The SoD economy
- Thread starter Danku
- Start date
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
guyvertoo said:
if thats all that got changed with gems, then nm. in all honesty, ive never payed a lot of attention to gem stuff. my moneymaking duo was always way, way better at popping nameds than doing any meaningful gem farm. can anyone who does more gem farmin' comment on this?
I'll just put in my 2 cents here, but back when I had hit 65 I started farming for a Charm of Tarhyl. I two-boxed a cleric and my monk, and pulled out about 2K for about 2 hours of farming. Cyclopean warriors would drop upwards of 20pp each, along with gems, giant clubs, and cyclops toes. Elders dropped a lesser amount, but they still dropped a dencent amount of cash for those able to kill them.
After I got my charm, I never returned to that place until lately. I started farming for out Main tank's Juggo charm, and found that the money drops have been nerfed. The warriors drop an average of 5-10pp with little to no gem drops. They drop cyclops toes, which sell for about 2pp each. Giant clubs now sell for 1pp instead of 7pp, and are much less common.
The island giants have also been nerfed to oblivion, which makes them even being there completely useless. I would usually get 50pp off of each of them and end up getting over 100pp easy per wave of giants, plus rare gem drops. Diamonds, black sapphires, fire emeralds. Now, they drop about 5pp each, and drop stupid gems like malachite and lapis lazuli. I remember when fire emeralds used to sell to vendors for 75pp, and now they sell for around 30pp. Not to mention players don't buy gems, and if they do, it will be "WTB one diamond, pst."
I think the point of the original post was to have the raw cash drops looked at. The economy is saturated with items because everyone is level 65, but the raw cash drops and gem vendor prices need to be looked at. If there is no active money exchange in an economy, then the economy stagnates. With people saving every platinum they have in order to buy higher-end things that people are selling for high prices (because the platinum drop is nonexistant and they need money), there is no active cashflow between people.
After I got my charm, I never returned to that place until lately. I started farming for out Main tank's Juggo charm, and found that the money drops have been nerfed. The warriors drop an average of 5-10pp with little to no gem drops. They drop cyclops toes, which sell for about 2pp each. Giant clubs now sell for 1pp instead of 7pp, and are much less common.
The island giants have also been nerfed to oblivion, which makes them even being there completely useless. I would usually get 50pp off of each of them and end up getting over 100pp easy per wave of giants, plus rare gem drops. Diamonds, black sapphires, fire emeralds. Now, they drop about 5pp each, and drop stupid gems like malachite and lapis lazuli. I remember when fire emeralds used to sell to vendors for 75pp, and now they sell for around 30pp. Not to mention players don't buy gems, and if they do, it will be "WTB one diamond, pst."
I think the point of the original post was to have the raw cash drops looked at. The economy is saturated with items because everyone is level 65, but the raw cash drops and gem vendor prices need to be looked at. If there is no active money exchange in an economy, then the economy stagnates. With people saving every platinum they have in order to buy higher-end things that people are selling for high prices (because the platinum drop is nonexistant and they need money), there is no active cashflow between people.
N
neodiahs
Guest
in terms of item vendor values i have seen some items that need a look at cause they make no sense.
for one the ratfur shoes off lord syktari in mistwoods. they sell for 1gold 7 silver which is very odd seeing how normal leather boots probably sell for about the same if not more and the ratfur shoes are decent with 20 hp and mana as welll as disease saves. meanwhile his ratfur cloak vendors for above 10p if i recall correctly.
there are likely many other items like these who either need their sell prices raised and the items that drop in heartlands like the damage reduction 3 gauntlets and grotesque eleven band need a price altogether since the vendor wont even buy them.
for one the ratfur shoes off lord syktari in mistwoods. they sell for 1gold 7 silver which is very odd seeing how normal leather boots probably sell for about the same if not more and the ratfur shoes are decent with 20 hp and mana as welll as disease saves. meanwhile his ratfur cloak vendors for above 10p if i recall correctly.
