any useful length of time. Procs are the only thing that work better on a faster weapon, and that only counts if the fast and slow weapons have the exact same proc.

PS: About my table. It occured to me while looking at other threads that the actual percent chance for a proc to go off is somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8 percent. Since I used 5 percent for my calculations, the actual effect of procs are severely over-exagerated for my 10 minutes period. You would probably have to stretch it out for an hour or so to notice the same deviation between the test weapons if the percentage were correct.

is this table assuming all characters have ambidexterity?

 

[AoiMasamune]

The table assumes that all weapons are 1 handed, and that a second weapon is not being wielded. It is purely to test the damage to delay ratio against the overall effect of delay. I won't attempt to argue whether a two handed weapon is better or worse than wielding 2 one handed weapons, and that wasn't the point. So ambidexterity wasn't even considered.

Think of it like this, you're using 2 weapons, and you obtain another weapon with a higher delay that is also one handed. The ratio is identical to both your weapons, but the new one is slower. Assuming you have ambidexterity, so both hands are equally dependent on skill alone for hit rates, you now need to decide which weapon to replace, or if your dps would suffer if you switched to a slower weapon.

Then the table would fit.

 

[Allielyn]

It occured to me while looking at other threads that the actual percent chance for a proc to go off is somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8 percent.

If I recall correctly, proc rates vary by weapon and are set by an item designer. They may have wildly different proc rates. (Which is one reason I asked for the proc rate with parses).

 

[khador]

The table assumes that all weapons are 1 handed, and that a second weapon is not being wielded. It is purely to test the damage to delay ratio against the overall effect of delay. I won't attempt to argue whether a two handed weapon is better or worse than wielding 2 one handed weapons, and that wasn't the point. So ambidexterity wasn't even considered.

Think of it like this, you're using 2 weapons, and you obtain another weapon with a higher delay that is also one handed. The ratio is identical to both your weapons, but the new one is slower. Assuming you have ambidexterity, so both hands are equally dependent on skill alone for hit rates, you now need to decide which weapon to replace, or if your dps would suffer if you switched to a slower weapon.

Then the table would fit.

reason i was asking was because if it was in the offhand you have to factor in dual wield checks also. but i was aware the table was based around 1h primary mostly. i am still a fan of faster weapons myself. but i wouldnt mind grabbing a few weapons sometime and parsing em just for fun.

 

[Wesell]

reason i was asking was because if it was in the offhand you have to factor in dual wield checks also. but i was aware the table was based around 1h primary mostly. i am still a fan of faster weapons myself. but i wouldnt mind grabbing a few weapons sometime and parsing em just for fun.

Your dual-weild skill will fail 20%, 50%, 80% or whatever based on your skill level. This still doesn't give any advantage to a faster or slower weapon.

 

[Duma]

AC, monster and player alike, is a % reduction. A faster weapon is not "penalized" more by AC. The only thing a faster weapon is better at is proccing effects like Rbow and making aggro.

edit: On the topic of making a mob for players to parse off of, I don't want to get into the discussion, but I will say that we (staff) do run parses pretty often on our own. Tinkaa used to lots, Allielyn still does, and I've taken to doing it from time to time. So while your short parse may not mean a hell of a lot on its own, and we probably won't enact changes based off it--notice Jedz's completely contextless parses earlier--we do however use them as pointers to tell us what we *should* parse. Personally, I plan to rig up a series of parses to find out exactly how much dps a proc is worth. If I can figure out a solid formula for that, I can then use it to better-balance any proccing weapon overall, and more specifically to give an insight on this cane.

Only a very small % reduction. The other 75% is completely random assuming you've hit your potential mitigation cap.

Riddle me this.

If weapon X has a damage range of 1-100 normal and 1-150 crit range
and
Weapon Y has a damage range of 1-200 and 1-300 crit range
but Weapon Y swings 2x slower which would you prefer assuming you have a 30% crit rate and 10% chance to proc a 100dd spell? Explain.

