Surge of Enfeeblement

volvov2

volvov2

Dalayan Adventurer
In the world of SKs, we are not AE aggro masters, we have very little AE aggro generation. In fact we have 3 spells: Wave of Enfeeblement (level 30 decrease str by 16), Word of Spirit (level 49 decrease HP by 103), and finally Shout of Agony [level 60 raid dropped spell that has a 33(?) minute recast that stuns for 18 seconds, 104 damage (note this spell is useable by all casters]). If you have been in Thazeran's Tower long enough, you might be blessed enough to get the SK specific BP which has a reactive proc that gives 110 AE aggro (its easily resisted I might add). I would like to see that the necro only spell "Surge of Enfeeblement" be given to SKs as well, probably around level 51-59. As it currently stands Paladins are the kings of aggro, and from what I've seen throughout the tiers, Paladins will always have that area dominated, not to mention that while SK's are supposedly the kings of single target aggro, Paladins hold aggro on one target just fine as well.

I think its kind of silly that I have to rely on a level 30 spell at not only level 65, but at the tier I'm currently at, with Shout of Agony being that "Oh shit" spell that I use if I deem necessary. If anyone has any better ideas, I'm all ears, but I don't expect any miracle ideas that would take the paladins role down a notch.

Thanks for reading, please keep comments constructive and not insulting.
 
I of course, wholeheartedly agree with Volkov's statement. I'll also add that Wave of Enfeeblement and Word of Spirit are very resistable, and Wave of Enfeeblement only adds agro the first time its used (same with all debuffs), so Wave of Enfeeblement is only useful every four minutes, and the agro is very minor. I personally would like to see us get all three of the 'Word of' AE spells that Necromancers get (Spirit, Souls, Shadow), as well as some sort of short duration ATK or AC debuff. I have to reiterate what Volkov said about Shout of Agony, as well. It's a GREAT spell in certain emergency situations, but it's only ~380 agro or so, a bit less than the Paladin AEs, Word of the Crusader and Wave of Might (which people say doesn't exist), both of which are 8 second stuns with a 201 damage component.

I believe that the classes would be balanced in AE agro even with these changes. Paladin AE stuns are good agro, with a long stun (which means the mobs aren't hitting them, or anyone else at all, a huge, HUGE plus), with a medium recast, usually 25-48 seconds. The current SK staple AE agro is low agro, low recast, but has the above mentioned four minute point of uselessness. Stuns share that to a point, with stun mitigation, but the mobs still gain the agro towards the player, just like undead/stun immune mobs. With adding the 'Word of' spells, preferably at 39 and 59 (Word of Spirit is attained at 49), would be low agro (roughly 1/3 of the damage done), with a 9 second recast.

As it stands, Paladins don't have problems with agro, except on mobs with high, high MR (the resist that can be debuffed the most), they have a huge assortment of agro spells, both single target and AE, while SKs have no problems on single target agro, but are easily surpassed by Rangers and Bards in the field of AE agro, due to the lack of tools available to them.

Or, possibly much more simple and inline with the SK class, turn Terror of Sivyana into a dropped spell, with a hefty recast, similar to Paladin AEs (25-48 seconds, maybe even 60 seconds.)
 
Forgive me if i'm wrong, but on a single target, won't an equally geared shadowknight tank better than a paladin? forgetting about aggro for a second, SK's iirc have better mitigation than paladins (it might just be the stance). Also, sk's get unresistable single target aggro while paladins can be resisted. From what i understand, paladins are meant to be that "oh shit an add" tank because they can aoe them towards themselves.

Paladins don't really have any aoe aggro until the later levels. The only real aoe aggro generation that paladins have below 61 is group HoTs. So from the information given to me, sk's actually have an andvantage on lower level aoe aggro than paladins. In the end, i'm against giving sk's more aoe aggro. I think it does really infringe on the paladin's role as the aoe master.

Also, wave of might doesn't exist...
 
I also have to agree with Volkov.

While Shadowknights have really good aggro for single targets, its nearly impossible to get aggro on multiple mobs that are stacked on top of each other when all we have is one or two little aggro spells. As nice as it would be to have, I wouldn't really want something on the same level as Paladin AEs, but a new AE debuff or maybe just a +aggro AE that does half of what Assault of Shadows does would be really helpful.

Anything to help us beat out the "4 minutes of uselessness" our current AE debuff has.
 
Daelius said:
Forgive me if i'm wrong, but on a single target, won't an equally geared shadowknight tank better than a paladin? forgetting about aggro for a second, SK's iirc have better mitigation than paladins (it might just be the stance). Also, sk's get unresistable single target aggro while paladins can be resisted. From what i understand, paladins are meant to be that "oh shit an add" tank because they can aoe them towards themselves.

Paladins don't really have any aoe aggro until the later levels. The only real aoe aggro generation that paladins have below 61 is group HoTs. So from the information given to me, sk's actually have an andvantage on lower level aoe aggro than paladins. In the end, i'm against giving sk's more aoe aggro. I think it does really infringe on the paladin's role as the aoe master.

