Something NEW: Character Stacking Synergies

Presupposing pr was a problem, I'd find it hard to believe classes got massive upgrades because there weren't any problems other than the perception of class balance being askew.

Perception and skill level of those who play them.

Would YOU want to play the same class as Nathasar and Ochah?

It was just a wild theory, honestly (here comes the hate) in the past 6 months, I saw a mage (langdorn) constnatly out dps a rogue (aemogha) in a BQ group over the series of several BQ groups. By quite a margin. I saw a someone boxing a SK (krugz) hold aggro on 6 mobs on the harder side of kaesora (read: still not very) while typing to me about elaborate sex acts. As for enchanters, I raided with Ravik for quite a few years, and he was good enough at the class that we focused several strats based around his ability to play his class right.

Now i'm not saying that there weren't any problems with these classes, i'm merely saying their population still seems rather low. Could be a lag time effect as anyone who wanted to play a mage back before runic1 (holy shit the dps) existed, said fuck it, and chamred/tomed another class and simply doesn't want to go through the hastle again. However, I still think that the PR of many of these classes is much worse than the capabilites of the class when played by a player who doesn't have both hands down his or her - or someone elses for the matter - pants.

That said, I think clerics suffer from horid PR as well. They are really fucking fun to play on raids and hard 6 man - WHY DONT PEOPLE GET THIS?! Oh wait, it's probably because xping on a cleric is about as fun as watching a llama chew on your balls.
 
"(b.)Fear Of A Different Nature: All ally aggro is increased by 10%. "

Wouldn't there be no discernible effect if all ally aggro was increased by the same amount?

Good call, I mean the intent of this is to give allies the increased chance of crits, but also the increased aggro so it's a you better watch yourself situation
 
Good call, I mean the intent of this is to give allies the increased chance of crits, but also the increased aggro so it's a you better watch yourself situation

Pretty much would make stacking SK's useful for burn fights - not only because they have way superior aggro, but it now means that they don't just cast 2 terrors and afk to jack off, since the rest of the raid now has much more aggro/dps.
 
Chanters suffer from the same issue as SK's, and mages for that matter - there are very very very few decent people who play them; which of course could be a product of the bad PR.

Thats pretty much the case imo. The class had its dark ages where it was not really fun to play and had its slew of issues, but the population of them hasn't really recovered since then. From some of the newer enchanters who have caught up with me in game with questions, I keep a positive outlook on the recovery of this issue.

But yea, as far as raid stacking goes with enchanters:

Shared mind: I think a lot of people think of this primarily for the resists, which don't stack with multiple, but all of the rest of the benefits do stack just by putting the enchanters in different groups.

Debuffs: ok no benefit to having two enchanters here.

Curses: Absolutely no stacking issues here, you just have to cast them a set amount of time apart from each other or they won't land.

vex and super vex (aka runic2): If you have two enchanters with this theres really no excuse not to have it land every time the tank drops too low, making those stupid wipes from healer error pretty much nonexistant.

Gog/aod: One enchanter will never be able to gog/aod everyone that can be. GoG and AoD both give a 32% increase to dps on the target for the duration of it (skewed numbers on AoD depending on the class, and I believe them to be: >32% for wiz due to the nature of wiz crits (assuming there isn't wiz specific code for AoD), 32% for necro, <32% for mage unless that got fixed). Anyways, if you're up against a boss where your main support is dps, one enchanter can keep up at most 6 melees if hes only casting GoG which is way more than any individual melee is putting out for dps. AoD you can keep up 4 targets, which again is more than any individual is putting out. With two enchanters you will still have enough targets to fully take advantage of all of this.

For trash, since you're usually trying to conserve mana unless you're pushing into new content (which btw enchanters are phenomenal for, see above paragraph), you're main goal should be to pull your own weight with dps and if you can keep up 3 GoG's you're doing that. Now if you're NOT pushing into new content, and you're just farming tiers which is most guilds most of the time, there's a decent chance you DON'T need to pop gather on every boss fight which frees you up to keep a more mana draining approach to trash and popping halfway to a boss fight, which means you're DEFINITELY pulling your weight. Thats all tricky though due to med breaks and shit, theres rythm to be found with each guild. Again, totally stacking friendly to having more enchanters.

