The DPS Ranking

On a side note to help bridge the gap between Necros/Mages/enchamters and wizards is tere any chance of giving us a chance to ultimate? Wizards should have a higher chance and the chance at primals but I think maybe 1/2 the chance that wizards have upon scoring a crit to primal would be pretty close to appropriate. This would also add the dps boost to put necros and mages above ranger/monk (monks they are already above), where right now a comparable ranger will usually outperform mages and beat necros pretty solidly.

I do not have any new parses to show this data as FwF has quit raiding. I would appreciate if someone else could provide a few parses from a range of tiers to show how it is currently so it can be seen what needs to be done.
 
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susvain said:
Reehs parsed just under 500 DPS auto attacking gators with no song damage after custo sword nerf. Bard DPS takes off quite a bit in the endgame.
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ill just chime in real quick because i cant sit idly by while someone is talking about bards.

bard dps got lower with the sword nerf, but it still definitely gets a nice bump after acquiring both the 4.3 bard weapon and the custo sword. bards should no question be the lowest dps class and i usually was even with those items unless we were carrying some under geared toon along, or in certain fight specific circumstances where i was allowed to do additional dps.

im not sure if we really had a reliable beastlord before i got those items, but the dps change overall from whatever weapons i used before wasn't crazy. It mainly moved dps from non-melee to melee. when we did have a geared beastlord along we were usually very close in dps, equally geared monks also beat me consistently.

edit: on a good long parse fight i would do maybe 65% of the top dpsers

also that dps you are citing susvain was with 4.3 sword clicky which is pretty huge, and is a detrimental song for damage purposes.
 
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enchanters should really be under warrior but above sk
they are a very fun class to play and should be able to bring the big #'s to the group.
Not saying all the passive enc skills and buffs dont bring alot already,
but in most cases atm unless u need mez ur better off without an enc which isnt fun for them im sure.
a friend has better luck getting exp groups on his lvl 55 cleric then his 65 enc, =(

I dont really know how to up the dps thou that prob hasnt already been thought of.
so on the total flip side of dps,,
My suggestion would be make somatic bond have a % chance to mimic heals or some other
support buff so that they could possibly fill in for 2nd healer spots.
 
I think a good way would be to change the tome of critical evocation, modify it so that it still adds 1% chance of crit on nukes, but have it add the ability to Ultimate (if client available) to mage necro and enchanter and add % ultimates to wizards. Maybe 5% per rank or something, not 100% sure on numbers, this would boost the dps of all casters, including enc esp if they have the AoD spell and still keep and boost wizard dps.
 
Anti Eh said:
Not saying all the passive enc skills and buffs dont bring alot already,
but in most cases atm unless u need mez ur better off without an enc which isnt fun for them im sure.
a friend has better luck getting exp groups on his lvl 55 cleric then his 65 enc, =(
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Easy solution(stolen from EQ2),make buffs fade when the buffer leaves the group.
And yes I am serious and aware of the consequences.
 
Anti Eh said:
a friend has better luck getting exp groups on his lvl 55 cleric then his 65 enc, =(
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That just means most people that play the game are stupid. Enchanters are amazing in the group if they only are there to cast GoE on the dps.
 
I thank you all.

As a "mained" enchanter, I'd just like to thank you all for putting me at the bottom of the DPS lists. It gives me something to look forward to. :p

But seriously, a good enchanter knows he's not going to be invited for his DPS. A great enchanter knows that he isn't invited for his buffs. A real enchanter knows he's invited because of his stunning good looks, his jokes, and his sarcasm.

Also, we can cast minor illusion which turns us into a box or torch. BAM. Beat that.
 
enchanters with runic 1, whatever the hell giantkin is called now and some good dps to cast it on can already do some OK numbers.
 
Yeah Grinkles has aggro issues pretty frequently when he runs a bunch of AoD and Somatic Bond targets at the same time. I'm pretty sure an enchanter running those spells easily out parses tanks and healers and maybe more so I think people putting them on the bottom of the list meant more "what would enchanter dps be if they were just using their own nukes/dots" or something.
 
i think when we did cmal 4.3 with adalus in the group he did at least 550 by casting those spells on a wizard and ranger, and that was when he had a damage inc 7 item rather than the sword from that fight. pretty solid
 
CharmCitysKing said:
I am serious... And don't call me Shirley
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more often than not i have always seen a ranger like baxters do more than a wizard than nuchure, (pardon the spelling) not sure if it was just the fight or what. but the big examples were thekrak, forest gloom. I know for forest gloom it was my guess that the mob had very very low armor so a ranger would do more damage. I'm not sure if rangers just scale greater at the t12 area or what but he always did seem to do more than casters.
 
I don't think people understand just how complex dps being calculated in a fight can be.

I came to SoD after playing wow for over five years. During that five years I was one of, if not the top, rogues on the server. (PvE because PvP is dumb "lol omg I'm bad") dps meters in wow were leeps and bounds more advanced in every single way then what we have to deal with in SoD.

The main problem in SoD is that it is very hard to get accurate numbers for everyone. This was the same in wow but you could link the info together with other players to get more accurate numbers. The only way to really get accurate nunbers in SoD is have everyone parse themselves and have them most it.

Being able to see dps live really let's you understand how much every little things adds up. That time the ranger position was off and he was not shooting for a bit, that time the monk was too far from the mob for five seconds due to the pally stunning the mob and pushing the mob away, knowing where a mob will pop or port to during a fight to begin damaging the mob sooner. All of these things add up to make dps.