Also, wave of might doesn't exist...
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Paladins get AE HoTs (which are very decent agro spells, which also heal, can't be resisted and don't have the stupid 4 minute lockout) at 22, 39, 51, 59 and 64. SKs get Wave of Enfeeblement at level 30, (which is VERY low agro, with a four minute lockout) and Word of Spirit at 39, which is around 30 agro. So no, we don't have any advantage at any level on AE agro versus Paladins. As far as better tanks, yes, we are for an whole 2 and a half minutes. Not very impressive. I already stated that Paladins don't really have huge problems with resists, I've played a 65 paladin, but in the end yes, you would want an SK on a high MR mob, if the Paladin is going to have problems.

EDIT: I'm not going to turn this into a Paladin vs. Shadowknight thread, I was just trying to show you the massive difference in the two classes. I also didn't mean to ask for more than what is balanced, the Terror of Sivyana thing was a joke. I was just suggesting some small things which would help, albeit in a very very minor way. (Word of blahblah spells are around 35-45 agro, hardly anything big, and I personally thing the Enfeeblement spells are terrible forms of agro, due to the fact that it has a long duration.
 
Mythryn said:
Or, possibly much more simple and inline with the SK class, turn Terror of Sivyana into a dropped spell, with a hefty recast, similar to Paladin AEs (25-48 seconds, maybe even 60 seconds.)
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Yummy. If this would happen I think I would be a very happy SK!
 
Sounds like a valid request, if it can make SKs happy why not addin Surge & late 'Words of' spells ? No resist adjust wouldn't unbalance anything compared to palading really.

and Wave of Enfeeblement only adds agro the first time its used (same with all debuffs)
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Something I always wondered. OK for debuffs ; what about slow ? I've been told repetitive slows was adding aggro.

Wave of Might is iirc used by a Prison mini named. Should not even be listed as a 65 pally spell except fo making them drool.

Terror of Syviana is a proc I suppose ? indeed gogo overpowered if it was made a spell :toot:
 
I agree with volkov really...
About Paladin & SK aggro i would like to add something..
I will pick an exemple in a certain raid context without giving spoiler or anything.

OK, so now imagine.

The Named Spawn XXX add like 4 or 5. The paladin is Getting Aggro on all of them but the SK have to pick one & tank so the Dps focus on the one tanked by the SK.And this for XXXX waves.
Since i really get tired of my aggro getting ping pong with wizard & such. I dont hesitate to use each wave a differant trick to get aggro more easily.
Leech touch
Improved Harm touch
Versikol legs clicky + AA hate + nuke
SoA.
when all those trick re down..
Yay enjoy spamming like hell to get aggro out of the pally..
It's Really annoying to have to use at least 2 / 3 Spell or 4 if the paladin isnt slacking to get aggro of the Paladin AE Spell......


My full aggro spell set is
Deflux
Terror of Kaezul
SoA
Terror of ( i forgot )
ATK Debuff
Curse of years
Shroud of Nightmare
FD or DD nuke.

On Eqlive . the Snare was main aggro for SK. the cast time & mana cost is too hugh to chain use it on Multiple target in SoD.
Also Shroud of nightmare is Awesome spell / Boost & Big big aggro. But it get resisted pretty often, same Deal with Curse of years.

I would like also to know if is it possible to boost up the Hate generated by Terror spell.
When the spell were designed at start people werent Geared & AAed like nowadays. Compare the amount of aggro that generate a High end AAed & geared Ranger / Bst / & others by Highend geared 1,5 years ago?
I did a lot of duo with my cleric & eleonor.
And believe me when i play my cleric in full Battle mod , i really have to focus hard Keeping aggro on eleonor or Zaira would outaggro so easily.


i think there could be two main idea to give SK some tools to keep aggro on multiples targets.
Give em some sort of AE like people suggested
Or maybe Make Shroud of nightmare & curse of years unresistable since they are very good aggro.

so SK wont step into paladin's Ae land and will have to build aggro on target One per one but with efficiency and quickness.
 
I'd completely forget about AE aggro if Curse of Years and Shroud of Nightmare were unresistable. Comparatively, they take ALOT of mana to cast but at least you know that you have enough aggro to cast Terror spells on your mobs before they run off to the cleric or wizard etc.

Curse of Years
Classes: SHD(63)
Mana cost: 320 Range: 200 Spell skill: Alteration
Cast time: 4 seconds AE radius: 0 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time: 6 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: 0
Duration: 60 ticks Target type: All Restrictions: none
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Shroud of Nightmares
Classes: SHD(63)
Mana cost: 285 Range: 200 Spell skill: Alteration
Cast time: 3 seconds AE radius: 0 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time: 6 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: 0
Duration: 60 ticks Target type: All Restrictions: none
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As compared to say, Paladin AE Blind which produces plenty of initial snap aggro:
Wave of Light
Classes: PAL(62)
Mana cost: 145 Range: 0 Spell skill: Divination
Cast time: 1 seconds AE radius: 60 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time: 25 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: -75
Duration: 2 ticks Target type: Point Blank AoE Restrictions: none
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Followed by their stun which is about the same cost as the SK spells:
Word of the Crusader
Classes: PAL(63)
Mana cost: 305 Range: 0 Spell skill: Evocation
Cast time: 2 seconds AE radius: 25 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time: 32 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: 0
Duration: N/A Target type: Point Blank AoE Restrictions: none
Click to expand...