Rune: If you're in a situation where theres not much reason to do anything but chain rune, having two enchanters is definitely a perk if they can coordinate between themselves well (I wish I didn't dislike raralith too much to try this with him). If you time your runes to land offset from each other, your main tank is receiving a ridiculous dps cut making the healers job retardedly easier on those heavy hitting rape train bosses.

Anyways all of that is from the perspective of a higher end enc, meaning my mana pool and mana regen can or can close to sustain the numbers I'm throwing out here, so this won't be the case for low end enchanters. Lower end its harder to even pull your own weight with gog and such, which also I would imagine contributes to the negative connotation given to enchanters. That said, most of the group stacking probably takes place in the higher end anyways. But if theres legitimate things I'm missing here or if I'm way off factually with numbers or something, I'm open to the idea of being wrong.

Grouping is simple: charm. Two enchanters just means two people to handle broken pets, but the dps is just as good as ever per person.

Edit: Yea totally hijacked, but this bit felt semi relevant to enchanters needing added synergy bonuses.
 
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Perception and skill level of those who play them.

Would YOU want to play the same class as Nathasar and Ochah?

Sure, I don't equate the tool with the user. I'm not really sure why anyone would go man, look at that awesome sword I want one, but that guy is swinging it like a fairy princess with a seizure disorder in a discotheque, I suddenly no longer want a sword.

Now i'm not saying that there weren't any problems with these classes, i'm merely saying their population still seems rather low. Could be a lag time effect as anyone who wanted to play a mage back before runic1 (holy shit the dps) existed, said fuck it, and chamred/tomed another class and simply doesn't want to go through the hastle again. However, I still think that the PR of many of these classes is much worse than the capabilites of the class when played by a player who doesn't have both hands down his or her - or someone elses for the matter - pants.

I know, it probably is (you probably responded while I was still editing and adding, what I said last pretty much echoes that). Time and all that.

I don't think alot of it was really dps woes in mages case tbh (I too love solusek ro, tacotown's meaner hard drinking cousin). Pets rebuffing from soulbonds alone takes away a contributing factor to what was making playing the class a massive pain in the ass to play on a day to day basis.

Shared mind being fixed was no small boon to enchanters either, but I'd imagine their numbers are always going to be kind of low, it's just..how the class is..kinda. Giving their nuke a little boost helped too I'd imagine, as well as making charm not blow (charming with vedoc is the most fun thing ever, if only for the sheer fact it makes everyone really nervous).

That said, I think clerics suffer from horid PR as well. They are really fucking fun to play on raids and hard 6 man - WHY DONT PEOPLE GET THIS?! Oh wait, it's probably because xping on a cleric is about as fun as watching a llama chew on your balls.

Clerics are fun. That being said I really have never seen them getting horrible pr. If anything they constantly get the 'this is the single most powerful and desired class you can pretty much play in this game' treatment. If you enjoy healing, you'll enjoy healing. Only reason I never started one personally is that I've had access to various ones forever.

Thats pretty much the case imo. The class had its dark ages where it was not really fun to play and had its slew of issues, but the population of them hasn't really recovered since then. From some of the newer enchanters who have caught up with me in game with questions, I keep a positive outlook on the recovery of this issue.

Yeah it's going to take a while for that to happen. I don't imagine the class will ever be as popular as some others, but I have seen alot more grouping enchanters when I've played. Which used to be pretty nonexistent. That seems a positive sign.


Also, even shithouse enchanters can be pretty great with control. If you lose them after it breaks, oh well, probably weren't getting a ton more out of them anyways, and you've got the better one still going.

P.S.
We totally fucking hijacked this. Though this is fun too.
 
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Class PR is a fascinating subject guys but I think we should keep this thread on suggestions for synergies because I still am digging the idea!!
 
If there is a cleric one it should probably be not all that good ngl.

I'm really at a loss for the healers on this.

I came up with this so far pretty much

Druids:

Freebasing the Lifestream for fun and profit:

starts at x2

You're no stranger to the pulse of the planet, you feel it in your every step. Every waking moment spent painfully aware of the glorious nature of every living thing around you. After a while, you've just started to rely on all that energy to help give you that little bit of extra edge. Being a living conduit for the land has it's fringe benefits after all. The interesting thing is, as you get more druids together, others start to feel it too.

As druids gather, the natural energies they draw on become a bit more concentrated, and partially accessible to other professions. This manifests in a small increase to mana and stamina conservation.
 