 

[Duma]

Also another thing to consider is slower weapons take longer to reach their "parse medium" than faster weapons because fast weapons get more reps quicker and are less effected by bad streaks of misses or low range hits. When the average raid boss encounter lasts 5-8 minutes you have a limited time to get your hits in and for your weapon to reach it's intended potential. Faster weapons achieve this, slow weapons do not.

 

[AoiMasamune]

Duma, in your example, weapon X would have an AVERAGE damage of 50 (counting 0 damage as 'miss') and a crit damage range of 75. Where as weapon Y would have an average damage of 100 and crit damage of 150. If weapon Y is exactly half the speed of weapon X than their AVERAGE damage over any length of time is exactly the same. The crit rate is the same on both weapons, so that doesn't effect the average.

I've already demonstrated how in two weapons with the same proc and different speeds, the faster weapon is favored. I don't need to do this again.

Agreed, the slower weapon will have a higher chance of returning extreme results if it is extremely slow, but it will return extremely high parses in short duration raids as often as extremely low ones, leaving the balance intact.

Only effects that fail to take into consideration either the damage or the delay on the weapon, such as a proc, can tip the balance.


TM: I have a suggestion on a formula to evaluate procs.
Assuming the following variables are what the engine is using...

pP = Percentage chance to proc on a given hit.
wDly = Delay on weapon, in tenths of a second.
pDmg = Damage of proc (ignoring partial resists)
pDPS = Damage per second of the proc on the given weapon.

Then this equation should be accurate.

( 1 / ( wDly / 10 ) ) / pP * pDmg = pDPS

Throw in these variables
wDmg = Damage on the weapon in question
wDly = Delay on the weapon in question
wDPS = The UNMODIFIED dps of the weapon. (Basicly, if it were wielded by a level 0 char with 0 STR, and he was attacking a level 0 NPC with 0 AC)

And this equation

( 1 / ( wDly / 10 ) ) * wDmg = wDPS

then wDPS + pDPS = total unmodified DPS of any weapon.

The DPS would be modified up by a characters weapon skill, CHA and STR stat, plus damage bonuses etc... then modified down by a monsters AC and resists, but I believe the above equations can objectively compare any two weapons with a fair degree of accuracy.

EDIT: I threw a program together to test my equations, and while either the weapons dps, or the proc's dps is accurate by itself for the purposes of evaluating a weapon, the two combined is NOT accurate at all due to not counting in the other factors. So ignore the part about adding them. I could make it accurate if I had the exact formulas that the server is using, but I doubt that'll happen.

 

[Wesell]

Only a very small % reduction. The other 75% is completely random assuming you've hit your potential mitigation cap.

Riddle me this.

If weapon X has a damage range of 1-100 normal and 1-150 crit range
and
Weapon Y has a damage range of 1-200 and 1-300 crit range
but Weapon Y swings 2x slower which would you prefer assuming you have a 30% crit rate and 10% chance to proc a 100dd spell? Explain.

No the other 75% is not completely random - it's 75% of the max damage of the weapon. The other example is pretty silly, obviously the faster weapon is better if the proc is exactly the same - no one is disputing that.

Also another thing to consider is slower weapons take longer to reach their "parse medium" than faster weapons because fast weapons get more reps quicker and are less effected by bad streaks of misses or low range hits. When the average raid boss encounter lasts 5-8 minutes you have a limited time to get your hits in and for your weapon to reach it's intended potential. Faster weapons achieve this, slow weapons do not.

You are exaggerating this effect; it’s not realistically an issue. It wouldn’t make sense to consider this as part of your weapon choice criteria, unless it was some kind of a joke weapon with a super long delay (300+), even then 5 – 8 minutes is probably long enough to even your damage out, besides you are just as likely to have a lucky streak with the weapon and parse higher than normal.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Also another thing to consider is slower weapons take longer to reach their "parse medium" than faster weapons because fast weapons get more reps quicker and are less effected by bad streaks of misses or low range hits. When the average raid boss encounter lasts 5-8 minutes you have a limited time to get your hits in and for your weapon to reach it's intended potential. Faster weapons achieve this, slow weapons do not.

