What's up with no mana regen after death/rez?
- Thread starter hooden
- Start date
guyvertoo said:
Part of the problem is in the initial time. Before, you could always TP and get going right away with the travel aspect. Now, you cannot do a damn thing until death effects fade.
I would be totally fine if all npc's were immune to your dmg if you had rez effects or death effects. That way you can at least buff up (what you should be and most people are doing after a wipe) and travel, yet you still prevent zerging. Really, that works or the adept-style re-engagement would both work for me. Anything but the absolute loss of time that the current code creates.
personally I rather have it a server rule that Zerging is illegal and if you get caught you will be put in jail, over freaking having to wait so long for rezz effects to wear off and get mana back. On a serious topic I think they should do is make all the mobs regen to full right away as the adept windhag does to prevent zerging. having to punish the rest of the server because some people dont know how to raid dosent seem right and I think it is a downtime waiting for mana after rez effects, hell perhaps rez effects/df can be shorten if we didn't had anyone Zerging because they will be too busy in jail.
gtoo
THE NEMESIS
Laksha said:
That would require a tremendous ammount of observation and policing. How would you enforce that without having a staff member be present at every raid that takes place on the server. This fix allows the same ammount of enforcment without the rediculous time investment.
Reading over this thread, it seems that there are a lot of people missing the key points. The point of having death effects both when you die and when you get rezzed is simple: if either case didnt result in rez effects, they could be used to effectively cancel each other out. Example: if rezzing didnt result in death effects, then you could just rez characters back to the mob and re-engage. If dying didnt result in death effects, then you could simply bind/teleport by a mob and reengage it upon popping. Simply put, its necessary for both to result in death effects; yes this may suck for the casual exp groups where you die and have to run back to get a rez, but its a necessary consequence of solving larger issues (its what, 4 extra minutes anyways?).
Why dont we make it so casters can med up but not cast while they have death fatigue?
The same reason they have death fatigue in the first place: so they cant re-engage the mob. Wiz already said that
Why dont we give mobs massive regeneration instead?
As Xeldan said, this only accounts for full wipes; I'm sure that partial wipes are targeted by this change as well. If this change were considered as an alternative, raids would be able to lose most of their members to death, rez and med up (maybe with supermed?) and be ready to re-engage while a handful of members keep the mob busy: something that seems to be frowned upon. Simply put: this wouldnt solve the issue as a whole.
Why dont we ban offenders?
As previously said, this would require a lot of work on behalf of the staff: this alone warrants throwing it out as a possibility. However, in addition to that, its another opportunity for subjective rulings on behalf of the staff, which we all know can lead to drama and bad news in general. Example: guild A does something fishy that isnt allowed, but isnt caught. Guild B does something very similar and gets a few members banned. Guild B then throws a fit on the forums accusing GM conspiracies and all that. Handling cases on a case by case basis is tedious and problematic, especially when discretion and gray areas are present. Overall there are many reasons why this wouldnt work.
Hope that helps to clear some things up
Regards,
Aeran
Why dont we make it so casters can med up but not cast while they have death fatigue?
The same reason they have death fatigue in the first place: so they cant re-engage the mob. Wiz already said that
so all this would do is allow casters to be FM (or close) by the time they lose death effects, allowing them to re-engage with full potential after medding up. The current system simply lengthens this period that the melee's have to keep a mob choked, therefore reducing the chances that they will be able to. Simply put, this change would negate the point of death fatigue for casters: newly dead/rezzed casters would have to sit to regen mana anyways, so they wouldnt be doing anything different than if they had death effects. Of course, some casters may med up, cast, med up, cast as opposed to medding to full then engaging, but the fact remains that allowing mana regeneration during the death fatigue period isnt a good idea.Wiz said:
Why dont we give mobs massive regeneration instead?
As Xeldan said, this only accounts for full wipes; I'm sure that partial wipes are targeted by this change as well. If this change were considered as an alternative, raids would be able to lose most of their members to death, rez and med up (maybe with supermed?) and be ready to re-engage while a handful of members keep the mob busy: something that seems to be frowned upon. Simply put: this wouldnt solve the issue as a whole.