They also have considerably less cast time than the SK spells, which is perfectly fine. Paladins are supposed to be the best at AE aggro and I wouldn't want to change that, but allowing SKs a feeble chance at keeping aggro on multiple mobs at the same time would be nice as well.
 
Thats why I strictly use the Terror line to hold aggro, all of the debuffs that an SK gets have no resist mod on it, so they are resisted nearly 85% of the time on raids and even alot on XP mobs.
 
volvov2 said:
Thats why I strictly use the Terror line to hold aggro, all of the debuffs that an SK gets have no resist mod on it, so they are resisted nearly 85% of the time on raids and even alot on XP mobs.
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They also don't generate the agro of the Terror line. Per Wiz, the maximum agro a debuff can generate is something like 350 agro.
 
Mythryn said:
They also don't generate the agro of the Terror line. Per Wiz, the maximum agro a debuff can generate is something like 350 agro.
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I actually find that hard to believe. Anyways, all SK taps suck for reliably getting aggro on a mob compared to the terror line, hence they are all pretty much worthless.
 
volvov2 said:
Thats why I strictly use the Terror line to hold aggro, all of the debuffs that an SK gets have no resist mod on it, so they are resisted nearly 85% of the time on raids and even alot on XP mobs.
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Very true, I can't even use the spells in Sorc's Lab ffs.
 
Actually the "Words of" line is minor aggro at best.

It would by no means take away that much from paladins since they have pretty decent single target aggro (Not to mention the AE aggro spells - save heals - can also be used to aggro 1 mob), thus it'd only be fair to give SK's a small AE aggro tool.


Also, I happen to box Necro/Pally - it's really not stepping on paladin territory and most likely something that'd just be a sort of convenience fix.
 
Manluas said:
Actually the "Words of" line is minor aggro at best.

It would by no means take away that much from paladins since they have pretty decent single target aggro (Not to mention the AE aggro spells - save heals - can also be used to aggro 1 mob), thus it'd only be fair to give SK's a small AE aggro tool.


Also, I happen to box Necro/Pally - it's really not stepping on paladin territory and most likely something that'd just be a sort of convenience fix.
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It wouldn't really be a fix, just a band-aid, and that's why I suggested it, since I don't really have any other decent ideas, save an AE AC or ATK debuff with a very short duration, or a raw AE agro spell with a recast.
 
Mythryn said:
It wouldn't really be a fix, just a band-aid, and that's why I suggested it, since I don't really have any other decent ideas, save an AE AC or ATK debuff with a very short duration, or a raw AE agro spell with a recast.
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Yea, thats pretty much what I think as well, I was hoping someone would come up with an uber brainstorm idea. But I guess theres no way to fix it really, just make it less worse.
 
So what about you take the "Word of" line and scratch NEC from it? I don't know about others but I think I have used those spells like thrice, maybe less.

Without a parser and from top of my head the following:

Make one ~level 45 (SK), the other 64 (SK). AE ATK tap, small resist mod on both (level appropriate obv, again I do not have a parser to come up with serious numbers atm), recast ~45ish secs. Aggro generation ~ 1/2 of what the (level-)equivalent of paladin spells do.


I'm not sure how this would actually play out ingame, nor do I know how other pallies and/or Necros would react to this. But aside the fact that I'd kill to have some sort of useful AE on my necro I wouldn't mind a meanlike change.
 
volvov2 said:
Yea, thats pretty much what I think as well, I was hoping someone would come up with an uber brainstorm idea. But I guess theres no way to fix it really, just make it less worse.
Click to expand...

Now I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to make the SK pet generate bigass buckets of aggro for the SK somehow :tinfoil:
 
Marlow's Whisper
Classes: SHD(63)
Mana cost: 300 Range: 0 Spell skill: Alteration
Cast time: 2.5 seconds AE radius: 20 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time: 30 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: -25
Duration: 6 ticks (36 seconds) Target type: Point Blank AoE Restrictions:
Effect: Increase Hate by 180
Decrease Movement Speed by 25%
Decrease Hitpoints by 55 per tick

Or

Effect: Increase Hate by 150
Decrease AC by 25
Decrease Decrease Attack by 25
 
Thinkmeats said:
Now I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to make the SK pet generate bigass buckets of aggro for the SK somehow :tinfoil:
Click to expand...

Could give SKs a unique familiar-type pet with an agro buff, other than that IDK! :psyduck:
 
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