there are likely many other items like these who either need their sell prices raised and the items that drop in heartlands like the damage reduction 3 gauntlets and grotesque eleven band need a price altogether since the vendor wont even buy them.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Thinkmeats said:
Well as far as I've seen having been quite a gem farmer in my day at least insofar as my experience in gorge goes, they've been switched to a lower table. Obviously. In approximately 8+ hours per day of killing pretty much everything in the zone -1 mob and keeping it clear I would get approximately the following:
1-2 black sapphires
2-5 rare crystal dust
1 map on average (generally of the ve variety)
miscellaneous gemmage 10-20 star ruby=>regular ruby variety
Seemingly random amounts of the slightly uncommon gems, opals, emeralds, etc
many many many stacks of giant blood
many man many stacks of toes and eyes (eyes and toes used to be almost on par with each other for droprate)
Generally I'd pull around 3 runs, leave when I hit 1.5k in straight up plat, saleables used to just about double it (although I had it to the point that pretty much everything was being sent directly to players). Of course while one might consider that excessive remember that was a hell of alot of mind numbing work.
In my latest jaunt it really didnt even come close to compare, about 5 hours 1.5k after sales (= about 150ish on a bot since I was questing). That was after selling items. The actual gem drops were absolutely pitiful. Saddening to me because I used to use bagspace as an indication of when to head back to town
6 topaz
33 toes
24 eyes
1 star ruby
1 ruby
1 sapphire
2 stacks of giant blood
This is of course with one-eye down, so add the side ones to the rotation, brings the plat total up a bit from a normal run. Also during the entire run there was not one quakemaster spawn, usually he would net around 30-48pp + gems and whichever item. There also were no maps. On a common rotation consider around 9 elders (if I'm remembering right, kind of hectic here right now, calls and such) as being the larger moneymakers. I'd also like to point out they were dropping "crap" gems far too often (malachite, star rose quartz, onyx) though an exact number is impossible as I just toss them as they take up valuable space for ridiculously low reward.
As for the other giants, which I've done before but not much simply because they bore the hell out of me, they have also taken a huge hit. Hillgiants used to be a fairly reliable source of low income, now totally worthless, a few plat from each. Highest drop I've seen (and I've been killing them quite often on imeriaz for xp in the past few weeks) was 7 and change 1 club, no gems. Ice giants are actually better from my experience killing them on the way to everchill. Island giants I have not bothered to do as I've heard reports of drops of 3pp no gems 12pp no gems and 17pp no gems respectively, making them not worth the time to port over really, considering their difficulty (at least for mages, snare classes have a far easier time of it.)
As for the doubled drop, idk I really didn't start farming until that had already apparently been implemented. But seeing my recent droprate, I'd say their loottable in general just got taken down.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
1.5k x2 or w/e doesnt seem that unreasonable, but its possible im just spoiled. high end named popping makes absolutely retarded amounts of money.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
So, we seem to have established there was a cut in named spawn rates, gem drop rates, drop tables, plat drops, spawn rates of cash critters, cutting in gem prices at NPCs, questions over some NPC pricing of items (example 10p items and 1g items from same mobs), and maybe more.
If each nerf reduced available plat by 1/2 (pulling numbers out of my ass as an example is all, these are NOT the real changes)...then we have had a reduction from X available plat to X/64 (1/2 for spawn rates, 1/2 for gem drop rates, 1/2 for lowering drop tables, 1/2 for plat drops, 1/2 for spawn rates, 1/2 for cut in gem prices... 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/64th of the previous available loot. The effect of so many changes all at once was exponential.
The example above is to illustrate the effect of lessening more than one factor at a time. With so many variables changed at the same time, I think that the tightening of the plat was more effective than was intended is all. AGAIN I DO NOT CLAIM THAT THE EXAMPLE IS THE REALITY. I do not know the actual effect that was had, but I do know that merely looking at the overall quantity of plat in the game is not an effective measure of the economy.
