The SoD economy
- Thread starter Danku
- Start date
syduck: Have you bothered with any tmaps or adepts?
Allielyn
*Pony*
At 32 I was still wearing stuff I'd looted off of monsters, because I didn't have any money wherewith to buy stuff. That doesn't necessarily mean I was wearing cool stuff. . . it means you have more money now, therefore I'd say the economy is working as intended. I'll say it again:
This will be ESPECIALLY true if you bought high level droppables in the recent economy depression, where items off of the entry level raid mobs (like Lenny the Gargantuan and The Crusher) went for < 500 pp. Tell me your ingame name so I can Fomelo you, and I'll let you know how hard the mobs are that drop your stuff, if you like. In addition, I'll try to see if tmaps and adepts or other mobs in your range would drop upgrades.
Allielyn said:
This will be ESPECIALLY true if you bought high level droppables in the recent economy depression, where items off of the entry level raid mobs (like Lenny the Gargantuan and The Crusher) went for < 500 pp. Tell me your ingame name so I can Fomelo you, and I'll let you know how hard the mobs are that drop your stuff, if you like. In addition, I'll try to see if tmaps and adepts or other mobs in your range would drop upgrades.
Allielyn
*Pony*
JoeMeyer said:
Woah Woah Woah wait. 10k is a LOT of money, which would take most 65s some weeks to farm. This isn't Live, where pp is so devalued that people have millions. I don't believe in your case you can make a valid argument about the economy, being as twinked out as you are.
And if you weren't given the money, you'd be able to find upgrades from stuff you killed.
You might be forced to explore some of the world, or do simple treasure maps or adepts (which have the coolest loot imo) but you'd find it. In case you haven't been paying attention, the following is a list of loot from the level 32 adepts:
Sandblister Chestplate
Battered Journeyman's Bag
Dawn Ring
Sandtooth
Ruewood Bracer
Treantwood Crossbow
Mask of Enchanted Bark
Runewood Greaves
And here are some from the tier 30-40 simple tmaps:
Ancestral Signet
War-Painted Scout Mask
Earring of Continuity
Keldath's Well-Worn Headpeice
Some of that stuff is awesome, and might even be an upgrade for the stuff you bought. If you can't get an adept raid together, usually it isn't hard to get a good group together for tmaps, which go for 100 pp on the open market.
Allielyn
*Pony*
Here is the wiki's list of NPC loot from five zones you could probably get exp hunting in.
Cauldron of Dawn
Heartland Plateau
King's Pass
Lair of Paw
Halls of Mielech
Cauldron of Dawn
Heartland Plateau
King's Pass
Lair of Paw
Halls of Mielech
rapidghost
Dalayan Beginner
vistachiri said:
I'm not sure if you realize this, but by saying that we need a discussion thread for 'problems' when they arise directly implies that there is a 'problem' with the economy.
And yes, updates have been made, revisions come about and other such things, but they were not 'fixing' the economy, just changing the way it worked so that it better suited what the dev's had envisioned. Had no updates come, there still would be plenty of buying and selling going on for anything that is buyable / sellable. (which is a strong argument that the economy is not unbalanced.)
vistachiri said:
My point above describes exactly what you are suggesting, which btw is the same point I've had all along. Perhaps I'm not the only one in need of learning to read? I don't need to throw pot shots at your level of intelligence anymore, as I've been warned by an admin and your not worth my time. So here goes the though process, just because you asked for it.
Suppose plat drops goe up, economy bulges with extra platinum on all the lower level people, most of the usable mid-level gear is bought up and prices begin to rise. Tradeskills become somewhat harder because nobody really cares about farming as much tradeskill regents anymore because the newbs options are better if he farms plat directly. So after this 'initial change' made by admins, where there is more money and prices haven't been adjusted quite yet, sure, lotta stuff gets sold and everyone is happy, but eventually what happens? Tboots are tboots, reguardless of how much you pay for them, its going to eventually take about the same ammount of farming time-wise to get them, reguardless of what the price is and why? Because, the supply will eventually catch up with demand, and reguardless of wether its 400plat or 4000plat, the only thing that actually directs what the price will be is how much they are sold for.
