Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
volvov2 said:
Of course, some of you SKs seem equally adamant in not understanding that even if what you say is true and not exaggerated the fix would still not be "add AE aggro to SKs".
Surge of Enfeeblement
- Thread starter volvov2
- Start date
Of course, some of you SKs seem equally adamant in not understanding that even if what you say is true and not exaggerated the fix would still not be "add AE aggro to SKs".
Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
Thinkmeats said:I can't help but keep coming back to trying to figure out ways to make the pet useful. It just bugs me when something that conspicuous is so worthless. I've been toying lately with the idea of trying to find a way to make the sk pet into a suicide bomb of some kind. Some sorta pet-proc spell that kills the pet when it goes off combined with the natural 2 minute recast on pets. Idk. It's dumb and I'll probably never actually put it live, I just can't help but think about it when SK balance comes upsyduck:
Is thier a way to make SK pets generate Hate for the SK? I know thiers a Displine for Bst to fiddle with aggro of thier pets.
I like the idea of the suicide bomb pet for Sks
Sounds intersting... prehaps make it a suicide AoE Lifetap. Pet blows up and nails everything in a Radius with a Life tap. All friendly characters within the raidus receive the hips the lifetap drained.heck could make it an ability of th pet when it dies for SK. So you can ether get the AoE if something kills the pet or have the pet attack something and hit "get lost" causeing the pet to explode.
Just a thought....
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
volvov2 said:
Not really. If you have a problem that you think AE aggro would fix, you're only wrong about the latter--if there's a problem, we'll still want to fix it.
Mythryn said:
Go away with that shit.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Thinkmeats said:
Said problem has been pointed out in this thread multiple times, yet we're the ones who don't understand? Here, go ahead and do something unneeded and call it a 'fix'.
Currently, the only thing that separates Paladins and Shadow Knights from a tanking standpoint (and their key usefulness on raids) is Loathing Guard, the 10% Shadow Knights 10% mitigation stance, that lasts for ~2 minutes 30 seconds. That's it. SKs are better tanks for all of 2 and a half minutes. Meanwhile, Paladins are doing more DPS, healing the raid (which can be considered a counterpoint to SKs Vortex of Death, in a way) tanking as well as a Shadow Knight 95% of the time, and keeping prodigious amounts of agro on a given number of mobs. Now, I'll probably be called silly or say my argument has no point again, but I think that's just a tad out of whack.
It's been noted by members of staff time and time again that SKs are the 'masters of agro' yet we have no true form of AE agro. Oh yep, we have the awesome Wave of Enfeeblement and Word of Spirit spells, that generate a combined ~80 agro. Woo. Hoo. We get an agro style because we're 'the masters of agro', while Paladins get TWO agro styles, one of which is also their tanking style, the other grants an awesome 300 agro AE proc, and lasts for quite a while. So not only are we limited to one form of agro, we have less ways of obtaining said agro than a DPS-Tank hybrid, and can be outtanked.
Currently, the highest form of pure agro for a Paladin is Word of the Crusader (63), which puts out about 457 agro or so, costs 305 mana and has a 32 second recast. In light of the obvious imbalance between Shadow Knights and Paladins (if you can't see it you're completely blind, or haven't played in months/years) I would like to see Shadow Knights get a level 61 spell along the same lines, with higher raw agro generation, comparable mana cost, and a target based recast of ~2-5 minutes, (it would work just like Assault of Shadows, places a debuff on the mob that can't overwrite itself).
To recap, Paladins tank jbetter than SKs after 2 minutes, have more options for agro, do much more DPS, and half their options for AE agro are extremely beneficial to their groups. Yet we're so out of line for asking (repeatedly) for something that wouldn't cause a nerf to another class? I guess thats silly and nonsensical.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Mythryn said:
Yes you are, Captain Comprehension. I bet your shit would be fixed with wizard AEs, too, but that's about as likely to happen. AE aggro is an out-of-class ability that's not going to show up on SKs anyday soon. Alternate solutions, such as reactive procs, might. Please understand this point because I really don't like having to repeat myself a ton of times.