I would suggest further, on top of my previous suggestion several posts back, that the more "rare" gems be brought back to the loot tables and made available to people again. Link the quality of gems to the level of the mobs perhaps? A level 20 something mob shouldnt have access to a diamond, but maybe a peridot rarely. A level 30'ish mob may have access to a bit better of a gem, like Emeralds or maybe Opals. Get into the 40's and start seeing Fire Opals and Star Rubies. You see how I am going here.
I would also like to suggest that either spawn rates OR plat drops of some of the more famous plat mobs be examined (Giants for example).
Another suggestion would be that coin drops of mobs be linked to their level directly and then modifided by the difficulty of the mob. Were this to be implemented it could solve the problem with specific mobs being considered "farmable". This would fix the kill the giants problem.
Mainly, I am concerned that these changes be implemented from level 10 up. We need a living economy for all, not just raiders. Not just those who are "in the know". You should not have to choose between stagnating your leveling and bringing in some plat so you can get some upgrades that you probably would have been able to get soon enough if you had leveled.
Again, I thank everyone for the very constructive input that they have put into this. Wiz and Staff, I thank you for listening and taking the concerns of the players seriously and opening yourselves to the idea that there may be inequities at this time. SoD is nearly perfect in my eyes, I just want everyone to see what I see when I look at thsi game.
If each nerf reduced available plat by 1/2 (pulling numbers out of my ass as an example is all, these are NOT the real changes)...then we have had a reduction from X available plat to X/64 (1/2 for spawn rates, 1/2 for gem drop rates, 1/2 for lowering drop tables, 1/2 for plat drops, 1/2 for spawn rates, 1/2 for cut in gem prices... 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/64th of the previous available loot. The effect of so many changes all at once was exponential.
The example above is to illustrate the effect of lessening more than one factor at a time. With so many variables changed at the same time, I think that the tightening of the plat was more effective than was intended is all. AGAIN I DO NOT CLAIM THAT THE EXAMPLE IS THE REALITY. I do not know the actual effect that was had, but I do know that merely looking at the overall quantity of plat in the game is not an effective measure of the economy.
I would suggest further, on top of my previous suggestion several posts back, that the more "rare" gems be brought back to the loot tables and made available to people again. Link the quality of gems to the level of the mobs perhaps? A level 20 something mob shouldnt have access to a diamond, but maybe a peridot rarely. A level 30'ish mob may have access to a bit better of a gem, like Emeralds or maybe Opals. Get into the 40's and start seeing Fire Opals and Star Rubies. You see how I am going here.
I would also like to suggest that either spawn rates OR plat drops of some of the more famous plat mobs be examined (Giants for example).
Another suggestion would be that coin drops of mobs be linked to their level directly and then modifided by the difficulty of the mob. Were this to be implemented it could solve the problem with specific mobs being considered "farmable". This would fix the kill the giants problem.
Mainly, I am concerned that these changes be implemented from level 10 up. We need a living economy for all, not just raiders. Not just those who are "in the know". You should not have to choose between stagnating your leveling and bringing in some plat so you can get some upgrades that you probably would have been able to get soon enough if you had leveled.
Again, I thank everyone for the very constructive input that they have put into this. Wiz and Staff, I thank you for listening and taking the concerns of the players seriously and opening yourselves to the idea that there may be inequities at this time. SoD is nearly perfect in my eyes, I just want everyone to see what I see when I look at thsi game.
