Backstab regarding Haste/Slow

[Allielyn]

This is not true. the dps is a product of the combined effort of the one casting giantkin and the one recieving giantkin so the dps is shared between the 2.

And when ponden says its wrong that a buff like giantkin and haste in general effects rogues less then other mellees he is right. though it could also be said that cunning effect wizards more then mages cause mages gain dps from nukes and pets and wizards from just nukes. So except for the slow destroying rogue dps everything could be considered a feature instead of a bug.

I have to agree with TM when he says giantkin is Enc dps. Yes, it takes two to tango but: without the enchanter there is no giantkin. Without the rogue, the enchanter uses other methods to dps. Whether giantkin is used at all ever is up to the enchanter. If we considered giantkin dps to be 'rogue dps' or 'ranger dps' or 'monk dps' then we'd have to rebalance exactly where those numbers are - since they were all parsed and balanced without it.

The timer on backstab not being affected by giantkin is an interesting result of the client coding, but I'm not convinced its a travesty of justice. Some buffs are better on some classes than others, and I think its more interesting that way. In that respect I see this suggestion along the lines of others where players want all [insert class type here] to have all the same bonuses and same gear and same haste mods and same spell bonuses as other members of [insert same class type here] at the same tier. Other than that argument (which isn't compelling at all), I don't see a compelling reason suggested as to why this should be the case.

What I *am* curious about though is the interesting effect of slow as mentioned in the OP - instead of being taken into account with the total overall haste, it completely replaces it. I don't know if that is intended, but I'd love to see someone "in-the-know" explain if it is or not - and why.

 

[Ryst]

Arguing that a 2nd rogue won't be chosen to raid over a monk, ranger or beastlord because of Giantkin being more efficient on a mnk/bst is not entirely true. With the recast time on giantkin, an enchanter can keep only 2 characters giantkinned anyway. In short, once you have 2 classes in the raid that are able to be giantkinned, the others are superfluous and SOL anyway.

Ryst

 

[Thinkmeats]

This is not true. the dps is a product of the combined effort of the one casting giantkin and the one recieving giantkin so the dps is shared between the 2.

Incorrect. The dps gain from giantkin is enc. The dps that was there prior to giantkin is that of the character being giantkinned. This is not hard.

 

[Mythryn]

Incorrect. The dps gain from giantkin is enc. The dps that was there prior to giantkin is that of the character being giantkinned. This is not hard.

Eh. In the same vein, Haste is Enc/Shaman DPS, RBoW is Wizard DPS, CotP is Ranger DPS, etc etc. But when the staff asks Class X to parse and include raid buffs, these are all taken into account as Class X DPS, not the buffing classes. The only difference between these buffs and Giantkin is that an Enchanter needs to be present. Giantkin is only considered 'Enchanter DPS' because the staff says so.


And the fact that Monks/Rangers get more of a benefit than the melee class that's supposed to do the most DPS seems a bit skewed in terms of balance. I don't see why converting the buff to straight ATK is such a big deal.

 

[CaptHappy]

beyond the semantics of who's dps it is i think everyone's missing the point with giantkin dps anyway, what raidleader takes a rogue over a monk just because monks would get better use out of giantkin

 

[Mythryn]

beyond the semantics of who's dps it is i think everyone's missing the point with giantkin dps anyway, what raidleader takes a rogue over a monk just because monks would get better use out of giantkin

When a monk gets giantkin and does more overall DPS than a rogue, you're dumb if you take the rogue.

 

[Thinkmeats]

When a monk gets giantkin and does more overall DPS than a rogue, you're dumb if you take the rogue.

Except that the comparison is between monk+giantkin vs rogue+nukes (or rogue+giantkin on someone not as good as the monk that was passed), which the rogue set wins.

Eh. In the same vein, Haste is Enc/Shaman DPS, RBoW is Wizard DPS, CotP is Ranger DPS, etc etc. But when the staff asks Class X to parse and include raid buffs, these are all taken into account as Class X DPS, not the buffing classes. The only difference between these buffs and Giantkin is that an Enchanter needs to be present. Giantkin is only considered 'Enchanter DPS' because the staff says so.

