Ranger DPS (vs Rogue too!)

[vistachiri]

Yeah, I'd much rather be somewhere farming greens and light blues for a little cash than be out making real exp. As for cash farming, my mage is almost as good as are druids, necros, bards and most of the other classes that have a good skillset for soloing.

On Live, it was a common practice to give the first gem that dropped to the cleric in the group to cover his expense for peridots. Not ONCE has a group ever offered to cover my arrow expenses. While other classes are saving $$$ towards gear upgrades, charms, augs, etc, rangers have to set aside time to farm PP to maintain our group/raid desirability. I, and I believe I speak for most rangers, just look on this as part of what we have to do as a class.

With the $ nerf of various spots soloing most blues if you head to the right area now makes more than cycs do atm. Also 3 kiteable areas off the top of my head, a few difficultish places to do as such as well due to buildings etc.

 

[Alton]

One easy suggestion, though I wouldn't prefer it:

Tweak melee & archery damage to reasonable, appropriate rates. W/e that is based on the vision.
Tweak this based on rogue melee and rangers with 3 (or 4-5 idk, cheap) arrows.

Implement poison (pref. based of brewing, since its useless as is atm anyway) as a rogue only ability.
Poisons would be made with vendor sold items only, as are arrows.
Make poison cost a similar amount at the high end to ranger high end (8 dmg?) arrows, and make it increase dps by a similar amount.

Kinda makes sense, no?

 

[Zhak]

from my personal opinion and reviewing logs and parses, I would move to lower ranger dps and slightly up rogue dps, if you just ouright up rogue dps and leave ranger dps, there is going to be a *huge* ( read almost double ) gap between monks and rangers

 

[Caoimhe]

One easy suggestion, though I wouldn't prefer it:

Tweak melee & archery damage to reasonable, appropriate rates. W/e that is based on the vision.
Tweak this based on rogue melee and rangers with 3 (or 4-5 idk, cheap) arrows.

Implement poison (pref. based of brewing, since its useless as is atm anyway) as a rogue only ability.
Poisons would be made with vendor sold items only, as are arrows.
Make poison cost a similar amount at the high end to ranger high end (8 dmg?) arrows, and make it increase dps by a similar amount.

Kinda makes sense, no?

Completely forgot about poisons. The skills (Make / Apply Poison) are already in the client, so it would just be a matter of implementing them. Yes, a large project, but it would probably be one of the best fixes, though not necessarily independant of other tweaks.

 

[Dzillon]

Alton's poison idea is A+. Don't know how it worked on live though, but it would balance the deal for sure.
Maybe make superior poisons alchemist made ?

 

[Caoimhe]

IIRC, poisons on Live essentially added a proc to any slashing or piercing weapon for a certain number of hits. The proc didn't happen every hit, but I believe it was a pretty high proc rate.

If poisons were implemented, they would definitely need to be made so that a poisoned weapon could not be traded, upon trading a poisoned weapon would lose it's poison, or that poisons were essentially proc buffs that stacked with most other proc buffs.

 

[Kelval]

Or have poison be +xxx elemental damage based on poison, for a certain number of hits?
That would increase the overall damage. But of course, it's "only" elemental damage.

 

[Aaubert]

One easy suggestion, though I wouldn't prefer it:

Tweak melee & archery damage to reasonable, appropriate rates. W/e that is based on the vision.
Tweak this based on rogue melee and rangers with 3 (or 4-5 idk, cheap) arrows.

Implement poison (pref. based of brewing, since its useless as is atm anyway) as a rogue only ability.
Poisons would be made with vendor sold items only, as are arrows.
Make poison cost a similar amount at the high end to ranger high end (8 dmg?) arrows, and make it increase dps by a similar amount.

Kinda makes sense, no?

i agree that would make rogues and rangers more on par, but i'm not sure that the best solution is to make rogues pay for more DPS w/ plat. I don't think that ranger DPS being PP-dependant wasn't brought up as a Good thing.

 

[phlit]

i agree that would make rogues and rangers more on par, but i'm not sure that the best solution is to make rogues pay for more DPS w/ plat. I don't think that ranger DPS being PP-dependant wasn't brought up as a Good thing.

Paying for DPS is a lame thing. Rangers can summon themselves 1dmg arrows, or use mage summoned 3dmg. Or spend plat on 4-8dmg arrows. It obviously doesn't help at all to have rangers with variable DPS when comparing DPS balance. There are still no real parses in this thread, but do we consider 8dmg arrows for comparison, or 3, or 1?

The spirit of the rogue suggestion is to allow them to up their DPS by paying plat. This is what any capable ranger does currently (I presume every raiding ranger uses 8dmg arrows...). So it seems like a decent enough idea. On the other hand, seriously, do more people want to be paying money to do their max dps? Wizards, start saving now...