thinkmeats thats the problem you ask anyone what sort of farming now adays is the best and if they come from a upper area raiding guild its items seeing as these cant really be nerfed relyably but the cash floow come into the system has droped the items them selfs will start becomeing less and less valuable becuase of how little cash people have anymore or are willing to spend. the low men on the totem pole have no way of farming items by 2 boxing 2 raid geared people the duo the basement of hhk or nobles of hhk or any sort of luck in fr or plaguefang thats rediculous even a group of people greared off of edhk gear probobly not beable to handle basement of hhk wear items that drop sell for alot. what is rediculous is the people that have been playing here befor the cash nerfs got a 10 times easyer way of farming for cash now have there 200k charms and they are the only people to have them or the total of 2 1.2mil charms on the server i think? i am of course ignoring the fact that guilds save up as much cash as they can for main tank charms becuase those are a help and take the guild further then say 1 200k healer charm would charms shouldnt be a far fetched dream(36k) yes they are a nice item but if i spend 8 hours a day for a month farming cycgorge(curently only place to still have any sort of cash drop soloable) i still wouldnt have 36k for a charm becuase clearing all of cycs gorge (which otherpeople from lower gears cant do) i still only make about 500pp and thats if im lucky.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
1.5k is gimp for like 5-7 hours farming tbh. In an hhk group for around...hrm I'd say 4ish hours? We made approximately 8.5ishk with items and all accounted, and we were moving pretty slow due to me eating, draxx ordering pizza, me and bubby smoke breaks etc.. Keep in mind my numbers were also post sales, also I'd like to point out nerfing the gems there completely screws anyone wanting to or planning to work on jewelcrafting.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Danku said:
is that sarcasm? theres no way all that shit got changed.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
No it isnt sarcasm. I go item hunt sometimes for money, we will use Paw as an example. Named spawn rates were cut down. It is so obvious that it is painful.
Gem drop rates were dropped, established in this thread by vistachiri and I spent some time in Cyc Gorge to test it. 2 laps around Old One Eye and not a single gem bigger than a topaz.
Drop tables, specifically for gems, had to have been lowered. Again, refer to Cyc Gorge drop rate change or look at the chess table in GSM. Killed the chess tables 4 times (8 kills), best thing was 24p and a cyclops eye. Average was more like 10p per kill on a long timer.
Plat drops were nerfed, example any and all giants and cyclops.
Spawn rates of cash critters, example giants and cyclops. Another note here is that there seems to be a longer spawn time for named/PH cycle than for other mobs nearby.
Cutting of gem prices, NPC purchase amount dropped as per people in this thread.
Questions in pricing of some items from same mob. Example, Lord Skytari. Boots 1 gold or so, cloak someone had said 10p but iirc it was more like 40p last I saw. (in reference to NPC merchant payments)
Every single cash/item camp that I know of has been nerfed. It seems the only ones who still have access to plat/items from hunting are the raiders. Not everyone is in Ruin, Exodus, or similar strong guilds. I run a small guild and I spend the majority of my time trying to help my guildies out. Often it means camping cash/items because they cannot afford a new spell or a much needed upgrade.
I have not been sarcastic a single time in this thread. Sarcasm will not achieve improvements and I will not waste my time or anyone else's. I want this game to be the most fun it can be for everyone from level 1 till the end-game. I do not think constant struggle in this degree of magnitude merits fun for alot of people.
Gem drop rates were dropped, established in this thread by vistachiri and I spent some time in Cyc Gorge to test it. 2 laps around Old One Eye and not a single gem bigger than a topaz.
Drop tables, specifically for gems, had to have been lowered. Again, refer to Cyc Gorge drop rate change or look at the chess table in GSM. Killed the chess tables 4 times (8 kills), best thing was 24p and a cyclops eye. Average was more like 10p per kill on a long timer.
Plat drops were nerfed, example any and all giants and cyclops.
Spawn rates of cash critters, example giants and cyclops. Another note here is that there seems to be a longer spawn time for named/PH cycle than for other mobs nearby.
Cutting of gem prices, NPC purchase amount dropped as per people in this thread.
Questions in pricing of some items from same mob. Example, Lord Skytari. Boots 1 gold or so, cloak someone had said 10p but iirc it was more like 40p last I saw. (in reference to NPC merchant payments)
Every single cash/item camp that I know of has been nerfed. It seems the only ones who still have access to plat/items from hunting are the raiders. Not everyone is in Ruin, Exodus, or similar strong guilds. I run a small guild and I spend the majority of my time trying to help my guildies out. Often it means camping cash/items because they cannot afford a new spell or a much needed upgrade.