And the fact that Monks/Rangers get more of a benefit than the melee class that's supposed to do the most DPS seems a bit skewed in terms of balance. I don't see why converting the buff to straight ATK is such a big deal.

If Mind Wrack did HP damage per person the recourse hit, would it be considered Necro dps or the group's dps? Use your head. If Runes did a 5000 AE DD when they got punched through, that would still obviously be enchanter dps. Who the spell is cast on initially is irrelevant. If you ditch a rogue for a monk and the raid's dps goes down because the gain from rogue to monk+giantkin isn't enough to beat rogue+nuking, what to you has happened? Monk+giantkin is obviously more dps than the rogue, and if monk+giantkin is all monk dps then what has gone wrong? Your position is very silly.

Giantkin isn't enchanter DPS because "the staff says so", giantkin is enchanter dps because it simply, bluntly, and obviously is. It costs as much as a dot, lasts as long as one, and does damage like one. It stops getting cast and thus stops doing damage when the caster gets OOM during the fight. Case closed.

 

[Allielyn]

Eh. In the same vein, Haste is Enc/Shaman DPS, RBoW is Wizard DPS, CotP is Ranger DPS, etc etc.

No. Because you don't have to have an enchanter in your group to have haste for 3 hours of that group, etc. But to use Giantkin you have to have an enchanter in your group or raid then and there for an extended period of time. Giantkin isn't so much a buff as it is, as TM said, a squirrely DoT that you cast through a player instead of on a mob.

 

[Ponden]

Except that the comparison is between monk+giantkin vs rogue+nukes (or rogue+giantkin on someone not as good as the monk that was passed), which the rogue set wins.

It sounds as though you think Giantkin and nukes cannot be used at the same time. (?)

 

[Manguadi]

It sounds as though you think Giantkin and nukes cannot be used at the same time. (?)

I'm confused about this as well, since both recast timers probably compliment each other nicely. However I firmly believe that enchanters nuking is a misuse of mana unless you're farming paw.

No. Because you don't have to have an enchanter in your group to have haste for 3 hours of that group, etc. But to use Giantkin you have to have an enchanter in your group or raid then and there for an extended period of time. Giantkin isn't so much a buff as it is, as TM said, a squirrely DoT that you cast through a player instead of on a mob.

I think these should be counted as DPS for the class that cast them, as Mythryn said, because the additional DPS is not generated by the character, it is generated by the spell. If you balanced all classes based on full raid buffs minus giantkin without counting any beneficial spells they cast, beastlords would be horribly underpowered. Their DPS would be comparable to a monk, they would have an OK slow, and a good tank stance. If you count the DPS bonuses from SV, sav, and cunning, beastlords probably contribute as much dps to a raid as wizards, and probably more damage overall than any other class.

When a monk gets giantkin and does more overall DPS than a rogue, you're dumb if you take the rogue.

I don't parse above rogues when I have giantkin on and they do not.

I think the problem with giantkin is that haste spells are supposed to affect the reuse time on secondary skills, but cannot because of client issues. Giantkin is the ultimate melee DPS buff, and it should affect all melee DPS proportionately as do all other melee buffs. Savagery already exists as the ultimate ATK bonus, so maybe something innovative like adding a point of damage to your weapons or multiplying the bonus damage from strength would work.

 

[Thinkmeats]

I'm getting sick people arguing for the sake of arguing about a minor point that they're not even the right class to understand. Heal over time spells are the caster healing the target exactly as much as giantkin is the enchanter dpsing the mob. I'm not made of time and I'd rather not spend what I do have convincing people of stuff they ought to know anyway, and this is doubly true in a thread where it's a derail. This is the last word on the subject in this thread; if you don't like me ending the discussion while telling you you're wrong, then you're free to go be wrong somewhere else. I really do not see this bizarre need you lot have to argue stuff like this and I certainly don't have to countenance it.

It sounds as though you think Giantkin and nukes cannot be used at the same time. (?)

Nobody anywhere thinks this.

