The amount of plat you get when you sell your Charm(s)

So make it a trade in rate of 85-90% but do not receive plat back. Find some way that you get credit with the charm NPC. This 1) removes the plat as intended 2) keeps charms from basically being traded.

I think Zhak may be saying moving his charm costs too much, but most seem to be wanting to not lose so much when they go to upgrade. So, sorry if that is a sidetrack.
 
The biggest thing I see here that changed with the NO DROP change is:

215k - 71k

Before the change you could sell a 215k charm for 200k (might take a few weeks). Now you are guaranteed to have to farm an extra 56k if you want to upgrade, which is a large chunk of change. Its even larger when you consider that most of the plat farming places took a hefty nerf and camping named mobs with less than a full group is nerfed. It WAS easier to get a big charm before the NO DROP changes simply because of the sellback value and it was easier to farm cash/items sold for more.
 
Personally I would like to see there be an option to have your charm carry over to the next charm as 95% WITHOUT getting plat back and another option to cash it out at the current price.
 
Waldoff said:
Personally I would like to see there be an option to have your charm carry over to the next charm as 95% WITHOUT getting plat back and another option to cash it out at the current price.

I like this idea, because it means less work for me.

However, was the loss in plat as you escalate charms balanced into their cost when they were implemented? The main complaint seems to be "but it takes x more farming to go from a to b charm", but if the loss in plat separate from the price is already figured into the charm progression, then the system for removing platinum from the game is working as intended.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Making it easier to upgrade from Charm A to Charm B all on the same character--that's fine, I'm on board.

Ya, id like to see that, because i am farmin cash, but i am not sure if ill buy the 216k, or keep holdin for the 500k one... with the current system, sux to upgrade charms. Id like to see it change :)
 
Thinkmeats said:
The charms were made nodrop because of a very specific set of reasons, none of which are addressed in the OP or the majority of the thread. While there might be an argument to be had that charms should be more mobile, the stuff in this thread so far hasn't hit the mark. I know most of you would be happier because you look at it like it's giving everyone a boost and hurting nothing, but you should look at the bigger picture: Droppable charms have a big pile of nonobivous problems with them. They were made NO DROP for good reasons, after all. Anything that makes NO DROP charms easier to move or sell is a step back in that direction.

Yes, you lose money when selling your charm--that isn't bad. You lose money when you die, you lose money when you use potions, etc; there are lots of ways to gain or lose money and there are lots of things to buy with that money, not all of which are resaleable. When you pay debt you can't turn around and re-sell that xp for 95% plat. It's good that moving a 'NO DROP' item costs so much money that it's not really worth it. That's what NO DROP is supposed to do.

Bluntly, mobile charms are far more trouble than they're worth, and a 95% resale on charms is very, very close to being full-on tradeable (95% close, to be exact :haw: ). Making it easier to upgrade from Charm A to Charm B all on the same character--that's fine, I'm on board. Stuff like this is fine:

But makinig it at all reasonable to move a charm from one character to another? No, that defeats the entire purpose of a moneysink. We'd be back where we started.

Your main point in this thread was to keep charms a plat sink. Currently, almost no one moves charms from char A to char B because of the huge loss of plat, and some people have even started skipping their juggo. Making it so that the penalty on selling a charm is much less than it currently is means that more people are going to be selling back charms / trading them around to different chars etc and the server will more than likely 'plat sink' more money than it currently is doing. Quantity in big numbers but low volume isn't always greater than quantity in little numbers with a bigger volume. It would simply make it far less of a time sink for those that have already invested huge amounts of time and plat in to their charms to have an option to move their charm(s) around as they desire.

I guess I don't see the reason in making someone lose 100k to 400k ( eternal and 1.2 ) just to move their charm from one character to another, it's apparent that they've put forth the huge amount of time and dedication to already get their charm, it seems silly to penalize these people even more if they ever wish to have their charm on a different character.
 
Not like my view on this really matters (most expensive charm I have bought is FT1 for 540 something)

I agree, that getting more of your pp back when you go to upgrade charms would definitely be an improvment. It would incourage more people to buy charms earlyer instead of just hording money for the big drops later on.

Thinkmeats comment as makes me wonder...