Tldr; dps isn't a cut or dry thing. Just because class x did more dps then class y on fight z doesn't mean that this list of dps order is broken or incorrect. Skill && knowledge of the fight (when to use that ae clicky, having targeting macros) really mean more then what class you are in most cases. I feel that this is a good thing.
 
I completely agree with Kedrin how the player plays is just as if not moreso a factor than class and gear. Knowing when to time clickies and disc play a big role in dps.
 
ynnear said:
more often than not i have always seen a ranger like baxters do more than a wizard than nuchure, (pardon the spelling) not sure if it was just the fight or what. but the big examples were thekrak, forest gloom. I know for forest gloom it was my guess that the mob had very very low armor so a ranger would do more damage. I'm not sure if rangers just scale greater at the t12 area or what but he always did seem to do more than casters.
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fg is not something to take parses on especially wiz vs ranger.. fg takes iirc 35% increase melee damage during phase 1/3 and counterspells p1 as well as having seemingly insane cr in phase 3 (ive always just spammed runic 2 there it's much more effective) tack on the other aspects of the fight and yea wizards suck for it aside from add phases.
 
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Well imo DPS i not just DPS...

There is the DPS you read in the parser, A did X damage.
But there is also DPS that you don't read in the parser, for example if A did X damage, but had a buff on that helped do 20% of the damage a debuff on the target that helped do 10%, can you really contribute all of X damage to A?


Direct DPS, the DPS that you can read in the parser, there are also different types of DPS, 3 different types comes to mind:

Sustained dps. (30 minuts of non stop fighting for example)
Burst dps. (If this guy doesn't drop from 40% to 20% in seconds, we lose...)
AE dps. (Mostly nice in exp groups, but also in many (most?) raid situtation)


Indirect DPS would mostly be buffs with short durations if exp groups.
For raids it would basicly be any buff. The shorter the duration, the more you have to bring the class to benefit.



Hmm rest of my post got deleted when i tried to edit it, oh well.
 
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Sustained dps. (30 minuts of non stop fighting for example)
Burst dps. (If this guy doesn't drop from 40% to 20% in seconds, we lose...)
AE dps. (Mostly nice in exp groups, but also in many (most?) raid situtation)

As long as encounters make use of all types of DPS and class dps that is a win.
Here is an encounter that would make use of all types of dps and class roles at the same time

2 named + 6 trash pull
Split the trash off that are mezable or fully split able.
Once trash is taken care of 2 named remain

Named:
Taruk- A large Cold type mob Immuned to all magic
does not engage until Majan is at 98%
The AOE is cold based and does damage scaled to resits
200-499 resits it does 500
500+ resist it does 250
Untill 45% spawns Large chunks of ice that will have Large agro on 1 person will hit and stun doing a Whirlwind of damage for 1000-2000 and disappear after (mimics being hit by an ice block) Tanks are able to intercept these.


Majan- A Fire TYpe mob Immuned to all physical Damage
The AOE is Fire based and does damage scaled to resits
200-499 resits it does 500
500+ resist it does 250
Until 65% summons flame demons that will multiply if not killed fast enough.

Once each of the named hit 45% they stop their specials and ramp up their melee damage and AOE damage. They can not be brought past 20% untill they both reach this number. Once they are both at 20% they will continue phase 1 again until dead.

NO WHERE NEAR DONE WITH THIS. busy at work finish this later

This is just a made up encounter where depending on the raid comp the fight can be done differently. The raid will still need melee and Caster dps but depending on whats greater will decide how you deal with the fight. Also having more tanks will allow you to dps slower on the Summoned adds.

If your raid is heavy casters you can burn Majan to 45% faster with some dps pointed at the demons to keep them under control. Majan hits 45% while Taruk is still at 70% leave light caster DPS on majan while all melee burn down Taruk.

I'm using the adds that are summoned as sort of a Buffer for melee and magic DPS. Depending on what you have more of you'll put on the Summoned adds. to keep the dps more spread out.

Fight starts:
Majan"TARUK! come my brother these mortals seek to destroy us!"
Taruk"I am at your side Majan"
at 98% Majan raises his hand and chants (First add is summoned)
The walls begin to shake as Taruk lets lose a roar, large shards of ice begin to swirl around.
at 45% Majan or Taruk will emote that they they lose their concentration and fight with more rage.
at 20% Majan/Taruk "Aid me my brother they focus their powers on me!"
when both are at 20% something about them concentrating. blah blab blah you get the point.

TL;DR
What I'm getting at is its ether part of class design to even things or allow for all classes to be fully use-full in any fight. I'm not as familiar with high end content I don't know if its like this or not but a lot of low end fights don't really provide much in the way of option. Some mobs will only Whirlwind negating low tier melee DPS on that fight.
 
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So this topic just sort of died without anything coming of it, or at least anything visible to the playerbase. After a few months of doing stuff with Exo, and based on that and my time with FWF, I'd say that for the most part the dps hierarchy is pretty balanced. It seems like necros need a bump to match other top tier dps, monks need either better dps or utility to be worth their spot, and pallies are still substantially lower than other tanks and the weakest tank class overall.

I've seen a few staff mention in other places that they think certain classes might need their dps nerfed and I disagree. There's nothing currently happening that's really out of line like the ranger runic2 used to be for example. T12+ fights are pretty tightly balanced and nothing at the upper tiers is anywhere near trivial with current dps levels so it seems like helping the classes that are lacking would make a lot more sense than trying to bring everyone else down to their level and messing with content difficulty as a result.

Also if you really want to get good data for dps rankings, spawn a few different dummies in Arena or GFay or something and let the players give you solid baseline dps numbers in the controlled environment you proposed in the OP.
 
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