 

[Mythryn]

Nobody anywhere thinks this.

You sure as hell insinuated it with your Rogue+nuke thing, which seems to be the only point in your entire argument. Let's see:

Whether or not that's what Ponden was trying to say, it's still mistaken. Enchanter nuking + rogue > enchanter giantkinning + monk.

You are completely ignoring the fact that an enchanter can Giantkin two monks, and nuke. What about that? Giantkin+monk+nuke > Giantkin+rogue+nuke.

Not to mention, you ignore perfectly logical arguments, or blindly say they are wrong and insult them. That's the way to go I guess.

This is not true. the dps is a product of the combined effort of the one casting giantkin and the one recieving giantkin so the dps is shared between the 2.

To which you insultingly replied:

Incorrect. The dps gain from giantkin is enc. The dps that was there prior to giantkin is that of the character being giantkinned. This is not hard.

Do you not realize that without a DPS class, you have no one to cast Giantkin? It's the same thing as without an Enc, there is no Giantkin to cast. Is that hard to understand?

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing like you seem to think people are doing. I don't agree with the statement that Giantkin is just Enchanter DPS. There is no logical reason for it to not be shared DPS, since it takes two to tango, as opposed to you stating that it's just the Enchanter doing all the work.

Giantkin isn't enchanter DPS because "the staff says so", giantkin is enchanter dps because it simply, bluntly, and obviously is. It costs as much as a dot, lasts as long as one, and does damage like one. It stops getting cast and thus stops doing damage when the caster gets OOM during the fight. Case closed.

So Savagery is Beastlord DPS too right? It stops being cast when the beastlord is dead/OOM. And Pot4/Melody of the Shield etc etc are all Bard stats? They stop being cast when the Bard dies. If you apply an argument to one thing, you may as well start applying it to others.


Regardless, this entire issue would be solved if the haste was just converted into flat ATK. All classes gain the same benefit, and monks/rangers stop being chosen over rogues. Win/Win.

 

[shanoma]

Let's toss a scenario out there to clarify this. Say I'm a ranger, and self-buffed, I parse 80dps. When a shaman throws his stat buffs on me, that raises my dps to 120. When an enchanter throws haste+gog on me, that raises my dps to 200. Is the 200 dps mine? Yes.

However at the same time the 200dps can easily be attributed to the ranger, the shaman is doing 40dps through the ranger, and the enchanter is doing 80dps also through the ranger. For sake of ease, we're going to say that on average, the shaman adds 20dps to all melees and the enchanter averages 20dps for everyone with haste, and an additional 40dps through gog.

We're going to say we have 1 bard, 1 of each tank class, and 1 of each melee/hybrid dps class in the raid. Through them, the shaman is doing 140dps via buffs alone, and the enchanter is doing 140dps+80dps. Add in dots, nukes, and curses, and the shaman+enchanter are doing maybe around 300dps, mainly through other classes. While it is possible that enchanter/shaman could pull off 300dps w/o buffing any other classes, the other classes cannot do their optimum dps without an enchanter or shaman. This is why you count dps gain from buffs towards the classes that cast the buffs, rather than the classes who are wearing the buffs.

It's not all that tough to see this stuff on your own if you just run a parser.

 

[Thinkmeats]

:dumb:

What part of "this is the last word" was confusing? It's not fair but then again neither is life. This thread isn't your personal arena to stick it to the man, Jose. You don't get to shit all over it because you're on some very silly crusade to class Giantkin dps differently. Do it again in this thread and I will throw you out of this forum. I don't really care how you think it looks. You can make another thread if you want, but all I'll do is post a concise restatement of what I've already said and then leave it alone. I do not owe you a full argument until you're satisfied, because doing that takes an indordaintely long amount of time and you have a nasty habit of talking the longest about the most trivial things.

Once again: Take the "who is responsible for giantkin dps" discussion to another thread, preferably in Classes&Gear unless it has a suggestion or a request in it. Don't like it? Tough. Disagreeing with me is not a carte blanche to ignore forum rules.

