Backstab regarding Haste/Slow

robopirateninja said:
As a beastlord I'd rather be in a group with 3 wizards because I can cast cunning of the beast and do a shitload more dps than if I cast the same buff on three rogues. It's the same idea.
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No, it isn't. Giantkin costs as much as a nuke and is cast about as often as one (in enchanter terms). It's essentially a squirrely DoT more than it is a buff.
 
Thinkmeats said:
No, it isn't. Giantkin costs as much as a nuke and is cast about as often as one (in enchanter terms). It's essentially a squirrely DoT more than it is a buff.
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Right, so using the numbers in the OP, the enchanter can invite a rogue along and the enchanters "DoT" will do 20% x rogue's damage, or the enchanter can invite a monk along and do 40% x monk's damage. The enchanter gets the best DPS (as well as mana/dmg ratio) out of their "DoT" if they invite the monk instead of the rogue. I think that's what Ponden was trying say.

Why on earth would a raid bring a monk or ranger because they "giantkin to the same dps" ? A giantkinned monk is doing the monk's dps PLUS the enchanter's dps
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Because the goal of a group/raid is to maximize the total sum of the DPS. If the groups total DPS is greater with a monk than with a rogue (because the enchanter can contribute more DPS with a monk in the group than a rogue in the group), then taking the monk over the rogue is the way to go.
 
GuiardoTuneweaver said:
Right, so using the numbers in the OP, the enchanter can invite a rogue along and the enchanters "DoT" will do 20% x rogue's damage, or the enchanter can invite a monk along and do 40% x monk's damage. The enchanter gets the best DPS (as well as mana/dmg ratio) out of their "DoT" if they invite the monk instead of the rogue. I think that's what Ponden was trying say.

Because the goal of a group/raid is to maximize the total sum of the DPS. If the groups total DPS is greater with a monk than with a rogue (because the enchanter can contribute more DPS with a monk in the group than a rogue in the group), then taking the monk over the rogue is the way to go.
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Whether or not that's what Ponden was trying to say, it's still mistaken. Enchanter nuking + rogue > enchanter giantkinning + monk.
 
Very interesting thread ; just to backup Ponden : whichever the DPS are acocunted for, the increase of DPS brings all 3 classes on the same rank of efficiency, from what I understand.
Except rogues should logically do more DPS and the ranger/monk has better survivability through FD/mend & out of AE /heals versus Evade and occasional Escape. His requests seem really valid. Arranging Giantkin as an ATK buff would buff all 3 classes equally and rogues would still compensate less survivability by more DPS.
May have got things wrong though, this is no easy discussion :/
 
Dzillon said:
Very interesting thread ; just to backup Ponden : whichever the DPS are acocunted for, the increase of DPS brings all 3 classes on the same rank of efficiency, from what I understand.
Except rogues should logically do more DPS and the ranger/monk has better survivability through FD/mend & out of AE /heals versus Evade and occasional Escape. His requests seem really valid. Arranging Giantkin as an ATK buff would buff all 3 classes equally and rogues would still compensate less survivability by more DPS.
May have got things wrong though, this is no easy discussion :/
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:facepalm:

No. The increase giantkin provides to rangers and monks is not counted as ranger/monk dps. It is enchanter dps. The notion that more monks+rangers improves enchanter efficiency is a mildly salient one, except that enchanters still have nukes, so their modest contribution to dps never goes below a certain amount regardless if they giantkin.

You guys say you understand that giantkin is enc dps but you're certainly not acting like it :psyduck:
 
Thinkmeats said:
Enchanter nuking + rogue > enchanter giantkinning + monk.
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If you math it out, an Enchanter nuking is still more DPS than an Enchanter casting Giantkin on two Draxx clones. Far less mana efficient, but more DPS.

That said, Enchanter mana is still much more useful spent casting Runecloak.
 
Mythryn said:
That said, Enchanter mana is still much more useful spent casting Runecloak.
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well uh..... regardless of what an enchanter will be doing, id still like to see a fix for how backstab handles haste and slow :toot:
 
Ponden said:
well uh..... regardless of what an enchanter will be doing, id still like to see a fix for how backstab handles haste and slow :toot:
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Agreed. The enchanter discussion is only relevant as far as it goes to dispel the silly comparisons of rogue dps to monk+giantkin dps.
 
Ponden said:
well uh..... regardless of what an enchanter will be doing, id still like to see a fix for how backstab handles haste and slow :toot:
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Ponden = immune to slow? yay, that should fix the problem with backstab.
 
Just for some quick info bits.

AFAIK these are the only potential skills that would be affected: (and im not even 100% on these.)
Kick
Slam
Flying Kick +monk special kicks
Bash
Backstab

And AFAIK These are not:
Autoattack
Archery http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=16337.0 <--reference.

I post this only cause this cause I dont think it would change other classes very much. And there might be some misconceptions about them like: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=13381.msg116180#msg116180.

Thanks.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Whether or not that's what Ponden was trying to say, it's still mistaken. Enchanter nuking + rogue > enchanter giantkinning + monk.
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It's worse than that. Rogues geared as well as manguadi can expect to do ~400 dps. Manguadi giantkinned does up to 350. Obviously these numbers vary by encounter, but since both of us have to go through AC, the relative difference will be maintained. I parse tooooooo much.

The only reason you bring a monk along is because you're getting XP and they are good enough to tank what you're doing, you don't already have sufficient CC, or you're on a raid and encounters are designed to be split.
 
The increase giantkin provides to rangers and monks is not counted as ranger/monk dps. It is enchanter dps.
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This is not true. the dps is a product of the combined effort of the one casting giantkin and the one recieving giantkin so the dps is shared between the 2.

And when ponden says its wrong that a buff like giantkin and haste in general effects rogues less then other mellees he is right. though it could also be said that cunning effect wizards more then mages cause mages gain dps from nukes and pets and wizards from just nukes. So except for the slow destroying rogue dps everything could be considered a feature instead of a bug.
 
Alton said:
What about rangers? Do you have a special attack that haste/slow are improperly applied to?
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Did you skim over the part in the 'skills this effects' that listed the skills this effects?

Alton said:
Did you skim over the part in the 'skills this effects' that specifically listed kick already?
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Did you miss the part of evolution where your brain gained the ability to recognize humor? In other words he was making a joke, duh.
 
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