Vengance proc on Pally Thaz BP...

S

Snake

Dalayan Elder
Is it possible to just remove this proc please?

Whats wrong with it?
1. It lasts ]0-6[ seconds, often only on so fast you dont even see it, so its kinda pointless to begin with, and waste of already much needed buff slot space.

2. It overwrites usefull buffs. The Vah +ATK clicker and SV are overwritten by this buff, only two i have noticed so far.

So all in all, total crap buff, that is only annoying, please remove it.
 
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I think what he is trying to say is the fact that this thing takes a buffslot at any point it wants is so bad that the item as a whole is hurt by it.

I somewhat agree, having a short durtion attack buff appear on my buff bar is basically reason to not combine the bp.
 
Tbh, Vengeance in itself is a pretty awesome buff (I think like 500 ATK for one tick), the problem is, that it lasts for one tick.
Considering server-lag and the mechanics behind ticks you technically won't benefit from this at all since it can go off anytime you're hit so you have a max of 6 seconds to get this advantage - with lag this prob boils down to an absolute max of 3-4 effective and usable seconds (guesstimate).

A while ago Gono brought this up and suggested that the + ATK was cut in half and it's duration extended to 2 (3?) ticks to compensate this a bit - I have no idea how staff sees this issue but I personally (even tho' I don't put this particular item to use) would like to see such a change - other items were blotched with useless or broken effects as well (Hi Necro robe) - changing this to something different or adjust time and mod would probably let you benefit instead of just having something that wastes buffslots and overwrites other buffs.
 
Xeldan said:
Very constructive feedback, thanks.
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I first thought he was being sarcasting, but then i read my post thrue a few times, and it really is constructive feedback, so i think he is serious, and have high hopes that the buff will be removed :)
 
Snake said:
I first thought he was being sarcasting, but then i read my post thrue a few times, and it really is constructive feedback, so i think he is serious, and have high hopes that the buff will be removed :)
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I think hes calling your thread sloppy and plain rude to the development team.

I have high hopes that if you intend to create an S&R thread in the future you take the time to formulate a well presented and polite suggestion.

If you expect dev's to spend their time changing an item for you, you need to take all of five minutes and make your post presentable.

Snake said:
:)
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That being said, ya the buff is pretty bad and I too remember this issue coming up through Gonobn a while ago. It could probably use some tweaking.
 
Manluas said:
Considering server-lag and the mechanics behind ticks you technically won't benefit from this at all since it can go off anytime you're hit so you have a max of 6 seconds to get this advantage - with lag this prob boils down to an absolute max of 3-4 effective and usable seconds (guesstimate).
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I think it works as follows:
There is a counter on the server that counts 6 seconds and then resets, and starts over. When it does this, it removes a counter from all buffs dots or what ever, and if a buff / dot / what ever is 0, it removes this.
Now Vengance starts with 1 counter, and is thus removed after ]0-6[ seconds (meaning everthing from 0 to 6 but not 0 or 6).
So it has noting to do with lag, only lack of alternatives of making a buff last exactly 6 seconds.
 
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Cinn said:
If you expect dev's to spend their time changing an item for you, you need to take all of five minutes and make your post presentable.
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Or at least be polite, i guess...

But my point really was, that this effect is a curse, and in no way any good, and i hoped they would just remove it.
I can see how it could be presumed that i was ungreatfull for a free and alround totaly awesome game. Im not, just frustrated with a bad effect on my BP *cry*
 
Snake said:
I think it works as follows:
There is a counter on the server that counts 6 seconds and then resets, and starts over. When it does this, it removes a counter from all buffs dots or what ever, and if a buff / dot / what ever is 0, it removes this.
Now Vengance starts with 1 counter, and is thus removed after ]0-6[ seconds (meaning everthing from 0 to 6 but not 0 or 6).
So it has noting to do with lag, only lack of alternatives of making a buff last exactly 6 seconds.
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It actually has something to do with server lag or at least that's what I've been told and what I've read in the past.