Why dont we ban offenders?
As previously said, this would require a lot of work on behalf of the staff: this alone warrants throwing it out as a possibility. However, in addition to that, its another opportunity for subjective rulings on behalf of the staff, which we all know can lead to drama and bad news in general. Example: guild A does something fishy that isnt allowed, but isnt caught. Guild B does something very similar and gets a few members banned. Guild B then throws a fit on the forums accusing GM conspiracies and all that. Handling cases on a case by case basis is tedious and problematic, especially when discretion and gray areas are present. Overall there are many reasons why this wouldnt work.
Hope that helps to clear some things up
Regards,
Aeran
Zaos
Dalayan Adventurer
Im afraid I have to humbly disagree with all three of your points.
- Death effects CAN be made to remain upon rez.[/list:u]
- As has been stated above "keeping raid mobs busy" isn't truely even an option and regen would solve the problem.[/list:u]
- Briefly observing raids a few times a night a few times a week wouldnt require much time at all and, furthermore, the fear of being banned would undoubtedly work its own work.[/list:u]
On a side note I do agree that this isn't a terrible, unbearable problem but I do feel its unnecessary so I exercise my right to say so in hopes of reconsideration. In the end I know that this is in Wiz's capable hands and he isn't going to implement something thats rediculous.
- Briefly observing raids a few times a night a few times a week wouldnt require much time at all and, furthermore, the fear of being banned would undoubtedly work its own work.[/list:u]
- As has been stated above "keeping raid mobs busy" isn't truely even an option and regen would solve the problem.[/list:u]
guyvertoo said:
And once one person is caught, out of all 5 or so guilds, I couldn't help but think that would be precendent enough for the rest of the guildies to say to themselves "Hey, screw this idea... Im not gonna be a part of this and lose all my time I put into this character."
But even still, I think the other 2 alternatives I brought up were better ideas. :sadf:
serpent1202
Dalayan Beginner
Just an idea but after reading all those posts it might work, and hopefully its simple to code.
When you have rez effects currently you have no mana, so there is no casting, period. So you are getting double downtime once you port back and rez. Why not let your mana regen just like you are in trance and out of combat, but create limitations to casting. I heard someone mention death effects that have silence included. I think this would be the easiest to code, but that still gives you 2 rez effects for the duration.
My idea would be to not reset the rez effects timer. This would make it so that groups would no longer be at a disadvantage. If only 1 or 2 members die the whole group has to wait for those 2 members to go through 2 rez effects. The same applies to raid groups. If a few key members die on a raid this will also speed up that process. While @ the same time if an entire raid wipes, then yes you are going to have to wait that extra 4 mins. In theory you could just camp a cleric everywhere you went, but people do that now anyways, they just wait to camp till they sense the wipe.
Its just an idea but let me know what you think.
When you have rez effects currently you have no mana, so there is no casting, period. So you are getting double downtime once you port back and rez. Why not let your mana regen just like you are in trance and out of combat, but create limitations to casting. I heard someone mention death effects that have silence included. I think this would be the easiest to code, but that still gives you 2 rez effects for the duration.
My idea would be to not reset the rez effects timer. This would make it so that groups would no longer be at a disadvantage. If only 1 or 2 members die the whole group has to wait for those 2 members to go through 2 rez effects. The same applies to raid groups. If a few key members die on a raid this will also speed up that process. While @ the same time if an entire raid wipes, then yes you are going to have to wait that extra 4 mins. In theory you could just camp a cleric everywhere you went, but people do that now anyways, they just wait to camp till they sense the wipe.
Its just an idea but let me know what you think.
gtoo
THE NEMESIS
It really isnt an issue because rez effects only last four minutes. After these four minutes, it takes LESS than five minutes (a really high estimate) to meditate back to full mana. Nine minutes total is a perfectly acceptable penalty for dieing. I am willing to bet, and I wish I could prove, but I can't, that nine minutes from rez to full mana is faster than it was with the old rez effects/meditation formula.