Dzillon
Dalayan Master
The DS aggro was pretty cool idea, too bad it's not doable. Otherwise what you're all asking (besides upper NEC AE spells for SK) is trampling on the Pallies. But I'm probably among the rare people to think unresistible terror is more reliable than low magic resist adjustment.
Also the 2.30 mn of better tanking mentioned here - if it's that long - makes a good enough difference to me , even on a long fightsyduck:
and some also too often take their wishes as granted.
Also the 2.30 mn of better tanking mentioned here - if it's that long - makes a good enough difference to me , even on a long fight
syduck:Care to share how you know of the exact aggro numbers ? Sounds like some people just have better insight I suppose
and some also too often take their wishes as granted.
Daelius
Dalayan Adventurer
as a paladin, i agree that adding ae aggro to sk's is stomping on our territory. However, I also agree that there needs to be a real tradeoff since single target aggro for both classes is ~even, with sk's having a very slight edge just with unresistable hate.
I like the idea of truly making SK's a better tank than paladins, with more natural mitigation if possible, but not as much as a warrior. Another solution would be to decrease the stamina usage of Wall of Fright, making it last for more than 2.5 minutes, maybe closer to 4-5. In the end, if the role of the paladin is 3rd tank/aoe tank, then sk's need to be a noticeably better tank to clearly define their role as the second best tank
I like the idea of truly making SK's a better tank than paladins, with more natural mitigation if possible, but not as much as a warrior. Another solution would be to decrease the stamina usage of Wall of Fright, making it last for more than 2.5 minutes, maybe closer to 4-5. In the end, if the role of the paladin is 3rd tank/aoe tank, then sk's need to be a noticeably better tank to clearly define their role as the second best tank
Finny
Dalayan Adventurer
I think Jose sums it up pretty well. However, one thing Jose didn't mention, probably because Forsaken never really had a paladin on raids, is that not only are they able to keep agro on several mobs the best, but they can keep agro on single targets almost just as well. When Kaloft was still playing he was able to pull agro off of me if he tried and also able to generate/hold hate from raid trash starting from the pull (we would frequently have agro fights on trash in Thaz for fun) and he would end up having agro just less than 50% of the time. I don't think anything has changed in agro since then so I would assume this was still the case.
Just an aside on the whole agro topic: warrior taunt is really really really good. Thizik / Woldaff know what im talking about.
Yep, thanks Daedeus for giving the paladin's perspective.Daelius said:
Just an aside on the whole agro topic: warrior taunt is really really really good. Thizik / Woldaff know what im talking about.
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
Daelius said:
Finny said:
First page, post 5 or so
. And yes, I consider myself as an active paladin. Manluas said:
To reiterate:
Giving SK's some sort of minor AE Aggro (not even sustainable, just some sort of "oh snap" option) wouldn't really mess with the paladin ability. Also, lets not forget that while blind is resistable it's not the only option for aggro, there is like single blind, AE blind, AE stun, single stun, AA stun, GHot and some others. And I have to agree with Jose - the revisited tankstyle is badass albeit not overpowered if you ask me.
I don't know if there is really a good way to give SK's an unique aggro feature, maybe some group-/raidrecourse that gives the SK some aggro w/e a toon does something towards the mob that has the spell on it. Dunno if that's possible or feasible, just throwing ideas around.
volvov2
Dalayan Adventurer
Daelius said:
What IS the Shadowknights territory then? Are we the best tanks minus warriors? No. Do we have AE aggro and heals? No. Do we pull the best? No (its arguable but monks are still #1). There is nothing SKs are good at that no other class can do better.
The fucking unresistable hate is a bullshit reason to say we can hold aggro "better", there is ONE fight in the entire game (that I know of) that is untankable by a warrior or paladin. When Gonobn and Volkov fight for aggro, Gonobn wins.