Could a possible rebalance of cash values on charms be looked into. If they were not balanced with no drop in mind, then prehaps a general decrease in cost across the board.

Currently Look at some of those higher end charms (100k-212k ones) and go.... Not if Hell Frozen over would I drop that much PP into a item. Of course my view might change after 300+ AAs and my entire inventory turns into No Drop. But currently the higher end Charms are just one of those items people link from the end end game that everyone drools over but no one has.
 
Zhak said:
Quantity in big numbers but low volume isn't always greater than quantity in little numbers with a bigger volume.

I completely agree with this, for what it's worth. There can be arguments both ways, but of anything that's been posted in the thread, nothing is more true than this.
 
I suppose the way we acquire charm just makes this process a risky investment. You don't spend that amount of money without thinking twice (yes even at a juggo-level charm it's always a hefty sum for the person acquiring it).
It sounds fair to think that the guy who will struggle with few hundred pp charm all the way to a Supreme charm of valor should be rewarded against the guy who took all steps (200k, 500k, then 1M) because it's simply more of an accomplishment ; what I mean is people skipping a charm step (like the juggo, or even before a Barrier for example), if it becomes more common, isn't a bad thing to me. I'm positive that a lot of people will still prefer getting their 200k before the eternity, whatever the code.
On your specific case Zhak, it seems you haven't thought enough beforehand about this matter if you wish to trade Zhak's charm for Podge's...can't blame the rules.
 
I like the idea of being able to upgrade your charm for the same character without having to eat a 40% loss via a credit of some sort (something where you don't actually get plat back). How how close to 100% return rate it should be... I don't know. What I do know is that 40% is just too much of a loss when upgrading charm (as most would agree, hence the thread after thread on this subject). I don't know how I feel about plat or credits being transferable from one character to the other though.
 
Waldoff said:
Personally I would like to see there be an option to have your charm carry over to the next charm as 95% WITHOUT getting plat back and another option to cash it out at the current price.

I think this is a great idea. Then there would be little reason to skip tiers of charms, which would take pp out of the economy that much faster (for those whose savings burn holes in their pockets =P).

I wouldn't even mind if there were no option to cash it out for PP back. You wouldn't be able to transfer charms from 1 character to another, which would make it more of a plat sinc, which is what it is designed to be in the first place.
 
Zhak said:
Your main point in this thread was to keep charms a plat sink. Currently, almost no one moves charms from char A to char B because of the huge loss of plat, and some people have even started skipping their juggo. Making it so that the penalty on selling a charm is much less than it currently is means that more people are going to be selling back charms / trading them around to different chars etc and the server will more than likely 'plat sink' more money than it currently is doing.

This is somewhat incorrect. Charms aren't a perfect plat sink--they can be turned back into plat at an npc vendor at any time; the only sink that happens is the difference between the charm's purchase price and the charm's sell price. However, as far as the economy's concerned, a charm that can't be sold without incurring horrible losses is just as good as sunk money. If you can move your charm around at a 5% loss each time, yes, you're sinking little amounts of money here and there--but you'd have to do it 20 times to sink the whole cost of the charm.

"But thinkmeats," you object. "The money's as good as sunk, I'm just moving it from one character to another!"--No. That's precisely the definition of not-sunk money. The whole point of a plat sink is to remove it from circulation. Think about it. What happens if something super-shiney comes out that costs a shitload of money? Say, 800k? If you really wanted it, you could afford it, because your charm can become money at 95% rate. However, at 66-odd return, you'd be far more likely to not sell your charm. In fact, I can't even envision many scenarios where you would reclaim the plat on the charm (as you noted in your first post, without noticing that it's a good thing).

Quantity in big numbers but low volume isn't always greater than quantity in little numbers with a bigger volume. It would simply make it far less of a time sink for those that have already invested huge amounts of time and plat in to their charms to have an option to move their charm(s) around as they desire.

Literal and direct translation: I would need less money to get the charms I want where I want them. You're calling it a time sink here because noting that the current system is a better plat sink is rather counterproductive to your argument, but them's the breaks.