For example, newbs really aren't interested in actuall plat, they interested in how hard it is to obtain it. Newb A devotes 10 hours of his gaming life to go and get some tboots, suppose he farms 400plat. Tboots are worth that he thinks to himself so he goes to buy them. Newb B feels the same way, only he's willing to pay his life savings for them, 600plat. Boom, price of tboots just went for 600. Inflation is not a problem, because all that's saying is the cost is going up, which is obviously what will happen when people have more plat to spend.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to spell that out, as I'm devoting more time than I bargained on this subject. The reason my points are 'salient' are because I'm attempting to silence any complaints about the economy by proving there is nothing wrong with it. I voted to trash the subject because I feel that no matter what happens with the economy it ends up taking care of itself of its own accord. The only thing that may need attention, is how the feel of the game is in reguard to progress. If your level 30 and have crap for gear, then you should not be rewarded for attempting to purchase uber items and failing. At level 30 farming money shouldn't be your main goal, god forbid SoD gets to the point of farming at level 30. If you want decent gear at level 30, some very valid routes are availiable and they don't require any 'grinding'.
The reason my posts have been so long, are because I'm getting so much resistance on the subject. Which is to be expected I suppose. It's easier for you to say, "there is a problem with the economy". Than to really think the economics through. It's just like saying "I'm not paid enough for my job." Anyone can complain about their job's payrate, but it takes a truly unbiased person to realize that he's paid what he is because that's what he's agreed to.
I'm posting in this thread because I'm tired of people complaining about the economy when there is still buying and selling in mass. And I think it's flawed logic to think that these revisions are done because of an unbalanced or 'problematic' economy. Of course, there will be changes to the economy. The progression of a characters gear throughout his leveling is something that devs really care about, because that's an important part of a good game (variety). But those changes aren't made because of a faulty economy, they're made because the experience of the game needs some spice.
Now that the thread is 10 pages long, we'll be getting less and less posters actually reading the entire thread, so I suppose now that I've explained myself so thoroughly there's no need to re-iterate. Unless of course I'm incapable of conveying my opinion in an understandable manner, which I'm beginning to think is the case. Irreguardless, I think this IQ peeing-contest has gone quite far enough Vistachari, please try to keep the gloves up and I'll do likewise.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Better suiting a changing population, overfarming, the sweeping changes in what certain items sell for, nodrop loot changes, etc, etc, etc. All things that change how the economy works, and led to the problems that other than you, pretty much 90% of the people around said, hrm...things are kind of spiraling. Keeping a preemptive thread up in case there are problems with the economy implying there is a problem with the economy...is just wow.... That would be akin to getting a yearly screening for breast cancer implying you have breast cancer.rapidghost said:
As for the "Changing the way it worked so that it better suited what the dev's had envisioned", semantics, plain and simple. It was not changed, until this cropped up. In not only this thread, but in many many others that are inextricably tied to the economy itself.
rapidghost said:
Quite frankly I did read it, and saw pretty much, a sentence talking about what I was talking about, then a bunch of unrelated, probably talking about a long over discussion as far as most were concerned. I pretty much left the thread once changes were in, because economies tend to take a while to show any changes. Thus bitching about things being back to business as usual so to speak, or not being back to that. Would be pretty much futile until one examines what is happening currently as the changes start to have greater effects. I also believe you mean you're and thought.
rapidghost said:
Considering the old state of things approximately 1 year to 6 months ago. When I might add plat drops were higher at lower levels by quite a bit from what they were at least before the change before last, the economy was fine. So any point you attempt to show about this, pretty much gets mostly lost in the previous effects that existed. No one is talking about really a gross increase either. Griffon feathers for instance, once an excellent source of money at the lower levels, sell for less, as does pretty much everything off of the aforementioned mobs. Giants (of the hill variety) as mentioned also in this thread, were faaaar better, being mostly unworthy of farming nowadays (at least before the change, again I've been too preoccupied lately to go and kill one and see what they are at now). Cyclopses are a bit better now than what they were at, not approaching of course the glory days when they had the hell farmed out of them. But at least they are no longer dropping malachites. Gorge of course while being an excellent farming zone due to activity rather than mind numbing sitting was a decent place to go. Also of course I would be remiss if I didnt point out it was a good 40ish farming/xp zone combined. Something this thread one would hope helped increase across the board, as the costs of xp debt were barely being alleviated in many zones, a problem many individuals had in this thread.
rapidghost said:
Not the only thing obviously. One would be entirely remiss to not discuss the effect that various platnerfs previously had on the price of items. One may be willing to pay 1k for boots, but if they do not have it...well they're not getting it. One also cannot ignore the trend in auctions in the past few months as well. With actual "auctions" becoming commonplace, where there had been not even one before. This was also discussed, I believe in this thread, though due to my extensive posting in both this and the bind on equip thread...well it will be in one of them, though as to which, I'm far too lazy to go check. To sum it up though, since not everyone sits on listsold for quite some time like myself, and constantly pays attention to auctions to see exactly what things are worth at current, both as a service to my guild, and obviously in service to myself, as a way to increase profit from farming. Many of them get the idea of what things are going for (especially if they are new) from auctions. Thus if the new auctioning happens to take place while not much demand for the item is currently online, then they get it into their heads that that item, is worth only that much. Another thing probably damaging prices somewhat would be the reselling that goes on from vendors. Though certainly I would think to a far lesser extent than other factors.