 

[JDJersey]

As put forth by the tables presented in this thread, Wiz intends for Wizards and Rogues to be tops on DPS. So for me it breaks down like this: We are asuming Wiz still intends for this to be, so rogues need to be upped because being comparable to rangers isn't intended. OR We are argueing that this vision needs to be revised. I think we need to define the arguement befor moving on further.

 

[Alton]

Paying for DPS is a lame thing. Rangers can summon themselves 1dmg arrows, or use mage summoned 3dmg. Or spend plat on 4-8dmg arrows. It obviously doesn't help at all to have rangers with variable DPS when comparing DPS balance. There are still no real parses in this thread, but do we consider 8dmg arrows for comparison, or 3, or 1?

The spirit of the rogue suggestion is to allow them to up their DPS by paying plat. This is what any capable ranger does currently (I presume every raiding ranger uses 8dmg arrows...). So it seems like a decent enough idea. On the other hand, seriously, do more people want to be paying money to do their max dps? Wizards, start saving now...

I agree that paying for dps is lame. I don't however see this going away.

Anyway, as I was just saying 'balance' rogues and rangers (aka rogues do a good bit more damage) based on rangers with say 3 or 5 damage arrows.
Let rangers get their dps bonus using 8's. Give rogues the option to increase their dps by a similar amount by spending a similar amount of plat. Aka, rogues can still be on top, if they spend a bit on poison. But for gods sake, please don't make poison use a buff slot, and make it last at least an hour. I have enough every 5-20min clickies.

 

[Aaubert]

Give rogues the option to increase their dps by a similar amount by spending a similar amount of plat. Aka, rogues can still be on top, if they spend a bit on poison. But for gods sake, please don't make poison use a buff slot, and make it last at least an hour. I have enough every 5-20min clickies.

don't love this, but i accept this.

 

[Garluk]

But for gods sake, please don't make poison use a buff slot, and make it last at least an hour. I have enough every 5-20min clickies.

If it lasts for an hour, it will have to be expensive; somewhere in the 100-150pp range.

 

[vistachiri]

Paying for DPS is a lame thing. Rangers can summon themselves 1dmg arrows, or use mage summoned 3dmg. Or spend plat on 4-8dmg arrows. It obviously doesn't help at all to have rangers with variable DPS when comparing DPS balance. There are still no real parses in this thread, but do we consider 8dmg arrows for comparison, or 3, or 1?

The spirit of the rogue suggestion is to allow them to up their DPS by paying plat. This is what any capable ranger does currently (I presume every raiding ranger uses 8dmg arrows...). So it seems like a decent enough idea. On the other hand, seriously, do more people want to be paying money to do their max dps? Wizards, start saving now...

Well here then, dug this out of parses on our boards. As far as I recall this was with frost kings hunting bow+ heartseekers on abom. One would have to ask tverian to be sure though. This is also btw with him botting his mage as well.

http://zomgh4x.bravehost.com/12.18.06/A_gibbering_abomination.html

 

[Alton]

If it lasts for an hour, it will have to be expensive; somewhere in the 100-150pp range.

My thinking is you take the amt a ranger burns through in arrows in an hour and reduce it by a good amount.
Problem with any kind of timer on poison is you're still burning through it when you click then the group breaks, the raid dies and rebuffs for 30mins, etc.
During that time, the ranger stops shooting and isn't burning money.

Anyway, this is all mostly off topic, or at the very least should occur at the very end of the discussion.

I'd love to have Wiz chime in on dps as it currently stands...

 

[penfold]

Is there going to be an upgrade to upper end daggers from the discussion about Tryfaen's dagger not being that much of an upgrade from a demonshear?

And as Alton stated, I'd too like to know if this is getting looked at.

 

[Slippers1]

I don't think there's a way around poisons using a buff slot unless you want poison to work like an aug or something; or to have them work as old-poisons did on live.

Not to mention, a 5-20 minute duration for poison would make a lot more sense than an hour-long duration; and I think would be fine if the poisons were stackable or multi-charge (which they were, on live).

 

[tinkaa]

Could poison me made like "worn" effect - like the stat food? Like, you have an infusion of poison that creates an aura that infects your opponents and you "eat" it?

 

[AdNNon]

Maybe add an aug slot or 2 to all piercing weapons .. and instead of clickies rogues will be able to make augments.. the augments could add poison dmg to the weapon or it could be a poison dot.. or if you had 2 slots both

 

[iaeolan]

Crafted augs that are no drop and no rent

Although putting that aug slot on EVERY piercing weapon just for the sake of 1 class is meh-ish.