I have not been sarcastic a single time in this thread. Sarcasm will not achieve improvements and I will not waste my time or anyone else's. I want this game to be the most fun it can be for everyone from level 1 till the end-game. I do not think constant struggle in this degree of magnitude merits fun for alot of people.
So I will go on my little comment there.
I have never known of "real" good plat farming places so I wont discuss the matter.
On the other hand, I have been playing on the server for now 6 monthes. Due to the fact that I have whacky schedules, and that I have always wanted to do the adepts ( and thus didn't hesitate to explock), I levelled very slowly.
This gave me time to have a good overlook at the items that I could buy. And what I saw is that the prices completely fell down, because the market is saturated, and people absolutely want to sell their items to a small market.
For example, a bloody cloak of the offering was a complete dream when i started playing ( start of november), as it was closer to 2000pp. In december, when I played for 2 weeks, it was down in the 1200-1500 range. I bought mine 3 weeks ago, 800pp. And this price isn't uncommon anymore.
Another example is the warpmetal armor that was going for 400pp a small piece in december. I bought several at 100 two weeks ago.
And the same goes for many many pieces I bought. I can find some high qual augs for 80pps when i take the time to review all the /listsold.
While this is rather interesting for me, since I can gear up easily by just farming a bit of Shrouded Island/Giants, I don't feel well about this. It looks like the economy is kind of... Crumbling down.
What will happen when even the "high" end loot will drop down in price? The staff doesn't cough up new zones every day, so new loot doesn't jump out of the pocket...
And how will I get cash when I will get in my 60ies? At that time, even the higher lvl items will sell for crap.
To me, the actual lack of cash inc on the market actually reinforces mudflation, as nearly any guy that farms a bit of cash will be able to gear over his level soon. And that because of both the market being flooded with goods, and the cash inc being so small that people save money instead of spending it.
If the staff cares about mudflation, they should have a look into this. And please, not by nerfing the (small) cash farms availables at our levels. For exemple, I make around 70pps an hour in Shrouded Island and 50 at the giants, just for mind nubbing kills ( and I also let the place to the guys that exp there if they happen to ask), looting everything that sells over 1pp, gating back to vendor and running back. that's a lot of work, for not that much considering the efforts I was putting on live to have way more. So it's not the income that is wrong, it's the market price. And if the market price is too low, that means people don't get cash out of their sells, wich means they will hoard more, buy less, down the prices to undercut the neighbour, and here's the loop.
I have the feeling it can be adressed by making the lore items bind on equip go live ( but this is another thread) to reduce items on market, and also by upping the cash incomes. While they may have been ridiculously high in the past, having it too low will hurt the economy as well. There has to be a middle point to be found there.
But it has to be quick, or low level chars equipent will soon be ridiculous. With higher lvl equipment being limited to Deepmetal/shadowsilk etc for people that don't raid, many will feel left out in the gap. I had the feeling this was not really intended.
I have never known of "real" good plat farming places so I wont discuss the matter.
On the other hand, I have been playing on the server for now 6 monthes. Due to the fact that I have whacky schedules, and that I have always wanted to do the adepts ( and thus didn't hesitate to explock), I levelled very slowly.
This gave me time to have a good overlook at the items that I could buy. And what I saw is that the prices completely fell down, because the market is saturated, and people absolutely want to sell their items to a small market.
For example, a bloody cloak of the offering was a complete dream when i started playing ( start of november), as it was closer to 2000pp. In december, when I played for 2 weeks, it was down in the 1200-1500 range. I bought mine 3 weeks ago, 800pp. And this price isn't uncommon anymore.
Another example is the warpmetal armor that was going for 400pp a small piece in december. I bought several at 100 two weeks ago.
And the same goes for many many pieces I bought. I can find some high qual augs for 80pps when i take the time to review all the /listsold.
While this is rather interesting for me, since I can gear up easily by just farming a bit of Shrouded Island/Giants, I don't feel well about this. It looks like the economy is kind of... Crumbling down.