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Premise: Classes get stacked, both in raids and in groups. Some classes (rogues) get stacked far more often than others (enchanters). I see this as an Issue

So if the goal is to address this, I'd say the first step in really addressing it is to first realize that class stacking is a player phenominon utilized for an 'ideal setup' to get something done. Given an ideal world where they have infinite access to any class all equally geared, the people that do this are going to choose whatever setup has the greatest chance of assuring success.

For groups the proposed changes will have absolutely no effect on group stacking by people that currently like to group stack unless the changes made having more of understacked class x better than having more of overstacked class y. But if the change were that big then raiding would have to be rebalanced (which is obviously why you were suggesting slight tweaks).

So, to take this seriously and still try to approach the issue, I'd say you'd probably have to approach this from two angles: grouping vs raiding with very different synnergies. Then, just like zaela's joke (I think) suggestion, figure out what classes are currently overstacked in each and give slight penalties to having more of them (slight so it doesn't drastically affect the average casual player), figure out what classes are understacked in each and give benefits (much less slight here), and in each case make your case for why you feel they could use that tweak.

In other words, to rearrange the demand of classes within the group stacking mentality, the only way to go about it is to change what is in demand. You really have to approach both grouping and raiding with a why is this class overstacked stance. Rather than offering the wide benefits proposed to having 2 of x in a group or raid, I suggest instead to check to see if you are in a raid in which case you get one set of synnergies specialized around raiding, and if you're not but you are in a group you get this second, completely different, group specialized set of synnergies.

With raiding it might be as simple as penalizing having 3 of a class, making people want to switch out one with something else. In actuality, only a handful of guilds have so many people that they're frequently hand picking out the people they're going to bring to something, and instead tend to bring whoever wants to go. So any changes along these lines are going to probably be met with hostility from some people if you go too heavy along the penalization route.

My main point here is what your op is suggesting is just really offering slight perks, and while I really can't deny they'd be cool, I don't see them really addressing what you're trying to address which means they're probably not worth the effort to ever get implemented. If you really wanna see this happen and work, I'd suggest rethinking it out along these lines I could absolutely see it working out to become a very cool feature that could very well do away with class stacking.
 
So if the goal is to address this, I'd say the first step in really addressing it is to first realize that class stacking is a player phenominon utilized for an 'ideal setup' to get something done. Given an ideal world where they have infinite access to any class all equally geared, the people that do this are going to choose whatever setup has the greatest chance of assuring success.

For groups the proposed changes will have absolutely no effect on group stacking by people that currently like to group stack unless the changes made having more of understacked class x better than having more of overstacked class y. But if the change were that big then raiding would have to be rebalanced (which is obviously why you were suggesting slight tweaks).

So, to take this seriously and still try to approach the issue, I'd say you'd probably have to approach this from two angles: grouping vs raiding with very different synnergies. Then, just like zaela's joke (I think) suggestion, figure out what classes are currently overstacked in each and give slight penalties to having more of them (slight so it doesn't drastically affect the average casual player), figure out what classes are understacked in each and give benefits (much less slight here), and in each case make your case for why you feel they could use that tweak.

In other words, to rearrange the demand of classes within the group stacking mentality, the only way to go about it is to change what is in demand. You really have to approach both grouping and raiding with a why is this class overstacked stance. Rather than offering the wide benefits proposed to having 2 of x in a group or raid, I suggest instead to check to see if you are in a raid in which case you get one set of synnergies specialized around raiding, and if you're not but you are in a group you get this second, completely different, group specialized set of synnergies.

With raiding it might be as simple as penalizing having 3 of a class, making people want to switch out one with something else. In actuality, only a handful of guilds have so many people that they're frequently hand picking out the people they're going to bring to something, and instead tend to bring whoever wants to go. So any changes along these lines are going to probably be met with hostility from some people if you go too heavy along the penalization route.

My main point here is what your op is suggesting is just really offering slight perks, and while I really can't deny they'd be cool, I don't see them really addressing what you're trying to address which means they're probably not worth the effort to ever get implemented. If you really wanna see this happen and work, I'd suggest rethinking it out along these lines I could absolutely see it working out to become a very cool feature that could very well do away with class stacking.