rapidghost said:
Determining inflation from 2 sales would obviously be pretty sad. More to the point Na, and Nb talk to each other, while the normal market price previous to those particular sales (say someone really wanted to get rid of their backstock, close to a charm or something like that) was 800. Both talk, Na essentially tells Nb, he got screwed. When asked by their friends what a fair market price would be they respond with the 400, perhaps with a range, of around 4-6. Thus a new market price becomes entrenched in the minds of more than just 2. It begins to spread through the populace. More of a diversion from the point of course, but one to be expected to happen more when funds at the high end are taken down, as the higher end players see themselves making less, and move more towards items as a source of funding, and more often than not, would be willing to let these items go for far less than previously.
There really aren't any more complaints about the economy at current. Well, perhaps not none. But very few. You're a bit late to weigh in on that. No one is also talking about so called "uber items". Those are generally, expensive, and rare. Things like mantle of the forest, shield of freeport, yatic's coat of the dammed, most things from firstruins, bonded blade of the torturer, etc, etc. Have generally remained out of reach for most, most of the time. This will probably stay that way for quite some time. You illustrate one of the problems of course with sod, without really intending to. Sure you shoudn't have uber gear, if of course it's your first character and not a twink. You also shouldn't be wearing regular silk, leather, chain, or plate, at level 30. That of course is a different matter entirely. One with a number of symptoms, a lack of midlevel content in some areas, items that were never adjusted for various reasons (tmaps becoming available to lower level people, etc). That however is a discussion for another thread. You shouldn't be able to buy for example a shield of freeport for a 30ish paladin, you should be able to afford upgrades appropriate to your level however, which with the previous nerfs to giants, etc, was far more difficult than it used to be, and more difficult than necessary.rapidghost said:
rapidghost said:
The resistance you've been getting is mostly from wiz, who essentially told you, if you don't want to read it, stay out of it, and myself who disagrees. Rather than actually discuss things, you come into the conversation with something akin to I'm right everyone else is wrong, and keep talking about things that for the most part have already been hashed out.
rapidghost said:
Far less than there used to be. Oh and if one reads this and the other threads in their entirety, there were problems. Such as when it was pointed out that groups at the highend barely covered costs if at all for many classes. Also again we see semantics. Whether the economy was faulty or not isn't the issue, though with a slower influx of people than was typical, among other things, obviously things needed to be adjusted. However if changes happened, then it was partially as a result of this and other threads pointing out that perhaps, things are not as they should be. Staff (at least I'm fairly certain of this) do not spend an inordinate amount of time testing every little thing and adjusting the market. They are fairly more focused on adding new content, performing gm duties, etc. THAT is why suggestions and requests, as well as balancing discussion exist.
rapidghost said:
Iq pissing contest eh? I'm unaware at any point in this particular tour-de force, where I attempted to initiate one. No I merely made a comment that I thought an ongoing thread in balance and discussion would be beneficial, as well as more appropriate than having it here. Then you fire off with attacking this viewpoint, with imo absolutely no good reason, other than you feel it is within your importance to attempt to silence people talking about something you don't see as a problem and do not care to see discussed. Also a great deal of people have been reading the thread, and probably will continue to do so as things change. A small population of people playing on an emulated everquest server isn't necessarily representative of the population at large, and I wouldn't be surprised if more people than you think read this thread, as I generally find that very few of the regulars on here don't read an entire thread. Though perhaps I'd think having been part of this community for quite some time I have a slight bit more faith in them than most. Of course since things have become quite less problematic in the opinion of most (After the changes) they may see no need to further view the thread, though for quite some time it has been a subject of discussion for the community at large. Though few representatives of various interests are present.
so i got tired of reading this pretty fast.. i just thought id put in my 2cents.. the problem isnt really money flow... its items.. they might have been nerfed.. but they are still being farmed.. and with the population not really changing.. that just means more and more are in the same hands.. and they are getting tired of holding them.. people will lower their prices to get rid of things.. people will refuse to buy some things because they can get something twice as good for the same price.. ive sold some things to vendors just because vendors pay more than id actually try to sell it for.. ok cool.. now we arent selling lowbie items to lowbies... because.. merchants pay more.. im not one to complain. i just save up for bigger items anyway.