What will happen when even the "high" end loot will drop down in price? The staff doesn't cough up new zones every day, so new loot doesn't jump out of the pocket...
And how will I get cash when I will get in my 60ies? At that time, even the higher lvl items will sell for crap.
To me, the actual lack of cash inc on the market actually reinforces mudflation, as nearly any guy that farms a bit of cash will be able to gear over his level soon. And that because of both the market being flooded with goods, and the cash inc being so small that people save money instead of spending it.
If the staff cares about mudflation, they should have a look into this. And please, not by nerfing the (small) cash farms availables at our levels. For exemple, I make around 70pps an hour in Shrouded Island and 50 at the giants, just for mind nubbing kills ( and I also let the place to the guys that exp there if they happen to ask), looting everything that sells over 1pp, gating back to vendor and running back. that's a lot of work, for not that much considering the efforts I was putting on live to have way more. So it's not the income that is wrong, it's the market price. And if the market price is too low, that means people don't get cash out of their sells, wich means they will hoard more, buy less, down the prices to undercut the neighbour, and here's the loop.
I have the feeling it can be adressed by making the lore items bind on equip go live ( but this is another thread) to reduce items on market, and also by upping the cash incomes. While they may have been ridiculously high in the past, having it too low will hurt the economy as well. There has to be a middle point to be found there.
But it has to be quick, or low level chars equipent will soon be ridiculous. With higher lvl equipment being limited to Deepmetal/shadowsilk etc for people that don't raid, many will feel left out in the gap. I had the feeling this was not really intended.
lore items BoE is a good idea, but are there other tags that the item devs can put onto an item? Can they actually put a Bind/No Drop on Equip tag on the item. It can be put into the item description just as "This item is made with tradeskills" is done. TS items being BoE is a good idea too, a person can level up (all theoretical here) a druid wearing wyvernhide armor, decided they want a new class, and give everything they are wearing to their new beastlord. This means those tailors only ever sell to that person once, highly bringing down their potential profit for the work put into tailoring, and narrowing their market even more than it originally was.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
kibeth said:
Which of course will not help, with most of the population (insofar as tradeskills go). Most guilds having an agreement of a max level tradeskiller in their guild. Thus people will go get the combines done, and that money does not circulate, rather it is sunk, further reducing the plat in circulation leading to more deflation.
@tm yeah dude it was. Cyc's hg's island giants, and at least a few named spawns I know of. In the past 20 kills on the ph on one he did not spawn once. Now granted I am entirely aware that 20 trials is not enough power to determine whether it was due to chance, but for a guy that invariably popped within 3-5 kills? Out of faaaaar in excess of 200ish kills on the placeholder/named? Yeah I'd have to say it was nerfed. I never really did the osm giants so I can't speak for the namedspawn on those. But I have killed them the past few times I ran through to confirm the nerfed plat and gemrate on them, which I've also noticed in the gsm and the island ones. The icegiants seem relatively untouched actually, which surprises me. But then again it has been like 7-8 months since I had actually farmed them.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Oh other economy nerfs btw include griffon feathers (down to 4p and change from 7) giant clubs (down to 1p and change iirc, but carrying them sucks so I never bothered before.), The skull staffs (down pretty far from what they were iirc, were an excellent source of $ at low levels (ie 15ish-upper 30's), and not even close to overpowered, if someone wants to argue about this particular one, I'd be happy to.). A few other things probably as well, but these are what come to mind at the moment.
the whole idea that the economy is the same because the same amount of PP is in the game atm as it was 5 months ago is absolutely ignorant of the fact that people are saving for charms. I have aroudn 35k stagnating in a bank, going up slowly for charm money. sure, the same amount of PP may be there, but millions of it is rotting in people's banks, while they try to gain PP for it one of two ways. Either they farm cash, which gets nerfed, or they farm items, and saturate the market, reducing overall value of gear in general. Farming more for plat or items is not a problem if that PP is then reentering the economy, but its currently just sitting in bank, waiting for new charm.
