Smoothing Caster DPS

[Rorne]

The issue with making overall resists not increase through the tiers, is that resist gear sets get that much more powerful and "required". Really an issue for another thread though.

Nobody said they shouldn't increase I'm suggesting that they increase more gradually instead of currently where past a point with minimal effort and no loss of other stats you can just roll around at 500. It's actually pretty pertinent to this thread.

 

[Dinadass]

Nobody said they shouldn't increase I'm suggesting that they increase more gradually instead of currently where past a point with minimal effort and no loss of other stats you can just roll around at 500. It's actually pretty pertinent to this thread.

Uh getting 500 to resists in normal gear without using resist augs doesn't even really happen at t12+ does it? There's people in FWF that already have stats below the hidden str cap, so getting 500 resists with "no loss of other stats" isn't really accurate.

 

[sheer1]

if PoT4 was knocked down a bit more so it doesn't just fall into the role MoTS once inhabited it could free up a lot of room for some advancements in the class.

something like this is what was crossing my mind when i asked, but nerfing pot4 for the nth time seems like less of a solution than actually doing something relevant to make another song a better option.

edit: to susvain he means with pot4 and id wager most people can get one or two resists above 500 without stacking gear/buffs too much, though i am not sure for everyone

 

[Rorne]

Also the actual number does not matter you can have 400 providing just as much reduction as 500 assuming in the new model it's equally hard to obtain 400. The problem is that if players can be assumed to be maxing resists out before they are at the end of content then things in all post-500 content have to be balanced with maximum possible reduction in mind which takes away from the whole point of the system and removes the possibility of players being on the advantageous side of a number range. If you spread resist scaling out over all content players won't feel as cheated and devs won't have to cheat as much with oh I want this ae to do 8k but it will always be reduced by 2k anyways so i will just make it base 10k which would just be the new oh I want this ae to do a reliable chunk of damage so I will just make it -400 resist.

 

[Silosobi]

500 is not a cap for resists.

Im having trouble seeing what reducing resist increase across tiers will change other than making resist augs/potions/buffs/stacking resist sets more powerful relevant to a players base resists.

I still cant get over how much I like this change. Resists were always one of the most frustrating part of playing a caster, this will make it so much easier to quickly judge which spelltypes are worth casting and what are not. Just seems like a great thing for everyone.

 

[Rorne]

500 is not a cap for resists.

Sure not technically but unless I missed it somewhere we have no concept of what the effective cap is, I mean if there IS no effect cap and hypothetically you could reach 100% resist rates or whatever % at an unreachable number my point is moot. Alternatively though it could go to, say, 5000 numerically but actual gains could cap out at a fraction of that and if you can reach that number reliably the mitigating system is going to reflect it in an attempt to emulate the damage prevention numbers of the old system and you're still going to have a chunk of the game where you're just rolling with a static % of reduction on your side of things with no ability to eek out an advantage because max mitigation is then the baseline and everything will be constructed around that.

 

[cornelweezy]

this sounds like damage smoothing to me

 

[Obscenitor]

Spell variance, round 2.

 

[Rorne]

Spell variance, round 2.

That is really not the case.

 

[Silosobi]

Spell variance, round 2.

Not the case at all. Seems like the big problem most people had was the inability to parse/bugtest and that would not be recreated here.

The big change I see is that casters can no longer get fucked over by having several resists in a row. Instead, we just always do a bit less damage, but this is almost the opposite of spell variance. Resists randomly make us do 0 or max damage, instead we will always do the same damage for a given encounter, and our dps will be so more more viable.

It also has some implications for player resists, and I think it will be hugely helpful here. I remember in ToT when you stacked FR for fights sometimes if you had bad luck and didnt resist something twice in a row, it could kill you.

The endgame mostly uses unresistible AEs to avoid resist get sets being a strategy, but I think this change would make resistible AEs more viable again since they are less random.

 

[Zaela]

You are fighting Researcher Thek`Rak in spires. His resists are fairly average high-but-not-immune for a raid mob (8, 9, 9, 8, 8 on Bard Jayla's). He's level 69. We'll assume he's suffering from Malosini, Tashania, and just to give Wizards a little advantage, Rangers are keeping Exposure up around the clock.

We'll assume the Wizard has Glyph of Shojar while the Necro has Glyph of Sivyana. We'll assume they have the same Focus/Tome/etc percentile mods on their damage (I'm going with base+82.2% from about 24% damage focus, 9% elemental focus, 250 Specialize Energy/Defense, 20% Codex of Power and no Evocation/Conjuration mods). Less important, but Mana costs will be reduced to ~80.5% from 7% Focus and 250 Specialize Focus/Mind. We'll assume they both have 250 Specialize Focus/Mind, 335 effective CHA and +10 Divination mods. We'll assume they both have 30% base crit chance for the spells they are using (5% inherent + 7% Spell Casting Fury + 6% Fury of Magic/the Arcane + 8% Supreme Charm of Magic + 4% from Tomes). For the Necro this increases their damage by 30% on average. For the Wizard this increases their damage by 45.6% on average because each point of crit is worth +1.52% considering UBs and Primals on average. Justified here:

25% of crits are UBs, 2% of UBs are Primals

Breakdown of a point:
0.75 is *2 = 1.5
0.245 is *4 = 0.98
0.005 is *8 = 0.04
1.5 + 0.98 + 0.04 = 2.52

In our example:
70% are *1 = 70
22.5% are *2 = 45
7.35% are *4 = 29.4
0.15% are *8 = 1.2
70 + 45 + 29.4 + 1.2 = 145.6% average damage; 45.6 / 1.52 = 30


The Wizard is casting Moon Comet, which has a -20 cold adjust, plus -25 from Glyph of Shojar. In the current system, their chance to be fully resisted in our example works out to 12.42%. The chance to be partially resisted is also 12.42% (always approximately equal chance of full or partial for nukes). Partial resists may be anywhere from 1% to 99% reduction with equal chance throughout; we'll consider the average reduction to be 50%, and combined with the full resist chance the reduction on average will be 18.63%.

The average damage per Moon Comet in this instance will be:
Focuses: 2575*1.822 = 4691
Crits: 4691*1.456 = 6830.096
Resists: 6830.096*(1 - 0.1863) = 5557.6491152

Efficiency: 5557.6491152 / 423 [525*0.805] = ~13.13865039


Under the new system it would instead be like this:
Focuses: 2575*1.822 = 4691
Resist adjustment: 4691*(1 - 0.1863) = 3817

Before crits, and assuming resist value does not change on our target, damage will always be 3817
With crits, average damage will be 3817*1.456 = 5557.552

Efficiency: 5557.552 / 423 = ~13.13842080

The new system is slightly off due to having to use a short hand to approximate the averages (can't put decimals into real damage amounts, etc). On the other hand, the new system also has a lower minimum; in the old system, there's always at least a 0.2% chance of being fully resisted and 0.2% chance of being partially resisted (~0.3%), but in the new system the minimal adjustment will be 0. And then there's also casting time saved when something is fully resisted in the old system, which won't happen in the new one.


The Necro is casting Claws of the Chill, which has a -200 cold adjust. In the current system, the chance to be fully resisted in our example works out to 0.23%, the minimum for DoTs (DoTs have an advantage over Nukes even with the same resist values, presumably to make up for no partials).

The average damage per Claws of the Chill in this instance will be:
Focuses: (645*4)*1.822 = 4700
Crits: 4700*1.3 = 6110
Resists: 6110 *(1 - 0.0023) = 6095.947

Efficiency: 6095.947 / 387 [480*0.805] = ~15.75180103


Under the new system it would instead be like this:
Focuses: 645*1.822 = 1175
Resist adjustment: 1175*(1 - 0) = 1175

Before crits, and assuming resist value does not change on our target, damage will always be 1175 per tick.
After crits, average damage per cast will be (1175*4)*1.3 = 6110

Efficiency: 6110 / 387 = ~15.78811369

There's a slight improvement here because the minimum 0.23% resist chance is not preserved in the new system. The new minimum is 0. However, the 0.23% chance to be resisted in the current system is so low we may as well consider them equal except in freakishly rare cases when it gets resisted once in the course of the fight.

If our target in this instance had no cold resist debuffs, damage per tick before crits would be 1175*(1 - 0.0946) = 1063 and per cast after crits (1063*4)*1.3 = 5527.6; -20 cold resist debuffing would be sufficient to eliminate the reduction.


The Necro is casting Marlow's Cremation, which has a -125 fire adjust. In the current system, the chance to be fully resisted in our example would be 8.15%.

The average damage per Marlow's Cremation in this instance will be:
Focuses: 420*1.822 = 765*6 = 4590
Crits: 4590*1.3 = 5967
Resists 5967*(1 - 0.0815) = 5480.6895

Efficiency: 5480.6895 / 375 [465*0.805] = 14.615172


Under the new system it would be like this:
Focuses: 420*1.822 = 765
Resist adjustment: 765*(1 - 0.0815) = 702

Before crits, and assuming resist value does not change on our target, damage will always be 702 per tick.
After crits, average damage per cast will be (702*6)*1.3 = 5475.6

Efficiency: 5475.6 / 375 = 14.6016

A few points of damage are lost to decimal rounding.

The resist adjust on Marlow's Cremation is smaller, and in this case at least -95 fire resist debuffing would be necessary to eliminate the adjustment; in our case Malosini only provides -60. If our Druid had landed Tarhyl's Raging Curse, that in itself would have been enough.


The Necro is casting Caress of Sivyana, which has 0 poison resist adjust, plus -25 from Glyph of Sivyana. In the current system, the chance to be fully resisted in our example would be 17.48%.

The average damage per Caress of Sivyana in this instance will be:
Focuses: (498*1.822) = 907*4 = 3628
Crits: 3628*1.3 = 4716.4
Nuke portion: 4716.4 + (215*1.822) = 5107.4
Resists 5107.4*(1 - 0.1748) = 4214.62648

Efficiency: 4214.62648 / 407 [505*0.805] = ~10.35534761


Under the new system it would be like this:
Nuke Portion:
Focuses: 215*1.822 = 391
Resist adjustment: 391*(1 - 0.1748) = 322
[Note that Nuke portions of DoTs are considered DoTs as far as resist chance goes; they can't partial.]

DoT Portion:
Focuses: 498*1.822 = 907
Resist adjustment: 907*(1 - 0.1748) = 748

Before crits, and assuming resist value does not change on our target, damage will always be 748 per tick.
After crits, average damage per cast will be (748*4)*1.3 = 3889.6 + 322 = 4211.6

Efficiency: 4211.6 / 407 = ~10.34791154

For this one we'd need -135 poison resist debuffing to fully negate the resist adjustment, which is of course not reachable.


The Necro is casting Scitterpox which has a -5 disease resist adjust. In the current system, the chance to be fully resisted in our example would be 22.13%.

The average damage per Scitterpox in this instance will be:
Focuses: (290*1.822) = 528*9 = 4752
Crits: 4752*1.3 = 6177.6
Nuke portion: 6177.6 + (125*1.822) = 6404.6
Resists 6404.6*(1 - 0.2213) = 4987.26202

Efficiency: 4987.26202 / 423 [525*0.805] = ~11.79021754


Under the new system it would be like this:
Nuke Portion:
Focuses: 125*1.822 = 227
Resist adjustment: 227*(1 - 0.2213) = 176

DoT Portion:
Focuses: 290*1.822 = 528
Resist adjustment: 528*(1 - 0.2213) = 411

Before crits, and assuming resist value does not change on our target, damage will always be 411 per tick.
After crits, average damage per cast will be (411*9)*1.3 = 4808.7 + 176 = 4984.7

Efficiency: 4984.7 / 423 = ~11.78416075




Obviously time is the key consideration missing in all this if we were trying to compare Wizards to Necros, but that's something for another thread (also a lot of the values for Necros will be moot if the adjustments I slated for next patch do go in). But just as an example of the kind of giant Necro-killing, Wizard-loving nerfs we are looking at, here~

 

[Melestav]

This looks like a really good change. I'm really excited about the possible end of PoT4 balancing too.

 

[Silosobi]

I also really like the prospect of that too.

I think this change should go through first so people can adjust a bit and actually see what kind of impact pot4 is having after the change, but I think it is a really awesome direction for the game, putting more control in players hands of their own fate rather than just RNG.

Raids can now say "okay, everyone make sure you get up to 340FR for this fight so that we can take 3 AEs before each group heal" rather than "hey stack as much FR as is possible, and if you dont have enough or just get unlucky 2x or 3x in a row you die"

The pot4/mots changes could potentially open up the bard class a bit more to some more interesting/useful changes without "well they are so powerful/required already they dont need to get any stronger"

 

[Silosobi]

A replacement tome for Reclaiming Mana:

Elemental Intuition:
Each rank of this tome increases the wizards resistances and gives them a small resist modifier for their offensive spells. (Each rank is +10 to all resists and -5 to all resist modifiers)

I think this would be a very good replacement for Reclaiming Mana because it fills a very similar role, and thus people who have put exp into reclaiming mana will probably be happy with the replacement. It also fits very well with the new system of resists. Because of the way resists work, the potency of this tome will vary. Sometimes +40 resist or -20 mod (for doing all 4 ranks) can make a big difference, but the vast majority of the time it will be minimal - and sometimes do nothing). The +resists help a bit with wizards being one of the squishiest classes in the game, and it makes sense that because we are masters of offensive dd sorcery, we might be a bit more resistant to it than your average ranger. The - adjust helps a lot with highly resistant mobs, where wizards are generally pretty lackluster.

Another note/question.

Does this change mean that much of the time divination will directly translate into damage? I used to sort of feel like divination wasn't a big deal since a lot of the highend mobs have really low resists after full debuffs, but seeing a direct damage increase from div would be interesting for sure.

 

[Zaela]

Does this change mean that much of the time divination will directly translate into damage?

As long as your spell isn't already doing full, unadjusted damage, i.e. that it has a smaller resist adjust than the target's current effective resist, yes.

Thinking about my last post I think I'll try to see if I can't tack a remainder onto the last tic of DoTs a la elemental damage, to minimize the amount effectively lost to decimal truncation. Not sure how best to accomplish that at the moment, though. edit: okay i figured it out.

 

[Zaela]

I don't even think scaling per tick would be possible

'tis.

Third, resists do suck. They suck more for some classes than others. Specifically, resists suck for a class who can effectively dps by mashing 1-2 buttons if those buttons stop working a lot more than for a class that weaves many buttons and just changes the rotation if one stops working. Isn't the reason it sucks kind of the reason it should suck though? [[[The inconvenience cost of a complex rotation has the side benefit of versatility, and the convenience benefit of simpler rotations comes at the cost of versatility... does that make any sense?? I'm pretty tired and can't seem to get this idea out right]]]

I don't if what's in here is actually the case but I don't mind getting a tome idea from it. Having to deal with potentially all 5 different resist types at once and keep up elemental focus effects for each kind of sucks, but a tome that makes that a strength could be neat. First stab: for each different element represented as a DoT you have running on your target (after the first), each of your DoTs gains -2/-4/-7/-10 effective resist adjust.

In other words, if you have DoTs of 4 different elements ticking on your target and you have rank 4 in the tome, each of your DoTs has -30 resist adjust on top of whatever adjusts they normally have, for example. So it would be to your benefit to keep a disease DoT on a target even if they are near immune to it, because the synergy it gives to your other DoTs may be worth it, and the synergy it receives it return may make it do a more respectable amount anyway.

Of course all of that would only really make sense in the new system. And it may be quite lame, might not have to think about it very much. But.

 

[Dinadass]

Great posts Zaela. I love me some numbers.

As far as the versatility vs. simplicity argument, that wouldn't really change with this system. If a necro would do more DPS now by dropping disease or poison spells from his rotation on a mob, that would still likely be the case with the new system. Instead of being outright resisted, it would land and do minimal amounts of damage, making it still not worth the cast time and mana cost (barring other changes like the above tome idea.)

 

[donfolstar3]

NUMBERS!!!

Wow, that was one of the best post I've seen on SoD forums in a long time. It cleared up my biggest problem which was I thought there would be a RNG element to this system, not static percentage maths. For some reason (probably illiteracy) I was picturing watching a dot hit for 702, then 654, then 499, then 903, etc... and trying to figure out wtf it all meant while simultaneously figuring out 4 other dots.

So... yeah... since that isn't the case I actually like this idea quite a bit. My bad.

/eat crow

 

[Tarutao]

Your first hint that it wasn't going to be a mathematical clusterf*** was that I posted in support of this. Please recognize this hint next time.

Side note: On the "spell variance version 2" argument... if I thought that was the case, I'd be crying the loudest.

 

[Zaela]

Yes it's always wonderful to find out the only person really posing arguments against something flat out did not understand what that something was.

Anyone else have some?