Irrelevant to overall dps.

Only a very small % reduction. The other 75% is completely random assuming you've hit your potential mitigation cap.

Riddle me this.

If weapon X has a damage range of 1-100 normal and 1-150 crit range
and
Weapon Y has a damage range of 1-200 and 1-300 crit range
but Weapon Y swings 2x slower which would you prefer assuming you have a 30% crit rate and 10% chance to proc a 100dd spell? Explain.

That other 75% is *ALSO* percent based. There is no AC-based damage mitigation that is not based on shaving a percentage off of incoming damage. The *only* advantage to the faster weapon is that it procs that 100 dd spell twice as often. However, it also generates far more aggro. If I were a tank, I would take the fast weapon for the aggro; if I were a dps, I would take the slow weapon for avoid that aggro.

This isn't complicated.

 

[Duma]

No the other 75% is not completely random - it's 75% of the max damage of the weapon.

Dude, ......nm my mother always told me when I was a teenager to not waste my time arguing with my younger cousins..... :tinfoil:

 

[Allielyn]

No your argument makes no sense.

 

[Thinkmeats]

You're clearly still unconvinced. It's very simple, I don't know why you're not getting it syduck:

Behold:

AC

AC directly translates into a % of potential damage reduction on hits. For example, 1500 AC is ~80% potential reduction. Then, a fourth of that is turned into certain reduction (meaning at 1500 AC you always reduce hits by at least 20%) and the rest is randomized for the true reduction number for a single hit (so reduction is anywhere from 20-80%, and on average 50%, at 1500 AC).

There are two softcaps of AC, and they do not vary based on class. One at 100 (each point before 100 makes a much bigger difference, so that AC on lower levels is more useful), and one at 500 (each point before 500 makes a bigger difference, same reason as above). After 500 all AC is the same.

This, along with percent-to-work skills like block and riposte, is what monsters have. This is the extent of the monster's ability to reduce damage. Monsters do not get damage reduction like players do, or shield-based block, or any of the other wacky ways players have to stop damage. It's here in the tome of knowledge if you've still got questions.

 

[Ponden]

Have you guys actually parsed this claim that procs occur more for RBoW with a fast weapon?

I was always told that proc rate scaled by weapon delay -- Whether it was a buff or on the weapon.

Frankly my ingame experience suggests that it scales with delay. So I'm not sure where this is comming from.

 

[Wesell]

Have you guys actually parsed this claim that procs occur more for RBoW with a fast weapon?

I was always told that proc rate scaled by weapon delay -- Whether it was a buff or on the weapon.

Frankly my ingame experience suggests that it scales with delay. So I'm not sure where this is comming from.

We are not talking about RBoW here - Duma was asking about 2 hypothetical weapons with a weapon proc, and no the proc chance does not scale with the weapon delay - it is weapon specific (some proc alot, some hardly at all). Now to get the chance to trigger the proc you must land a hit, so in that sense faster weapons might be thought of as having an advantage, but the weapon designer will asign the chance to proc and the effect proced based on how powerfull they wish the weapon to be; i.e. if a weapon designer wanted to make two weapons with dd procs that are the same DPS, one twice as fast as the other, they would assign the slower weapon twice the chance to proc or a dd spell that did twice as much damage.

Duma's example was silly becasue he provided two hypothetical weapon, one of which was more powerfull, as some kind of "proof" that faster weapons are better.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Have you guys actually parsed this claim that procs occur more for RBoW with a fast weapon?

I was always told that proc rate scaled by weapon delay -- Whether it was a buff or on the weapon.

Frankly my ingame experience suggests that it scales with delay. So I'm not sure where this is comming from.

I'm not 100% sure on the rbow thing. It's one of the reasons I want to do a bunch of proc parses, actually :toot: