Something NEW: Character Stacking Synergies
- Thread starter phroggonalog
- Start date
phroggonalog
Dalayan Master
stepping on the toes of enchanters' shared mind a little bit i think but ill include it anyway cool idea!!
I like the idea of ranger arrows reducing mob accuracy A+ but put it in an easy copy/paste format so i dont have to do much work!!
also 2-3 rogues would simply get get more PLAT not ITEMS to drop which is LOL but seriously they are rogues it should already be an implemented mechanic and if some nerfing is in order for it to get put in i am all for it (such as zaela's -% accuracy or my accidental backstab/knockback ideas)
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phroggonalog
Dalayan Master
nerfs, nerfs everywhere
no you're right this thread is about IDEAS not about scapegoats so right on let's get more ideas (incentives/penalties alike)
Loxo
Dalayan Elder
Maybe this mechanic was removed, or I just plain imagined it, but after raids went to 18 max, and the class diversity bonus was added, the third of any class in a raid only performed at 75% effectiveness, and the 4th of any class in a raid was rendered null. I had never been on a raid with four of any class until some less than organized pugging last year, when I found out the nulled class randomly hits each of the four, instead of the last to join / load into a zone. If this is also how the 75% mechanic works, maybe this is why no one ever really notices the 75% thing for the third of any class; if it's still a mechanic.
Necromancer Ideas:
I think necro synergy was implemented a long time ago, with a pretty incredible effect: DoT Weakening
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phroggonalog
Dalayan Master
Do you think it's a cool idea?
Make incentives for bringing more than one mage and disincentives to bringing more than one of whatever class is felt to be overstacked, theoretically freeing up slots to throw in that extra mage (or at least making people less hesitant to drop a 3rd rogue or something along those lines). Short of doing that, I can't see these changes affecting current class stacking. And I can't see what I just said getting added without a rather large backlash due to the necessary penalizations that would have to get implemented to even theoretically make it work. Otherwise its really just a "hey wouldn't it be cool if..." thread imo.
And theres definitely some merit to the coolness of the general idea. What if it wasn't as commonplace for raids to carry 3 clerics and just 1 shaman for example.
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Aren't these ideas (if introduced) just going to reduce raid diversity?
If your 18th slot in the raid is to go to say a single mage or a third whatever then it will be goodbye mage because we want the stacking benefits having the third of the whatever class will bring.
If your 18th slot in the raid is to go to say a single mage or a third whatever then it will be goodbye mage because we want the stacking benefits having the third of the whatever class will bring.
Cinn
Banned Jerk
While I understand the appeal of thinking up new and potentially exciting abilities to give players, there simply is not a need for this.
For as long as I can remember the only thing that has mattered to players on this server has been killing dragons with the least amount of brain power required possible.
Players do not want to think. They do not want to struggle. They do not want to work. What they want is loot. Loot that will make them Bigger, Stronger, and most importantly increase their hitpoints and mana on their all important Fomelo.
You are in the minority, and even within this minority you will succumb to the inevitable execution of suboptimal strats that even the most disgusting shoe-lickers and paste-eaters can comprehend and execute.
Why do you do this?
Because wiping in this game isn't fun. Ohhhh boy is it not fun. Not only is it not fun but it is the single most time consuming factor on any raid against new, untested and unspoiled content.
You will spend more time dying. waiting to be rezzed. having your client crash. waiting for 18 players to be in the zone. Buffing these 18 players. Talking about stupid irrelevant shit in vent that has no relation to the game you wish you could be playing but you aren't playing because you died 20 minutes ago and two key members of your raid are now afk or some shit who really knows than you will actually killing anything in Shards of Dalaya Raid Zone.
Wipes take time. Lot's of time.
Time that if you just knew the strat...
Time that if you just had the right raid composition...
Time that if you knew for sure this would work... things might not be so bad.
---
Unspoiled content. What is this?
a myth.
a myth that only 18-25 people on the server at any given time ever have to experience. And you should be grateful.
18-25 people... if you're lucky enough to have an active raid roster of this size.
The cycle of guild life and death on this server, combined with the rabid incest and sister-fucking that takes place during every guild creation and rebirth due to low population numbers is the perfect storm of conditions for what I have been talking about this entire time, which up until now you might think has been off topic but which I will summarize below.
Everyone inevitably gets leaked strats from one place or another.
No one wants to wipe. Because wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
Once a strat has been executed once and victory achieved no one wants to try anything else. Because you might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
If you alter previous class makeup you might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
If you do not use the same strat or class composition that you heard <Super Guild X> used, you might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
And even then. Even if you wanted to try a new class composition. Even if you wanted to try stacking 3 mages or reduce cleric numbers in favor of shamans or any other possible combination that you can think of inside your imaginative little nerd-brain the server population numbers and more-so your guild's active raid roster population (in MOST if not ALL of the guilds on this server) do not support it!
The people simply aren't there.
----
So what does this mean in the end for the main suggestion of this thread?
It's bad. Not only is it bad but if anything like this went in today all you would be doing is Giving Players More for Nothing.
The guilds would still use the same 18 people, because for most guilds that's all they have and for quite a few guilds they'd be lucky to even have that.
Those 18 people would now be getting "Class stacking bonuses or penalties" just for doing what they've already been doing this entire time, using the same active players they have available to raid and using the same hand me down strats for years and years.
and on-top of all of these extremely valid points there is the overwhelming fact that you can already stack any of the classes and succeed in a raid situation.
The world doesn't end if you have two enchanters in your raid. In-fact two enchanters in your raid would be amazing.
But no one tries it. Because they aren't sure if it would work. And they might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting loot.
-----
What should happen?
Address downtime.
Make it less penalizing for players to experiment and in turn make it more fun for players to be creative.
As it stands now it is simply not worth it for players to spend hours clearing to an encounter with a new raid composition only to find out that "hey this was a bad idea guess all of our time is wasted."
Encourage and enable players to actually Play.
How should you do that? I guess that's something for the Dev team to think about, but not like this, not like these suggestions.
For as long as I can remember the only thing that has mattered to players on this server has been killing dragons with the least amount of brain power required possible.
Players do not want to think. They do not want to struggle. They do not want to work. What they want is loot. Loot that will make them Bigger, Stronger, and most importantly increase their hitpoints and mana on their all important Fomelo.
You are in the minority, and even within this minority you will succumb to the inevitable execution of suboptimal strats that even the most disgusting shoe-lickers and paste-eaters can comprehend and execute.
Why do you do this?
Because wiping in this game isn't fun. Ohhhh boy is it not fun. Not only is it not fun but it is the single most time consuming factor on any raid against new, untested and unspoiled content.
You will spend more time dying. waiting to be rezzed. having your client crash. waiting for 18 players to be in the zone. Buffing these 18 players. Talking about stupid irrelevant shit in vent that has no relation to the game you wish you could be playing but you aren't playing because you died 20 minutes ago and two key members of your raid are now afk or some shit who really knows than you will actually killing anything in Shards of Dalaya Raid Zone.
Wipes take time. Lot's of time.
Time that if you just knew the strat...
Time that if you just had the right raid composition...
Time that if you knew for sure this would work... things might not be so bad.
---
Unspoiled content. What is this?
a myth.
a myth that only 18-25 people on the server at any given time ever have to experience. And you should be grateful.
18-25 people... if you're lucky enough to have an active raid roster of this size.
The cycle of guild life and death on this server, combined with the rabid incest and sister-fucking that takes place during every guild creation and rebirth due to low population numbers is the perfect storm of conditions for what I have been talking about this entire time, which up until now you might think has been off topic but which I will summarize below.
Everyone inevitably gets leaked strats from one place or another.
No one wants to wipe. Because wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
Once a strat has been executed once and victory achieved no one wants to try anything else. Because you might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
If you alter previous class makeup you might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
If you do not use the same strat or class composition that you heard <Super Guild X> used, you might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting Loot.
And even then. Even if you wanted to try a new class composition. Even if you wanted to try stacking 3 mages or reduce cleric numbers in favor of shamans or any other possible combination that you can think of inside your imaginative little nerd-brain the server population numbers and more-so your guild's active raid roster population (in MOST if not ALL of the guilds on this server) do not support it!
The people simply aren't there.
----
So what does this mean in the end for the main suggestion of this thread?
It's bad. Not only is it bad but if anything like this went in today all you would be doing is Giving Players More for Nothing.
The guilds would still use the same 18 people, because for most guilds that's all they have and for quite a few guilds they'd be lucky to even have that.
Those 18 people would now be getting "Class stacking bonuses or penalties" just for doing what they've already been doing this entire time, using the same active players they have available to raid and using the same hand me down strats for years and years.
and on-top of all of these extremely valid points there is the overwhelming fact that you can already stack any of the classes and succeed in a raid situation.
The world doesn't end if you have two enchanters in your raid. In-fact two enchanters in your raid would be amazing.
But no one tries it. Because they aren't sure if it would work. And they might wipe. And wiping takes time. And that is time spent not getting loot.
-----
What should happen?
Address downtime.
Make it less penalizing for players to experiment and in turn make it more fun for players to be creative.
As it stands now it is simply not worth it for players to spend hours clearing to an encounter with a new raid composition only to find out that "hey this was a bad idea guess all of our time is wasted."
Encourage and enable players to actually Play.
How should you do that? I guess that's something for the Dev team to think about, but not like this, not like these suggestions.
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Prime offender disagrees about changing current raid stacking model. But yea I mean I agree this shouldn't happen, or at least if the goal is what is stated not to go about it like this if at all. If the goal was to offer cool synergy ideas that really don't change balance much in any direction or affect stacking at all, then its successful in that case.
Hey cinn remember when you kicked me out of a cita group because you noticed claw commander was up, because I wasn't GLORAX dps? Do you consider yourself overtier for him yet? Ya know like cw, along with more guilds I'm sure, can and do kill him right? That makes them almost turuj ready right?
Hey cinn remember when you kicked me out of a cita group because you noticed claw commander was up, because I wasn't GLORAX dps? Do you consider yourself overtier for him yet? Ya know like cw, along with more guilds I'm sure, can and do kill him right? That makes them almost turuj ready right?
Cinn
Banned Jerk
Hey X remember when you kicked me out of Y group because you noticed Z mob was up, because I wasn't STANDARD GROUP COMPOSITION?
This happens every day on the server and it's because of people not wanting to wipe and waste tons of time which I thought I made apparent in the gigantic post that I spent a long time constructing to voice my opinion in.
No one wants to waste time. Everyone wants to get loot. People do what they know works. This doesn't mean you should give random bonuses for bringing classes that already work and that would have been there regardless.
As for myself being the "biggest offender" of raid stacking maybe that means I know "way more than you do about any of this" and my opinions contribute more to the thread than the witty quips of a catatonic boot-licker.
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Be that as it may,
Why I support the general spirit of the op was not that you can rebalance things so suddenly you no longer want to bring 3 clerics and 1 shaman so you can 2 and 2 for example, but rather that its not unfathomable to blur the line between those two things. Going about it with that mentality, it wouldn't matter what guilds support what, its more that forming/reforming/recruiting guilds won't feel as strongly to fill the mold that seems to be the standard.
Why I support the general spirit of the op was not that you can rebalance things so suddenly you no longer want to bring 3 clerics and 1 shaman so you can 2 and 2 for example, but rather that its not unfathomable to blur the line between those two things. Going about it with that mentality, it wouldn't matter what guilds support what, its more that forming/reforming/recruiting guilds won't feel as strongly to fill the mold that seems to be the standard.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
wipe recovery really does not take that long for raids... the only time i can see wipes being absolutely brutal (time-wise) is like when you wipe at mistborn or similar deep EF mobs where a wipe means a total reclear. and to address this, even, we have urns and 3 fd classes (one of which can rez without an urn even!). also making wipes even more forgiving is the same thing as giving players more for nothing! i like the idea of class 'synergy' even but i feel that these angles address problems which do not exist.
and speaking as someone who was leader of a guild whose population, i will say, "varied" quite a bit, oftentimes making do is not that big a deal and you just do it. some days you have 3 rogues some days you got no melee dps at all. mob still dies.
and speaking as someone who was leader of a guild whose population, i will say, "varied" quite a bit, oftentimes making do is not that big a deal and you just do it. some days you have 3 rogues some days you got no melee dps at all. mob still dies.
Cinn
Banned Jerk
The ability to recover from a failed attempt and try again being made less time consuming and Giving everyone in the raid additional buffs just for being there which aren't needed, are not the same at all.
I do not disagree with you that wiping in emberflow or abyss is terrible, or that there are ways to make things less terrible (rez urns and FD) but I think everyone who plays this game on a regular basis is just so numb to the fact that everything you do literally takes forever that they just don't see it anymore. Even in a Well-Oiled Machine Super-Guild things sometimes move at snail speed and during this time you are not Playing you are Sitting.
It is because of these things that people do not Experiment more. Can this be fixed? I don't know I do not have the answer to this but that was never my poinT.
The point of my replay is that:
1) you dont need to stack classes
2) if you do stack classes everything is already fine you do not have to give them more.
3) the reason no one experiments with raid makeup is wipe recovery time or just wiping in general because that shit sucks
Idk what I am trying to say is maybe you should all be a little more bi-curious with your raid makeup maybe kiss a monk or two touch a butt etc but hey all of these buffs/nerfs aren't needed everything is already ok 2 Shadowknights can get married in a raid already there isn't any law against it im sure they can even raise an upstanding Dalayan with strong moral fibre and good fomelo stats.
Loxo
Dalayan Elder
In that case, I've got this great idea for discouraging but not eliminating a third class in a raid/group...
phroggonalog
Dalayan Master
this is good criticism and put into pretty good words the doubts i have anyway about this suggestion
however there are a number of rebuttals i have
1) dot weakening
2) aux tanking
3) /shield
4) hots in song bar
5) etc
there already exist a number game mechanics that do not NEED to exist except that they do make things interesting, maybe make certain classes a tad more helpful, and maybe require a bit more thought than the alternative.
conclusion: okay, maybe this idea is in the super rough stages, is not going in the right direction, is unnecessary, or all of the above---but i think there has been a pretty positive response from people, showing that this is at least Interesting and merits a bit of attention (SoD 3.0?). also yes i am leaning heavily upon the Crutch of "it is interesting", but hey that is all ive got!
basically, if this idea comes to fruition even in a form completely different than originally imagined, i think it will be a success.
No, this is the same as having a single Zhak in the raid.