if you're just going to give rogue's better daggers to increase dps.. then you're going to create a gap where a monk can't even hold a candle to rangers or rogues. I will be more than happy to parse Zhak when and if I'm unbanned, but I know for a fact that rangers were at least 100 dps on top of zhak when I was banned, and being that Zhak has the best everything (2hb, 1hb's, haste, atk, str/dex, whatever) when it comes to DPS, that's a problem.
rogues, my 2cp
- Thread starter Salarus
- Start date
Brimztone said:
thanks for sending in the parses.
as for the dummy mob id go stab at it for a bit if someone was capable of parsing it.
and in the raid last night, i dont have the parses myself, but in comparison to elindal, wearing a swiftshot, and my rog, using a rotted dragon tooth and stormrazor, i was hitting 100-150 lower dps... at times being more in some fights...
Diodimus
Dalayan Elder
The other day while grouping with a rogue, i noticed that when he pulled sometimes he would assassinate a full health target. Just a thought, but doesnt that make them more useful when clearing trash? Also what other class can get a one shot kill on a full health mob that gives them xp?
Diodimus said:
Compared to several other classes, rogue DPS is pretty sub-par throughout all levels. Just because they have one ability at the high end that makes clearing trash easier, doesn't mean their DPS isn't lacking.
Give rogues triple attack and lower dmg from backstabs. At least then dmg output would be more consistent and less spikey. I honestly never understood why the purely DPS melee class is the one that didn't get triple attack. :-/
Diodimus
Dalayan Elder
To be honest i dont really have much experience with rogues as my guild is currently, and annoyingly lacking one of those, it just seems that every 2 or 3 weeks, the same complaints arise and instead of rogues getting dps increases, rangers get decreases and to be honest im getting annoyed with it.
I have noticed in every single post that the comment is made that even though parses are made they are with a ranger on a higher tier than the rogue. Hopefully Brimz took that into consideration when he gave wiz his parses, but i'm willing to bet that any rogue who is complaining can out dps me and i've put all the AA's i have into my bow for the same reason that they get out dpsed by other rangers, better gear and more aa'
I have noticed in every single post that the comment is made that even though parses are made they are with a ranger on a higher tier than the rogue. Hopefully Brimz took that into consideration when he gave wiz his parses, but i'm willing to bet that any rogue who is complaining can out dps me and i've put all the AA's i have into my bow for the same reason that they get out dpsed by other rangers, better gear and more aa'
Finny
Dalayan Adventurer
Diodimus said:
Most of the parses that I have (and most likely that Brimz sent) were with Arraz with 140 worn atk and Obsidian Shanker/Flamestrike Mace, Drello ~100 worn atk and Woe, Brandar max atk and Woe... so by no means were these parses made with characters on totally different tiers (although Brandar is like a perfectly geared ranger). For fuck sake, the rangers are using a bow from about 6+ months ago in content when we first killed Yashira, the first dragon in OP, and our rogue is using the shanker from a mob we just first killed about 3 weeks ago, Upper Thazeran's Tower Earth Boss, and the rangers still whoop the rogues in DPS.
The more I think about it, maybe a reasonable solution would be to increase low end backstab damage. I think with the 17 damage poker I've seen hits as low as 900 and with the 16 as low as 640, but I would have to check parses when I get home to verify. Say, the lowest a 17dmg could hit for would be 1500 and the 16dmg would be somewhere around 1200. Doing this would help with making rogue dps a bit more consistent. If someone is bored (Brimz!) or something maybe they can search through a log file and replace any backstabs under 1500 with a flat 1500 stab and then parse it and see how it affects overall dps. Just a thought!
Yeah, im with Zhak here.. A solution needs to be found where the other melees arnt left behind in this rogue/ranger arms race.Zhak said:
It probably wont ever happen, but an arena set up for testing would atleast let us give reliable numbers. That might just create more problems than it solves though.
Finny said:
checked a 12mb logfile of thaf and lowest backstab was 164 and thaf has about 130 worn atk. checked another logfile of thaf's (64mb) and lowest backstab was a 220 crit. and checking other fights/log it wasn't that rare to get 300-500 minimum backstab hits, especially on named fights which count the most!
penfold said:
just watching my backstabs ive seen plenty under 500.... i use a 16 dmg dagger and i have a bit of worn atk, mostly just hood of hellfire but its a work in progress... a minimum like mentioned before would def jump my dps way higher heh... i am also not exactly high in aas though. i believe thaf has like 100 more though and still gets these low hits...
Are you guys in favor of triple attack aware at all of how much agro that generates? or how much faster you can suicide yourself on a damage shield?
If we got a minimum backstab dmg, it would be have to be calculated before the mob's AC -- in which case youd still see low numbers like you do now. They mean nothing except the mob had a good amount of AC. Id rather have old cripple style back but most of you probably dont remember that.
I would like to see some more traps put ingame though :keke:. I think they are alot of fun and theres alot of potential growth for creative stuff.
If we got a minimum backstab dmg, it would be have to be calculated before the mob's AC -- in which case youd still see low numbers like you do now. They mean nothing except the mob had a good amount of AC. Id rather have old cripple style back but most of you probably dont remember that.
I would like to see some more traps put ingame though :keke:. I think they are alot of fun and theres alot of potential growth for creative stuff.
Brimztone
Dalayan Elder
Yeah, it's only fair to keep classes like Monks in mind.Xeldan said:
Looking through my parses, according to EQ companion my melee damage(not counting procs) is about 30% backstab, and 70% regular melee. Usually ranging from ~25% to ~30% depending on how many big(2 or 3K+) backstabs I get. I don't think that adding Triple Attack and lower backstab damage slightly would be a good fix. If an auto-riposte mob is turned by accident(Perhaps by a monk with a baseball bat) I already kill myself fast enough. If backstab damage was raised enough to raise backstabs to ~30% to ~35% and give us that boost in DPS, while keeping our consistent melee the same. Basically upping our backstabs by a a range of ~5-10%. If this is too drastic a change, feel free to criticize it around, up, down, sideways, whatever.
Maybe what Finster has suggested will do so, by increasing minimum backstab damage. Only trial, error, and testing can tell.
Maybe there was a reason double BS was on the rogue. With the other benefits BS received it might be out of line and would need balancing. More chances on BS created a stable average.
What I would like to see is a very small chance for chaotic stab level BS on melee hits. BS could be a well aimed hit and the melee proc version could be a half ass one. Might just be a fancy cripple strike then.
What I would like to see is a very small chance for chaotic stab level BS on melee hits. BS could be a well aimed hit and the melee proc version could be a half ass one. Might just be a fancy cripple strike then.
kukov said:
im actually curious on the % 200 hide has to fail... i know it cant be every time.. but failing 4-6 times in a row is just not right... i hear monks complain if they get 2 fd fails in a row... any chance this could be commented on? im not sure if its just piss poor luck on my end but theres a LOT of times when i fail 4-5 times in a row...