Unlike my Staff of the Magi thread, this is something I am not super seriously serious about. Slaariel asked for cool ideas, I think that this idea delivers far more cool than 99% (or 100%) of the other shit that was spouted in /ooc, and I am going to leave it at that. If it happens, awesome! But no I am not taking the additional time to rework this~
 
Hey hey hey now, you go listen to less than sober stral and go rework it.

Cool idea example: I hear that enchanter dispel is terrible, perhaps fix it at some point in time?
 
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THING CLASSES
Bard ideas:


Amplification (Beneficial Songs)

Increase the range of any song multiple bards are playing at once, with the bard having the best instrument mod being the initial values for stats and range, and the increase being X% of the second best instrument mod-having-bard's range. Increases again by X%/2 or X%/3 of the range mod of the bard with the lowest instrument mod.

or

Chorus (Beneficial Songs)

Increase the effect of a random slot (seen as Slot 1, Slot 2, etc, in the parser) of any song multiple bards are playing at once, with the initial value being set by the bard with the best instrument mod, and the second best instrument mod increasing that random slot's effect by X% of what their mod would produce. For a third bard (lowest instrument mod) either randomly boost a second slot, or boost the same slot by a lower percentage than the second best instrument mod.

or maybe

Orchestration (Beneficial Songs)

Any time songs of three different instrument types are effecting players, songs receive an overall bonus to their effect. This bonus increases again for four instrument types, and again for having all instrument types being played.
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It's a neat idea. It kind of seems like it would defeat the class diversity that a particular bonus was put in place to encourage, but it might encourage more pugs and lower tier guilds and groups to go with what's available.
 
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Enchanter ideas:

Mass Confusion

With the mass confusion and expert trickery enchanters are capable of subjecting their foes to, enemies lose their keen for spotting weaknesses amongst the ranks of their attackers. Agro generated by spell casting, or low hitpoints has X% chance of being ignored. The chance increases with a third enchanter present.
 
Druids:
Natural Attunement:
Having walked along side the spirits of nature for your entire life, you have become attuned to their ways. As druids commune, your allies become aware of the ways of nature.

2% reduction in cold/fire damage with 2 druids, 4% with 3. Or, 2%/3 or 4% increase in Cold/fire spell damage.
 
I think the rangers effect should make mobs miss attacks due to the large amount of arrows being fired. The mob goes to hit and gets plugged with an arrow in the face/arm/leg etc causing him to miss. But thats kinda similar to the warrior effect, which I would change to +casting/melee haste for the raid and a +atk modifier. Kind of like Warcry but passive.

And 3 rogues get more loot to drop? The way it is now isn't if you have a wide variety of every class you get triple loot etc? I really like the alternative suggestions though, made me lol.
 
does anyone have any ideas for discouraging a raid from bringing 3 clerics?

Hospital Tent
Having tripped over each others' toes long enough despite the use (or because of the non-use) of healing macros, the clerics have finally had it: all those seeking medical attention in a group/raid must wait in line for heals, and upon arrival at the Tent (area with radius X which the 3 clerics must stay within), those receiving "heals" have a 5% risk of incurring "amputation", resulting in a corresponding loss of HP, Mana, ATK, Skill Cap, primary OR secondary slot (as well as legs slot, wrist slots, ring slots, arms slot, head).
 
It would probably be a nightmare to code or maybe even impossible but you could do something like:

If there is only 1 cleric in the raid, every druid/shaman over 1 gains X% to healing abilities.

This could help a lot of guilds who struggle with boxing clerics all the time by allowing extra shamans/druids to take on the healing load.

I don't think it would be necessary to give druids and shamans extra healing relative to the number of clerics; you could probably give just synergistic bonuses for having multiple druids or shamans, and penalties for having multiple clerics.

A raid pretty much needs 5 or 6 healers, which usually means 3 clerics, 1 druid and 1 or 2 shamans, but if there were penalties on multiple clerics to discourage bringing more than 1 or 2, then guilds would just be forced to bring more druids or shamans.

That way, a guild could bring maybe 2 of each healing class, the druids and shamans would get some kind of synergy, and there would be less penalty for bringing multiple clerics.
 
does anyone have any ideas for discouraging a raid from bringing 3 clerics?

Schism
Being concerned with the dispute about the gods clerics have with their fellow clerics during downtime, they aren't quite as focused as they should be. For every cleric above 1 in the raid, all clerics get a 5% increased chance to fizzle any spell they try to cast.
 
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