While I was initially against this new implemented idea and believed that it caused "a double penalty" for casters, I have since changed my mind as of late (after soloing more and dying more often ) . While I can't speak of the raid game, in the solo/casual group situation, the new DF penalty seems quite fitting. Ussually after I'm dead I'll spend the first 5 minutes or so getting my mana up and spending time buffing up. If DF worked how many people seem to want it to work (i.e. having the caster be silenced or unable to cast any damage spells on NPCs) such an effect would simply sit and med and wait for DF to wear off and have a full bar at the end of it.
Since the duration of DF is not that much longer then the time it takes for me to get FM and get fully buffed having a system where your bar continue to fill during DF would have no actualy penalty since its time that would be spent sitting and medding anyway. The only way I could see such a system working is if the length of DF was greatly increased (say three times the amount), that way the time you are incable of attacking the mob far exceeds the realistic time it would take you to med and buff back up anyway. This however would be problematic as it would make the time you are vulnerable while soloing unbearable.
In my view the bottom line comes down to that while DFed you should be in all sense useless. In the same way a melee class is useless to his group and themself when DF (can't attack or defend themselves) a caster should be useless to his group and themself (unable to cast or med.) Being allowed to med and cast beneficial buffs allows the caster to use the time they are DF to be usefull to themselves and their group and as such trivializes the penatly for dying.
) . While I can't speak of the raid game, in the solo/casual group situation, the new DF penalty seems quite fitting. Ussually after I'm dead I'll spend the first 5 minutes or so getting my mana up and spending time buffing up. If DF worked how many people seem to want it to work (i.e. having the caster be silenced or unable to cast any damage spells on NPCs) such an effect would simply sit and med and wait for DF to wear off and have a full bar at the end of it. Since the duration of DF is not that much longer then the time it takes for me to get FM and get fully buffed having a system where your bar continue to fill during DF would have no actualy penalty since its time that would be spent sitting and medding anyway. The only way I could see such a system working is if the length of DF was greatly increased (say three times the amount), that way the time you are incable of attacking the mob far exceeds the realistic time it would take you to med and buff back up anyway. This however would be problematic as it would make the time you are vulnerable while soloing unbearable.
In my view the bottom line comes down to that while DFed you should be in all sense useless. In the same way a melee class is useless to his group and themself when DF (can't attack or defend themselves) a caster should be useless to his group and themself (unable to cast or med.) Being allowed to med and cast beneficial buffs allows the caster to use the time they are DF to be usefull to themselves and their group and as such trivializes the penatly for dying.
Sigurd said:While I was initially against this new implemented idea and believed that it caused "a double penalty" for casters, I have since changed my mind as of late (after soloing more and dying more often
Since the duration of DF is not that much longer then the time it takes for me to get FM and get fully buffed having a system where your bar continue to fill during DF would have no actualy penalty since its time that would be spent sitting and medding anyway.
But this change wasn't put into place to make death have a greater penalty. This change was put in place to keep bind zerging from happening. The current system of DF does that, and it still would if characters regained mana while silenced.
Theres no reason you can say that 9 minutes of being disabled does NOT allow bind zerging but 5 minutes DOES. If the focus is partial wipes, then theres no omnipotent force that says "the remaining part of the raid can keep a raid target occupied for 5 minutes, but couldn't for 9".
Currently at 1 minute after death, both a warrior & a wizard are useless.
at 2 minutes, both are useless.
at 3 minutes, both are useless.
at 4 minutes, both are useless.
at 5 minutes, the warrior is at full power, but the wizard is still useless.
at 6 minutes, the warrior is at full power, and the wizard has 25m.
at 7 minutes, the warrior is at full power, and the wizard has 50m.
at 8 minutes, the warrior is at full power, and the wizard has 75m.
at 9 minutes, the warrior is at full power, and the wizard is at full power.
Thats the problem.
-Aauby-
Yami
Staff Emeritus
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http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8383
Pretty much takes care of all the above and still gets the job done.