 

[Allielyn]

TM said the discussion was over, so I won't belabor the point but I'd be happy to debate it in IRC. But back to the topic on hand, I'll quote it again because it was lost in the derail:

The timer on backstab not being affected by giantkin is an interesting result of the client coding, but I'm not convinced its a travesty of justice. Some buffs are better on some classes than others, and I think its more interesting that way. In that respect I see this suggestion along the lines of others where players want all [insert class type here] to have all the same bonuses and same gear and same haste mods and same spell bonuses as other members of [insert same class type here] at the same tier. Other than that argument (which isn't compelling at all), I don't see a compelling reason suggested as to why this should be the case.

IE give me some valid reason that giantkin should be more useful on a rogue than it currently is compared to a monk or ranger other than the curent and only argument I've see of "But we are a dps class too!!!" (which is NOT, of course, a valid reason.)

 

[Thizik]

IE give me some valid reason that giantkin should be more useful on a rogue than it currently is compared to a monk or ranger other than the curent and only argument I've see of "But we are a dps class too!!!" (which is NOT, of course, a valid reason.)

Honestly I don't want to see giantkin become more potent when it is casted on a rogue, because like it has been said countless times in this thread that is not increasing rogue dps just increasing the enchanters dps. And although that would help overall raid dps its just a unnecessary change I believe.

I will say that although rogues are fine with their lack of utility and high sustained dps in the earlier raid game, I have noticed how that dps edge they had over most classes is nearly gone and their lack of utility outside of dps makes them less desirable the further we climb through the tiers. Hopefully the poisons will help remedy the situation but only time will tell.

However this might be slightly off topic so! 8P

 

[Thinkmeats]

However this might be slightly off topic so! 8P

Haha, don't worry about it. The topic can bleed over a bit as long as it's all serving the main point. It's only when something spins out of hand that it needs to get excised.

 

[Manguadi]

IE give me some valid reason that giantkin should be more useful on a rogue than it currently is compared to a monk or ranger other than the curent and only argument I've see of "But we are a dps class too!!!" (which is NOT, of course, a valid reason.)

I believe at least two have already been given.

The OP and Wiz' subsequent responses indicate that this is a client limitation, and that the complaints about its usefulness for rogues are valid. Designing spells around inherent limitations is just bad design. It's sort of like adding another story to a house that doesn't meet building codes.

As I said before, giantkin is the ultimate melee buff. It is really irrelevant whose DPS this is counted as since the real concern is how much DPS it adds. I think the ultimate melee buff belongs on the ultimate melee DPS instead of whichever class gets the most use from it.

Also, something about giants being incredibly fast doesn't make a lot of sense. Giant myth is generally more concerned with a giant stepping on you or falling over nearby than it is with their blinding rate of attacks. Imagine if a giant tried to punch you in the face. Or scale if you're a dragon. To reiterate some of the alternatives:

1) Change it into a +atk buff. I think this is kind of silly and redundant since savagery already exists as the ultimate ATK buff, but it's an option.

2) Have it modify the % damage gained from strength bonuses. Giants are very strong.

3) Have it add some damage bonus to the weapon in the same way that bane damage or elemental damage works on weapons currently. Think of this as the giant hitting you with a weapon followed by a big fist.

4) Some combination of its existing bonuses and these suggestions. I don't know how formulas affect each class, for instance strength may be a far more important stat for rogues than for monks, but I suspect there is a balance such that this buff can provide the same DPS, but be more desirable for the class that suits it best.

 

[Noktar]

I wouldnt go for a simple Giantkin fix since the same problems can be said of all other haste spells since (if ponden is right) all combined haste that gets you over 100% haste doesnt effect abbilities.

Wich means that worn haste and glory is likely already a problem add to it giantkin or any other type of over haste.

And above everything I think that 5% slow destroys your abilities is a far bigger problem.

 

[JDJersey]

And above everything I think that 5% slow destroys your abilities is a far bigger problem.

Yeah, thats my main concern. I mean hey, it'd be cool if they fixed things with giantkin, but this slow thing really cripples our DPS and I'd like to see it looked into and hopefully fixed LONG befor they get to giantkin.