I guess I don't see the reason in making someone lose 100k to 400k ( eternal and 1.2 ) just to move their charm from one character to another, it's apparent that they've put forth the huge amount of time and dedication to already get their charm, it seems silly to penalize these people even more if they ever wish to have their charm on a different character.

Calling it a penalty is foolish. Is it a penalty that you can't move thaz gear from your main to a twink? What about AAs? There are lots of non-transferable character bonuses. In order for charms to be at all effective as a moneysink, they must not be transferable--if they're transferable, the plat inside isn't sunk.

To sum up: You want a near-refund on your charms--literally, you want to un-sink the money. While I accept that you might not see how disastrous that'd be for the economy, it doesn't make it a good idea, I'm afraid. Some good will come of this thread--I'd imagine a credit-based turnin system would be likely, at least for going along the direct upgrade path--but you're simply not going to be able to move your charms from one character to another because to do so would break charms' usefulness as a plat sink.
 
Kirin Folken said:
Currently Look at some of those higher end charms (100k-212k ones) and go.... Not if Hell Frozen over would I drop that much PP into a item. Of course my view might change after 300+ AAs and my entire inventory turns into No Drop. But currently the higher end Charms are just one of those items people link from the end end game that everyone drools over but no one has.

Charms aren't supposed to be accessible to every character, especially the 100k and up ones. In all honesty, saying that you would never spend that much plat on an item is kinda dumb, since the whole point of charms is to provide endgame players with something to spend plat on. At the point where you have 100 or 200 thousand platinum sitting in the bank, are you really going to worry about how many Butcher's Aprons you could buy instead?
 
I find it extremely unlikely and a rare circumstance that any player would sell their charm in order to buy droppable loot. At the point when you buy an expensive charm (36k+) you've pretty much already bought all of the droppable items you could use and you're just saving up a ton of money in order to get smaller returns for your plat. An 800k item isn't going to come out, the charm is the 800k item.

That said, if you want it to be a complete moneysink with no holes, the trading up system that keeps getting mentioned sounds pretty nice. You wouldn't be able to transfer between characters, but I don't see that as a major problem.
 
Would I like to move Zhak's charm to Podge? Sure, but it's not feasable, even if there's a 60k loss, or a 100k loss.. it's stupid for me to just throw away money ( not to mention that there'd be another loss with selling podge's charm and would easily push the triple digit mark ). Coming from someone who has farmed over and over, yea it'd simply be nice to be able to move a charm from one char to another with a small loss of platinum, it's never going to happen with an 80% return or with the current return rate.

I'm not going to debate with Thinkmeats, if someone wants to rebuttle his posts, great.

Having a credit system to the person who bought the charm when they trade it back in so the progression of charms isn't as slow as it currently is would be a good place to start.
 
Zhak said:
...Having a credit system to the person who bought the charm when they trade it back in so the progression of charms isn't as slow as it currently is would be a good place to start.


Agreed, Please and thank you.
:dance: :dance:
 
There's pretty much two reasons I can think of to keep charms as "tradeable" between characters:

1 - Guild charms can be returned to the Guild if the person who owns it leaves/quits. This is already done at a penalty, and I think the current system is fair.

2 - You want to give the charm to your alt/bot. This can already be done at a penalty, and I think the current system is fair.

Other than that the only thing having a charms tradeable does is encourage players looking to buy high level charms to necro other peoples' charms to help fund their own: which is something I don't think the sale system should be changed to encourage.

However, I agree the penalty is far too steep for someone looking to upgrade their current charm. As compared to when charms were not no drop, you would lose ~8% on your charm upgrade: as calculated for selling your 215k for 200k, which was the fair going price. Going from 36k to 215k to 550k to 1.2 million assuming an 8% return loss gives a total loss of 64080 on your way up. Going from 36 to 215k to 550k to 1.2M with the current loss (40%) = 320400; approximately 5 times as much.

Given those numbers, it's easy to see why some people would forgo their 215k entirely if they felt they could make it to the 550k.

I'm on board with anything that would reduce the penalty for someone looking to upgrade their current charm, but I would disagree with anything that would make charms more tradeable.
 
100% trade in value (as a no drop token and not money). Money is permanently gone and the player has a fair shot at upgrading. It's win/win really.
 
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