Smoothing Caster DPS

[Zaela]

It would depend on the target and whether their effective resist is higher than the native resist adjust of the spell. But to take Caress of Sivyana against the target from my big mathy post:

DoT Portion:
Focuses: 498*1.822 = 907
Resist adjustment: 907*(1 - 0.1748) = 748

Before crits, and assuming resist value does not change on our target, damage will always be 748 per tick.

With an additional -12 resist adjust the modifier against that target with that resist value would become 0.1468, for 907*(1 - 0.1468) = 773 damage per tick before crits.

Got someone to change the per-rank values of the tome in the meantime; the -4 and -8 and -12 in my last post will be -6 and -12 and -18 upon zoning.

Anyway the general idea of the tome is to make DoT stacking synergistic which I hope would be useful in most situations.

 

[robots]

Personally I would rather this be something that Wizards have to earn, either by reaching a certain level (30 ish), or by unlocking in AA's or tomes, or with an item. Or an item from a quest maybe.

My main concern is that removing all damage resists at lower levels is just making life a bit too easy. This game is already very easy compared to classic EQ. Dying is barely even a minor inconvenience, travel is fast and easy, everyone can two box, good gear is more abundant, there's no lag and not even a LD bug anymore, many spells don't need components, most of the classes are stronger than they were originally with gear on pets, bards dont need to twist songs, etc.. buffs are far more abundant too, anyone can bind almost anywhere with a command, etc..etc..etc..

That's not meant to criticise, I actually prefer most of these conveniences. But I just worry that it's easy to go too far with streamlining and stuff. Remove resists and then you can think, "What's the point in fizzles? All it does is make people spam their spell icon" so those get removed too. Then you could think, "Wouldn't it be better if heals landed on a defensive target so you didn't have to switch targets?" so that gets tweaked in. Before you know it, we are basically playing World of Warcraft but with an ancient engine

Just my 2c.. please don't kill me.



p.s. I also like the having to pay attention element of resists. There's no counterspelling or sympathetic/combo spells that work together or anything like that in this game, so watching for stuff and reacting quickly is one of the few reactionary things this game has. Games that don't have that can get very boring and make people contemplate just macroing combat. We all have our, snare+fear+dots+send-pet type routines to kill mobs and something being resisted is one of only a few mishaps that can happen in combat and make us have to react and adapt.

 

[Silosobi]

This is not specific to wizards - it effects everyone in the game. I also fail to see how this makes things easier. It will not increase dps. It just makes dps more predictable. Roots/snares follow the old system, and certainly can be resisted.

 

[robots]

This is not specific to wizards - it effects everyone in the game.

That's even worse

I also fail to see how this makes things easier. It will not increase dps. It just makes dps more predictable. Roots/snares follow the old system, and certainly can be resisted.

Well because it's just one more thing you don't need to worry about. When things get frantic, landing a nuke can be very important - life and death even. So when you are surrounded by a bunch of mobs and one is on 4%hp, and two are full health, you are thinking, "Ok stay calm, nuke one quick and root two... GO!". Currently when you cast that nuke you need to at least wait and see that it lands before you switch target and cast the roots. With this change, you don't even need to wait and see or think, you just cast knowing that it's going to hit no matter what.

If the number 1 wiz on the server can't see how this makes life easier, then this game is fucked quite frankly.

 

[Rorne]

Well because it's just one more thing you don't need to worry about. When things get frantic, landing a nuke can be very important - life and death even. So when you are surrounded by a bunch of mobs and one is on 4%hp, and two are full health, you are thinking, "Ok stay calm, nuke one quick and root two... GO!". Currently when you cast that nuke you need to at least wait and see that it lands before you switch target and cast the roots. With this change, you don't even need to wait and see or think, you just cast knowing that it's going to hit no matter what.

If the number 1 wiz on the server can't see how this makes life easier, then this game is fucked quite frankly.

Look your example is really bad. I get the essence of what you are saying but I feel like you are formulating an opinion without fully understanding the change. I could just counter and be like yeah well now when you nuke that 4% guy it's going to do less damage per cast so you still have to nuke him twice and that is equally as meaningless a hypothetical.

 

[Drezin]

Ok, Thanks for explaining it in "lay" terms Zae.

Here are my thoughts as being one of the limited # of necros that actually have this tome that has now been changed. For the moment lets forget the fact that I/we (the necros that have it) spent days upon months upon years grinding through tiers to get this tome to a point where you actually feel like a T11+ Necro.

Never did I come across a time where one of my spells was resisted multiple times on a mob and thought to myself, "Gee, Necros are crying out for a way to add -8% resist adjust to their spells. Maybe then my "insert spell here" would land on this mob" No. I simply chose another spell that did land or I knew would land. For example, if a mob is somewhat resistant to poison and cold based spells and resisted caress. I would stop wasting mana on casting caress and use archaic, which most of the time would land due to the -200 resist adjust. Then add Marlow's, Scitter and THEN maybe try land caress again. IF it didn't land again i just accepted the fact that this particular mob wasn't made to have poison land on it and I would move on. The next mob may be a little less resistant to caress and can have at it.

What do I care or what use it to me as a necro that my archaic went from -200 to -208 or my Caress that went from 0 - -8%. The "benefit" is minimal at best. Archaic hardly gets resisted unless the mob is completely immune to cold in which case you just don't use it so the negative resist adjust is pointless. Caress going from 0 to -08% if a mob is moderately resistant to poison or worse isn't going to make a noticeable or worthwhile difference. Scitterpox is just about in the same boat. Marlows... MAYBE and thats a very dubious maybe.

The point is the changes are so little it won't make a difference or fill in any gaps that was missing in the class and because of such insignificant improvements on -resist in no way justifies changing the best thing necros had going for them at end game.

The changes also make strands of life useless since now the runic 1 wont spread you have to KS mages and wizards in your group or raid to get the mana back with spells that take forever to cast. Archaic being the fastest at 3.5s isn't going to do shit since the dmg isn't applied instantly it has to wait for the server tick. Not to mention competing with melee who get finishing blows and hit like fucking blenders.

2 tomes ruined for adding up to -12% resist adjust to my dots?

I mispoke when saying -XX%. it's not percentage at all its just a flat rate per tome?

 

[Rorne]

What do I care or what use it to me as a necro that my archaic went from -200 to -208 or my Caress that went from 0 - -8%. The "benefit" is minimal at best. Archaic hardly gets resisted unless the mob is completely immune to cold in which case you just don't use it so the negative resist adjust is pointless. Caress going from 0 to -08% if a mob is moderately resistant to poison or worse isn't going to make a noticeable or worthwhile difference. Scitterpox is just about in the same boat. Marlows... MAYBE and thats a very dubious maybe.

You're thinking about it in terms of the old system, instead of resists governing whether your DoT lands at all on cast the spell always lands unless the mob is immune to that element type and resists govern how much damage the spells will be doing per tick.

 

[Zaela]

Ok, Thanks for explaining it in "lay" terms Zae.

Here are my thoughts as being one of the limited # of necros that actually have this tome that has now been changed. For the moment lets forget the fact that I/we (the necros that have it) spent days upon months upon years grinding through tiers to get this tome to a point where you actually feel like a T11+ Necro.

Never did I come across a time where one of my spells was resisted multiple times on a mob and thought to myself, "Gee, Necros are crying out for a way to add -8% resist adjust to their spells. Maybe then my "insert spell here" would land on this mob" No. I simply chose another spell that did land or I knew would land. For example, if a mob is somewhat resistant to poison and cold based spells and resisted caress. I would stop wasting mana on casting caress and use archaic, which most of the time would land due to the -200 resist adjust. Then add Marlow's, Scitter and THEN maybe try land caress again. IF it didn't land again i just accepted the fact that this particular mob wasn't made to have poison land on it and I would move on. The next mob may be a little less resistant to caress and can have at it.

What do I care or what use it to me as a necro that my archaic went from -200 to -208 or my Caress that went from 0 - -8%. The "benefit" is minimal at best. Archaic hardly gets resisted unless the mob is completely immune to cold in which case you just don't use it so the negative resist adjust is pointless. Caress going from 0 to -08% if a mob is moderately resistant to poison or worse isn't going to make a noticeable or worthwhile difference. Scitterpox is just about in the same boat. Marlows... MAYBE and thats a very dubious maybe.

The point is the changes are so little it won't make a difference or fill in any gaps that was missing in the class and because of such insignificant improvements on -resist in no way justifies changing the best thing necros had going for them at end game.

The changes also make strands of life useless since now the runic 1 wont spread you have to KS mages and wizards in your group or raid to get the mana back with spells that take forever to cast. Archaic being the fastest at 3.5s isn't going to do shit since the dmg isn't applied instantly it has to wait for the server tick. Not to mention competing with melee who get finishing blows and hit like fucking blenders.

2 tomes ruined for adding up to -12% resist adjust to my dots?

I must ask--do you realize how DoTs have changed due to the subject of this thread at all? Talking about Caress being resisted multiple times makes me think not. It's hard to seriously consider your argument when it seems like you might be arguing from inaccurate, outdated information.

 

[robots]

Look your example is really bad.

No it was a good example.

Look your example is really bad. I get the essence of what you are saying but I feel like you are formulating an opinion without fully understanding the change.

What am I not understanding?

I could just counter and be like yeah well now when you nuke that 4% guy it's going to do less damage per cast so you still have to nuke him twice and that is equally as meaningless a hypothetical.

They are only talking about a small reduction in the size of each spell. So no, one nuke can finish off low health mobs, if it lands. But with this change it is guaranteed to land. Admittedly you still need to pay attention to see that it does enough damage to kill the mob, but it's still a simplification in already very simplified game.

A game I should say, which is pretty much one of the last bastions of games that require some skill. In a genre filled with WoW clones, there aren't many other places to go for a good RPG fix... I know a lot of you hobos only play this game because it's free, but some of us play it because short of me finding some Ultima Online emu server, there is nowhere else I can go to get games with resists and fizzles and an importance on targetting etc.. etc..

 

[Drezin]

so every dot will land now no matter what and its the difference between the resist of the mob and my -resist check that governs how much damage is applied?

 

[Zaela]

so every dot will land now no matter what and its the difference between the resist of the mob and my -resist check that governs how much damage is applied?

Yes.

 

[Drezin]

is there a chance that my dot will do LESS damage than before the change rather than be resisted?

I have -8 resist mod the mob is more or less immune to the spell so my dots do..... fuck all dmg for that element? is that correct?

 

[Zaela]

Yes? I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Say your spell would have had a 10% chance to be fully resisted in the old system, i.e. have its damage reduced by 100%. In the new system, it would instead have a 100% chance to have its damage reduced by 10%.

 

[robots]

is there a chance that my dot will do LESS damage than before the change rather than be resisted?

Yes your spells will do less damage, but they will never be resisted, so your damage over a whole fight will work out at about the same as what it's always been. The point of this is to keep everyones damage about the same, but just make it more steady.

 

[Zaela]

Perhaps a synergistic damage increase with more stacked DoTs rather than synergistic resist adjustments would be a better tome. I'm open to suggestions (that won't be vetoed by Woldaff).

 

[Drezin]

Ok, I understand now. Thank you, Zae.

I personally feel that the changes to the insidious infection tome were unnecessary. The resist thing governing damage is kinda cool but could have been implemented without changing the tome I would think.

Like replace leeching servant. That tome is definitely a piece of shit compared to the other two and everyone would cheer if that was the one replaced by insidious elements

 

[Silosobi]

No it was a good example.

Not really. Just as often as resists make something harder by requiring you cast one more nuke, they make mobs easier by you luckily not getting resisted and killing something faster than usual. I'm not sure how to respond to the difficulty in having to wait and see if a mob died.. I know instantaneously when any spell lands whether a mob dies or not. It is never predictable for a wizard irregardless of this change due to procs, crits, ults, primals, etc.

I do think I see where you are coming from.. but to me kiting 3 mobs, and having to root two and nuke one, is not difficu lt. Give me mobs that dont summon and just barely enough room to cast a nuke, and I can kill as many mobs as my mana pool supports.

The benefit of this change, as you identified, is that caster dps is more predictable. As a caster, one of the worst feelings in this game, is the last few % of a really difficult mob, all your allies are dieing, and just a little more damage will win the fight... and you get resisted 3 times in a row and wipe as a result. You can also get lucky and do way more damage than usual and beat an encounter not on the merit of your skill, but by the luck of your random number generator.


@Drezin, it seems you are also unaware that before they changed your insidious infection tome, it got massively nerfed. The fun necros had with combining herophant's breath, and their two class tomes to do crazy awesome amazing AE dps and fill up the group mana bar was already gone, and because of that it was determined that the tome might as well be changed to something more useful.

Changing it to a pure % dps boost might be a good idea. Overall the effect will be similar, but I think archaic does max damage a lot of the time already, so the % boost would allow it to continue to benefit.

 

[Drezin]

wow.. ok, i guess. I mean i didn't log in for a week or so maybe two now since the LP explosion and stayed away from the forums altogether so i guess i never got to notice it. If i was tossing up whether to play again or not this is certainly the nail in the coffin.

Anyone want a formerly T11 Necro now somewhere probably around T6/7? Fomelo Drezin and PM me if interested.

 

[Nwaij]

Let me start with that I love this change.

One thing that I'd like to see changed is the wizard class tome line "Reclaimed Mana". What this tome does is retutning a percentage of mana spent on spells fully resisted. Now with the new system, full resists don't happen any more (except on immune mobs), so this tome line is rather pointless.

As a replacement, I liked Solosolkis suggestion:

Elemental Intuition:
Each rank of this tome increases the wizards resistances and gives them a small resist modifier for their offensive spells. (Each rank is +10 to all resists and -5 to all resist modifiers)

I think this would be a very good replacement for Reclaiming Mana because it fills a very similar role, and thus people who have put exp into reclaiming mana will probably be happy with the replacement. It also fits very well with the new system of resists. Because of the way resists work, the potency of this tome will vary. Sometimes +40 resist or -20 mod (for doing all 4 ranks) can make a big difference, but the vast majority of the time it will be minimal - and sometimes do nothing). The +resists help a bit with wizards being one of the squishiest classes in the game, and it makes sense that because we are masters of offensive dd sorcery, we might be a bit more resistant to it than your average ranger. The - adjust helps a lot with highly resistant mobs, where wizards are generally pretty lackluster.

 

[donfolstar3]

Changing it to a pure % dps boost might be a good idea. Overall the effect will be similar, but I think archaic does max damage a lot of the time already, so the % boost would allow it to continue to benefit.

Yes. Almost the exact same without punishing spells for having great resist mods or fighting mobs with crap resists. Seems like a winner.