If the effect is triggered and at the same time the server lags the effect will kick in delayed (the delay being equal to the timespan of lag) which will effectively shorten the duration of the buff and thus cripple the entire effect since there's usually always some serverlag (esp. when fighting mobs).
 
personally ive had this bp for quite some time now and i have never seen any benefit from the proc, ever. it just kills a buff slot i may be saving for a debuff and then the bp procs and i get hit by a dot/debuff of some sort, making it overwrite a much needed buff. also i monitor my melee hits quite carefully and i have never actually witnessed a benefit from having this buff. its nice and pretty with a cool name, but otherwise useless.

my 2cps

perhaps could be switched for worn atk buff? +15 or something
 
Well when im tanking (aka taking hits, making the proc happen), i often cast spells alot, and thus don't melee much.

So really there are other ways to improve the damage out put.
1. A worn +ATK effect as Vart suggests.
2. Some kind of DD proc, please dont add DoT procs, as it would kill the BP pretty much (I for one often hold mobs till mezzed on raids).
3. Aggro proc, so we can melee more with out thinking about keeping aggro.

But if non of this is gonna happen, i will be very happy to just see the effect removed, would be a huge upgrade for this BP.
 
Snake said:
3. Aggro proc, so we can melee more with out thinking about keeping aggro.
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Palaggro is stupid easy so this would pretty much be a direct facepunch to SK's. Also your average Thaz BP has some nifty and unique proc or effect, I think something more colorful is in order here. There are quite some possibilities and some good have been mentioned but a direct +aggro proc is a bit....pale and somewhat out of place.

Would it be possible to just change the existing effect to something more useful (longer duration, maybe +ATK adjust) - I personally like the idea and the flavour of it.
 
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While i do not have one, i agree the proc is damn near worthless, especially when compared to its peers the SK and War BPs

Suggestions:

1. Turn Vengeance into worn atk + regen/ft or something similar.
2. Increase the duration, as 1 tic is really not enough to get much of an effectt.
3. Remove Vengeance, add a proc "Vengeance of the Crusader" a 600pt base DD, magic based that doubles if cast on undead (if possible). These are just random numbers and can be adjusted as necessary.

I know these ideas have been stated already, I'm just expanding on them.
 
It disappearing before a 'tick' is likely working as it should. Let me explain its design for you-

Vengeance: Increases the Paladin's Attack by 500 for their next melee attack (i.e. about a 50% bonus to an attack).

The problem, as you pointed out, is that the stacking system built into the client is preventing the intended design of this buff from being useful.

I'm not against it being changed to Daelius' suggestion, though the feasibility of it doing double to undead would have to be investigated.
 
Xeldan said:
It disappearing before a 'tick' is likely working as it should. Let me explain its design for you-

Vengeance: Increases the Paladin's Attack by 500 for their next melee attack (i.e. about a 50% bonus to an attack).

The problem, as you pointed out, is that the stacking system built into the client is preventing the intended design of this buff from being useful.

I'm not against it being changed to Daelius' suggestion, though the feasibility of it doing double to undead would have to be investigated.
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Maybe instead of increase vs. undead give it a random base (600 for example as Daelius said) and give it an increase vs. paladins nemesis deity (I know there are AA's that increase damage against said deity(s)).
 
Here's an example of a SOLID tanking BP system that could be implemented for paladins:

http://www.angrygamer.net/sodwiki/index.php?title=Runed_Timeworn_Chestplate

Good BP with an amazing proc. I'm not 100% sure whether it works the same on SOD as it did on Live, but on Live enchanter pbae stuns would generate agro regardless of whether the target is stun immune or not (read: undead). So having a proc like that is win/win since it generates agro, but can also stun against stunnable mobs.

I'm sure something along those lines can be worked out so that it doesn't make the BP completely overpowered, but at the same time makes it very desirable -- which it should be.
 
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