but really.. the economy will steadily get worse and worse as people farm. you have your high end raiders able to duo mobs that drop items that use to be 3-4k... now they are going down to like 2k.... the problem really isnt drops.. really isnt money... imo its the population.. we are just to small of a server. the items cant trade amongst enough people... and when people leave.. items usually stay in the game.. people give them to friends.. or give their chars to people.. and people use the items or whatever.. the economy is likely to just get worse and worse.. theres no incentive anymore to do tradeskills. cant make enough to pay for themselves now much less make profit...
small summary. economy is on a straight road downhill... charms are fine.. they do as they should. money is fine.. you arent suppose to be wearing raid loot at level 30.. stop complaining. want to complain.. complain to people who farm like mad.. they flood the economy with items.. but wait.. you dont want to complain to them.. they get the items.. so in the end.. we get to either deal with how things are.. or we can start asking them to nerf the crap out of things.. thatd raise the prices right back up... (side note.. im tired and sick.. and kinda grumpy atm)
but really.. the economy will steadily get worse and worse as people farm. you have your high end raiders able to duo mobs that drop items that use to be 3-4k... now they are going down to like 2k.... the problem really isnt drops.. really isnt money... imo its the population.. we are just to small of a server. the items cant trade amongst enough people... and when people leave.. items usually stay in the game.. people give them to friends.. or give their chars to people.. and people use the items or whatever.. the economy is likely to just get worse and worse.. theres no incentive anymore to do tradeskills. cant make enough to pay for themselves now much less make profit...
small summary. economy is on a straight road downhill... charms are fine.. they do as they should. money is fine.. you arent suppose to be wearing raid loot at level 30.. stop complaining. want to complain.. complain to people who farm like mad.. they flood the economy with items.. but wait.. you dont want to complain to them.. they get the items.. so in the end.. we get to either deal with how things are.. or we can start asking them to nerf the crap out of things.. thatd raise the prices right back up... (side note.. im tired and sick.. and kinda grumpy atm)
khador said:
I think you definitely have some valid points. Oversaturation is really the primary problem I see out there. If you look at what's actually available item-wise from 1-60 today, it blows your mind compared to say a year ago. Hell, up and coming tanks always wore leather (tailored stuff) back then. You didn't have the widely available adepts like you do today, and they are actually known about. Then there are tmaps. There is a lot more available on SOD today. The only thing there really isn't a lot of is population, relatively speaking.
I would wager to say there is little "degradation" so-to-say with regard to items. Sure some people quit, but overall there are a lot more items out there just as the previous poster attested to; and I would say that the number of items is definitely increasing. Supply is going up and up, and there does not seem to be anything counterbalancing this.
Danku said:
With regard to farming, I am, and I believe others as well are not referring to stuff like paw loot that will get vendored. Nobody should be vendoring the highend dropables (a vendor will pay maybe 150pp for a girdle of ancient rocks?) or stuff like deepmetal and shadowsilk. I just don't get how you can say that everything will just be fine. Sure, there will be an equilibrium, but if that equilibrium falls to within 10% of the vendor price, then that's not good at all. Claiming that NPCs buying items will fix economy problems is just ludicrous IMO.
Also, the argument that people won't want to waste time selling is simply not a real argument when it comes to the highend farming. Ask any farmer out there. 65+ farming is all about selling to players. The day we see a Ring of the Plagueseer or a Mantle of Swift Decisions on a vendor would be sad.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
hooden said:
I did not claim it would fix it, I stated a point of equilibrium would be reached. As for higher items not getting vendored, there is a limit to the population. Even if every item was bind on equip(not a terrible idea), it would only be a short term solution. The problem is once an item is in game, it stays. There is a limit to what will be bought due to limited population. Unless everyone wants to go work on increasing the population there is no real solution. Some games use item rot, some games require item maintenance, same problem in every game ever made but addressed in different ways. Here an NPC will pay something for the item, which then secures a bottom floor price.
The only other suggestion I could see that would help with this problem is the ability to turn items in and gain XP or credit towards a charm.
rapidghost
Dalayan Beginner
I really dont see Vistachari how you think anyone is actually going to read your entire post. I do enjoy that you've wasted enough time from your day to read every word I've written, and although your still not capable of understanding the simplicity of what I'm saying - at least you tried.
I'm hoping off this thread as there's obviously no point in sticking around, I've made my point and at least it was worth reading even when it dragged on several paragraphs. I do truly hope that at some point in the future you get past that dictionary sitting on your desk and work on logical though instead. :dance:
I'm hoping off this thread as there's obviously no point in sticking around, I've made my point and at least it was worth reading even when it dragged on several paragraphs. I do truly hope that at some point in the future you get past that dictionary sitting on your desk and work on logical though instead. :dance: