Shaman healing role

The basic idea is to change the way they heal to be more in line with how it ought to be. Shm are the wis equivalent of necro--slow and steady; a hot-centric heal lineup would be a better solution than the "gimp the relic so it ends up the same" thing we have now. Then playing a shaman in a healing-intensive situation wouldnt just be about hammering the heals over and over--hots have a cooldown before you cast them again, you have other time to do shit, the tradeoff being that you can't ever "pad hard" unless you want to burn your mana. More decisions being made, more strategic oppertunities, more fun to play--at least in theory. There's a reason we have very few mained shamans on the server, after all.

However, I'm in no way the end-all arbiter of things shaman. That's why I really want input from mained shamans on this idea.
 
Finny said:
Yeah missed that little gem in there. I still am not sure why it matters how their heals are delivered if the amount of healing power they can do is the same, but w/e.

Well, as someone who almost is always botting a shaman and main healing with said shaman I will explain why I would like heal over times. Let's say we pull a mob that is hitting hard enough my tank can't tank it without constant heals. as it currently stands I can either try to slow the mob without maloing and using turger's and hoping the tank doesn't die before I get the mob slowed or I can spam woundbane. Also, even as a botted shaman I am constantly throwing out dots, rebuffing, etc in the middle of fighting so being able to let a heal tick away on the tank would be a godsend.
 
Allielyn said:
LOL I thought the idea was to make them funner to play; not make them easier to bot =P

Whether I am botting one or just playing the shaman doesn't change the way that I play a shaman?
 
Let's clear up a little bit of the BS.

SHM have the best SLOW. False. Enchanters, Bards, and Beastmasters have an equivelent slow, 50%. They may get them at leater levels, btu at 65, the amount is equal. SHM do have a mask quest to get a bit more, but that is an ITEM, not a shaman inherent. Please note, the other classes cast faster, have a lower recast time, and cost less mana. We have the ability to aquire a slow based on a different resist. We have an AOE slow. Thus, we have different situational slows to make us the best slowers, not a single inherently superior spell.

SHM have Malo line. True. However, as a debuff, it can be used by any class once it is landed. It has a huge cast time, costs a lot of mana, and with the exception of the late game and low powered Malo, it is resistable. go figure. As a nifty bonus, since we have malo, all of our spells are sitting at base resists. You probalby do not know that a greater majority of your spells already come with a negative resist adjustment... you basically get free malo.

SHM have awesome mana regen. True... at 60. Prior to that, we have something akin to breeze. However, because of this boon, our spells cost more for the same effect. Thus, to remain equal, we must canni. Please note the AT 60 portion... the shaman lives with this for 59 levels before he can reach his offset.

SHM have awesome DoTs. False. We share two decent DoT lines with Necros. These DoTs are not overly superior to another's... they suffer from all of the above listed issues... they lack an inherent resist mod, they cost more for the same effect. They are afflicted with a tiny DD portion on casting. The primary purpose of this is to break root.

SHM buffs are awesome. True. We have a bit of an issue with druids on the Focus/PotG thing, and Flight of the Eagles suddenly overwrites Acumen (Sta Regen), Bih'Li (ATK Buff), and something else I cannot recall at 2am. We do get great stat buffs, and we can even group cast them... in the late 50s. Prior to that, we blow several mana bars just trying to buff a group, only to have to do it again in 30 minutes. SO wiseass will have a comment about not buffing, but hell, that is why we were invited to the group... don't buff, don't stay. It wasn't our healing power.

SHM abilities are always in high demand for items. Ask the item designers what class's abillities are number one request for clickies. That is because you look at it, see exactly how it would great benefit your class, and desire it because it would greatly improve your power. Malo clickies, Canni clickies... the suggestions forum is FULL of them. So, why aren't shaman massive juggernauts of liquid win, able to solo packs of red named mobs? Because, for every single SHM ability, every single one, the SHM pays a MASSIVE price of ownership. Every single little strategy you have in your head about how to use that ability, the SHM has a built in, inherent feature that prevents it.

So what do we get for the bargin? We get the ability to be absolutely required to cast massively high aggro spells as early as possible in the fight, long before the tank is "established", so that we get a quick flurry of red and a Loading screen, but the raid does not wipe. We get to sit at our bind point and wait for the loot to be linked so that we can be rezzed, so that we can make use of our massive mana regen to quickly buff ourselves while the raid lavishes praises upon the cleric who whines of the stresses of the job and , if the gods be praised and they faun long enough, you might be ready to do it all again on the next fight.

To what do we look forward to? Why, we do that enough times that the tank gets clickies to cast those high aggro spells himself. At that point, the SHM's remaining value is to buffbot and the player can now spend his time leveling, AAing, and gearing a whole new character that actually has some value to the guild amid their demands for you to hurry up.

Gee, I wonder why their are so few mained shaman, and so many botted. Mysteries of the friggen ages, right there...

Now, I know I said I would discuss it on another place and not crap this thread up, but it seems life does not change. You throw the letter S, H and M together and everyone's first thought is, "5K PP!!!" Once that passes, they set in to whining about crap they could not possibly understand and start in with anecdotal evidence involving perfect situations and top 5 shaman of the server doing the impossible with extreme luck.

Now, I do not think I am way out of line by saying that if you take my 4 second cast / 250 mana /2k instant heal (yes, all made up numbers, dumbass) and give me a 4 second cast / 250 mana /2k heal over 30 minutes, that's a nerf. A 4 second cast /750 mana/ 6k heal over 18 seconds, and really, you have not changed a thing. For most classes, its even a nerf. For a SHM, it is a small buff. (If you don't know why it would be a buff, then you have no business in this discussion.) Now, if you make it 2 second cast, 600 mana, 8k heal over 24 seconds, you have given the SHM a major buff in a case where other classes would be very reluctant to give up healing power, 8k over 26-28 seconds is very close to what a SHM can actually put out without woundbane.

Given the nature of the game, it would be a mortal sin for a Shaman to use one of his class defining abilties that he pays such a heavy price for to actually ever do anything to ever exceed the fixed power of a Cleric, praise be his name, and we accept that as why we may never possess great healing power. Are you really so jealous that the concept of fast cast HoTs for the use of secondary healer to be so threatening?
 
I wouldn't comment on the healing part here. It sounds weird in my head that shamans get heals over time, since their ability is to provide direct heals with a theorically infinite mana., which sounds like a HoT already to some extent. But whatever it wouldn't change much, just playing SHM easier, not absolutely funnier.

However I agree with Finster about the FD. That would trample onto other classes toes and it's totally not justified.
 
Dzillon said:
I wouldn't comment on the healing part here. It sounds weird in my head that shamans get heals over time, since their ability is to provide direct heals with a theorically infinite mana., which sounds like a HoT already to some extent. But whatever it wouldn't change much, just playing SHM easier, not absolutely funnier.

However I agree with Finster about the FD. That would trample onto other classes toes and it's totally not justified.

The thread about healing sleep is thataway.
 
I agree with Finster, even though I wouldn't word it this way :)

I like shamans as they are, my bf plays one and I sometimes do, too. Comparing to my druid, he never runs oom and is usually the (main) healer in groups, while I have time to nuke and fool around.

I don't think everyone that can heal has to be awesome at it, especially if they have other abilities. What do clerics think about adding heals over time to shamans? Except for group complete heals and aego I don't see why people would bring clerics to groups when they could get more with having a shaman and druid, also benefitting from their other abilities.

As for normal heals over time goes, I'd hate it due to lack of buff slots (playing a SK.. Clerics better not use HoTs on me or I will die anyway). Allowing some other classes to use the exclusive bard ability of singing would result in every class wanting to have a special song.

I don't know where you'd put more spells in the spell bar, I always have it full when I play a shaman, 2 heals, 2 or 3 different slows (bow before AE slow <3), dots, slumber of the beast and I don't have space to memorize debuffs.
 
I really am happy with shaman healing the way it is and I'm not about to authorize mucking around with a solidly balanced class for no adequately explained reason.
 
moghedancarns said:
Let's clear up a little bit of the BS.

SHM have the best SLOW. False. Enchanters, Bards, and Beastmasters have an equivelent slow, 50%. They may get them at leater levels, btu at 65, the amount is equal. SHM do have a mask quest to get a bit more, but that is an ITEM, not a shaman inherent. Please note, the other classes cast faster, have a lower recast time, and cost less mana. We have the ability to aquire a slow based on a different resist. We have an AOE slow. Thus, we have different situational slows to make us the best slowers, not a single inherently superior spell.

SHM have Malo line. True. However, as a debuff, it can be used by any class once it is landed. It has a huge cast time, costs a lot of mana, and with the exception of the late game and low powered Malo, it is resistable. go figure. As a nifty bonus, since we have malo, all of our spells are sitting at base resists. You probalby do not know that a greater majority of your spells already come with a negative resist adjustment... you basically get free malo.

SHM have awesome mana regen. True... at 60. Prior to that, we have something akin to breeze. However, because of this boon, our spells cost more for the same effect. Thus, to remain equal, we must canni. Please note the AT 60 portion... the shaman lives with this for 59 levels before he can reach his offset.

SHM have awesome DoTs. False. We share two decent DoT lines with Necros. These DoTs are not overly superior to another's... they suffer from all of the above listed issues... they lack an inherent resist mod, they cost more for the same effect. They are afflicted with a tiny DD portion on casting. The primary purpose of this is to break root.

SHM buffs are awesome. True. We have a bit of an issue with druids on the Focus/PotG thing, and Flight of the Eagles suddenly overwrites Acumen (Sta Regen), Bih'Li (ATK Buff), and something else I cannot recall at 2am. We do get great stat buffs, and we can even group cast them... in the late 50s. Prior to that, we blow several mana bars just trying to buff a group, only to have to do it again in 30 minutes. SO wiseass will have a comment about not buffing, but hell, that is why we were invited to the group... don't buff, don't stay. It wasn't our healing power.

SHM abilities are always in high demand for items. Ask the item designers what class's abillities are number one request for clickies. That is because you look at it, see exactly how it would great benefit your class, and desire it because it would greatly improve your power. Malo clickies, Canni clickies... the suggestions forum is FULL of them. So, why aren't shaman massive juggernauts of liquid win, able to solo packs of red named mobs? Because, for every single SHM ability, every single one, the SHM pays a MASSIVE price of ownership. Every single little strategy you have in your head about how to use that ability, the SHM has a built in, inherent feature that prevents it.

So what do we get for the bargin? We get the ability to be absolutely required to cast massively high aggro spells as early as possible in the fight, long before the tank is "established", so that we get a quick flurry of red and a Loading screen, but the raid does not wipe. We get to sit at our bind point and wait for the loot to be linked so that we can be rezzed, so that we can make use of our massive mana regen to quickly buff ourselves while the raid lavishes praises upon the cleric who whines of the stresses of the job and , if the gods be praised and they faun long enough, you might be ready to do it all again on the next fight.

To what do we look forward to? Why, we do that enough times that the tank gets clickies to cast those high aggro spells himself. At that point, the SHM's remaining value is to buffbot and the player can now spend his time leveling, AAing, and gearing a whole new character that actually has some value to the guild amid their demands for you to hurry up.

Gee, I wonder why their are so few mained shaman, and so many botted. Mysteries of the friggen ages, right there...

Now, I know I said I would discuss it on another place and not crap this thread up, but it seems life does not change. You throw the letter S, H and M together and everyone's first thought is, "5K PP!!!" Once that passes, they set in to whining about crap they could not possibly understand and start in with anecdotal evidence involving perfect situations and top 5 shaman of the server doing the impossible with extreme luck.

Now, I do not think I am way out of line by saying that if you take my 4 second cast / 250 mana /2k instant heal (yes, all made up numbers, dumbass) and give me a 4 second cast / 250 mana /2k heal over 30 minutes, that's a nerf. A 4 second cast /750 mana/ 6k heal over 18 seconds, and really, you have not changed a thing. For most classes, its even a nerf. For a SHM, it is a small buff. (If you don't know why it would be a buff, then you have no business in this discussion.) Now, if you make it 2 second cast, 600 mana, 8k heal over 24 seconds, you have given the SHM a major buff in a case where other classes would be very reluctant to give up healing power, 8k over 26-28 seconds is very close to what a SHM can actually put out without woundbane.

Given the nature of the game, it would be a mortal sin for a Shaman to use one of his class defining abilties that he pays such a heavy price for to actually ever do anything to ever exceed the fixed power of a Cleric, praise be his name, and we accept that as why we may never possess great healing power. Are you really so jealous that the concept of fast cast HoTs for the use of secondary healer to be so threatening?

To me, it seems you highly undervalue the power of the shaman class. Since this thread has discussed the theme of shaman power as something "over-time," I feel it's appropriate in viewing the growth of a shaman as over-time. Sure, shamen aren't the most efficient at lower levels with regards to buffing and healing, but if you keep putting in time and effort to level and get money, then you'll reach 65 and get more efficient spells.

I will give you the fact that there is disparity between droppable-geared shamen and Upper Thaz-geared shamen, but that can be said about any class. If you are in a guild committed to raiding and growing, then you'll get better gear. And, if you're committed to leveling, then you'll get AA's. In the end, you'll find that:

Shamen DO get the best slow regardless of the mask: Archaic: Spirit Sleep, base 55%.

Shamen DO have awesome dots. Sure, they will never compare to necromancer dots, but I think averaging 2000-3000 damage per tick (counting affliction enhancement and crits, which happen surprisingly a lot after AA work) with stacked dots isn't too shabby. By the time you've run 3 dots 2 times, you can canni and gain back quite a bit of mana. And, they actually aren't resisted that much, unless the mob is actually poison and disease immune.

I will admit that I agree with some things you say such as mana regen for shamen, but again it takes time to get better. However, I don't know what proof you have to say that items with shaman abilities are in high demand.

Your statement about our obligation to cast "massive" aggro spells early in fights which results in aggro and death and thus defines our role is unfounded. Even when I was in Empire and not as well-geared, I could wait until the mob was around 97%-98% and not grab aggro from a slow. In fact, what other spells do we have to grab huge aggro? If you get aggro with malo(sini) or cripple, then that's sad; at least, let the main tank engage the mob. My suggestion is to help heal the main tank until the mob is around 97%-98%, and then slow. Your pad healing should help compensate the fact that mob isn't slowed yet.

You can say it may be all the gear that makes shamen what they are, and I will agree with you just to further my point. IT TAKES TIME. You can't expect to pick up a new character and it be great at what it does. If you want to be a casual player, then by all means do so, but don't think the class you play is any less than what it is/could be and try to set limits for that class. I thoroughly enjoy maining my shaman, and it's because I've poured lots of time into him.
 
moghedancarns said:
Let's clear up a little bit of the BS.

SHM have the best SLOW. False. Enchanters, Bards, and Beastmasters have an equivelent slow, 50%.

False. Bard slow caps out at 40%.

I don't know much about the other classes, but I'm sure there's a reason why shamans keep the healing role as opposed to the other classes on raids. Perhaps shaman slows carry a higher resist mod?
 
Allielyn said:
I don't know much about the other classes, but I'm sure there's a reason why shamans keep the healing role as opposed to the other classes on raids. Perhaps shaman slows carry a higher resist mod?

Well on live as a 70 shaman with oodiles of hp's and mana that's about the only thing to do during a raid besides buff the idiots who would pull agro from the MT or die during killing trash. There were few specific fights where we actually had something unique to do but those were few and far between. Other than spam healing the MT hard if the clerics screwed up, which just ate my mana very quickly. The slow didn't have a higher resist mod the mob's would mitigate slow and some were just flat out immune. Which just made us buff bots basically.

Still trying to figure out why i'm playing one again.../lol
 
Mordaen said:
Well on live as a 70 shaman with oodiles of hp's and mana that's about the only thing to do during a raid besides buff the idiots who would pull agro from the MT or die during killing trash. There were few specific fights where we actually had something unique to do but those were few and far between. Other than spam healing the MT hard if the clerics screwed up, which just ate my mana very quickly. The slow didn't have a higher resist mod the mob's would mitigate slow and some were just flat out immune. Which just made us buff bots basically.

Still trying to figure out why i'm playing one again.../lol

This isn't live.
 
I bot my shaman when I solo play, but group wise I normaly play him over my paladin (I enjoy him more).

Adding HoT heals to a shaman I think over all would help in grouping. Not so much for efficency or anything but like some have mentioned, Many of our spells are slow casting, having the ability to HoT would give us a bit of flexability to use our debuffs and dots. Adding a non-Self only topor style spell would be a great addition for shamans in grouping/raid. Of course stacking with other HoTs would be a issue.

I'm not to knowlegable about slot numbers for buffs, but prehaps having it over-write Reg Buffs instead of the Normaly HoT buff slot. Would be a trade off that the shaman couldn't keep regrowth on any target they HoTed but I see HoT more for Main tank style healing and less ofr other memebers. The HoT would have to be a fast cast style spell (or a little slwoer) with a cool down of some sorts. nothing you could spam but something you could throw every 2-3 minutes give or take. Mainly a HoT to throw while you try and debuff or dot, then go back into DD healing.

A Super High Reg Style Buff, with a very very low duration.

However I also agree with Wiz a bit on this, Shaman do feel rather balanced as is. Do I wish I could heal more?? Of course but everyone wishes there class was better in some way. I have heard our Relic is rather lack luster (not having myself I have to go on what other shamans have said about it).
I dont know if redoing the shaman totaly over with Hot style healing in mind is the way to go.
 
The HoT would be more for Grouping then raiding... At least thats my thought anyways.

Never been in a group where theres ever been a real issue with max Buff slots. Generaly speaking most groups seem to have 9-12 Buffs. Shaman I tend to put 6 (7 if I haste) buffs on everyone, Cleric/Druid adds 1-2 more, enchanter 2 normaly. You really only get into issues on buff slots when your raiding, if your raiding chances are there more then enought Patch healers for your HoT to not be needed to keep the tank alive while your debfuffing.

Edit:

A Crazy thought just popped into mind...

What if shaman got a new line of HoT, but instead of being a normal HoT they summon a pet that cast heals.

Like the Shamans Thug tunic, these spells could summon a minature Animal (bear I would say) This Spirit Bear NPC would be summoned while targeting a player. The Spiri Bear NPC would pop up and run within range of the PC it was targeted on (could even be really short range), it would then cast a Set Healing Spell (based on the level) 3 times on the PC and despawn.

This would totaly take care of any Stacking issues since there just DD heals, it would give shamans a HoT style heal, and would also fit shamans spirtual theme (summong a animal spirit for aid).
 
Im pretty happy with the way shamans are made and i have played one from level 1 to level 65 with nearly 600 aas. Woundbane is a pretty good heal, i can single heal almost all groups and am a pretty good healer on raids.
 
Kirin Folken said:
Never been in a group where theres ever been a real issue with max Buff slots.

Your limited experience definitely does not encompass the experience of the rest of the player base.
 
iaeolan said:
Your limited experience definitely does not encompass the experience of the rest of the player base.

Here we go again....

Please enlighten us then.... in what normal group do you have problems with 15 buff slots? I would really like to hear this.
 
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