Ranger DPS (vs Rogue too!)

One thing concerning our dps is the lack of 17dmg+ mainhand piercers? Rogues can buy 15dmg piercers under or around lvl 50 and then only have to look forward to the mainhand increasing damage only by 1 or 2 for the rest of the rogue's life. I really do not know if an 18dmg piercer would be that overpowered. My Dagger of the Chill's 14 +5cold dmg max backstab, non style is ~5500(crit obv) and that's probably the highest it will go, so backstabs with an 18dmg piercer would be below that. But as it is, the 17dmg piercers that I know of is Summoner dagger, Everlasting Icicle, Demonshear, the one Tryfaen just snagged, and Strategist's Dart (perhaps others exist? /shrug). I was hoping Tryf's would have been an 18dmg just because it's in the most upper end tier.

Maybe it's just me, but the difference between the 17dmg piercers starting with the Twilight Rapier is just added stats, a decremented delay of one or 2, a proc and a lovely backstab mod. And the level difficulty between how hard it is to get a Twilight Rapier and what Tryfaen has, is most definitely a mouthful. Up the Everlasting Icicle/Demonshear/Obsidian Shanker to 18dmg and change a few of the much harder to obtain 16dmg piercers to 17dmg. I know this would effect the overall melee dps and not just backstab dps too :p This may or may not be more tedious than just tweaking the overall backstab damage, i dunno, but it would improve rogue's mainhand dps as well. Whatever works would be dandy, but with rogue piercers only going down in delay and no increases in damage is a bummer.

And pretty much, is an 18dmg piercer that over powering to not put one in?
 
I wasn't aware of this thread, but it just so happens I was chatting with wold and xeld about how the thaz-level rogue dagger is barely better than demonshear, and how rogue pokers seemed pretty dumpy compared to other weapons of the same tier.

If we could get some parses up in this piece, I'd be grateful--it seems so far that rogues suffer much more in the high end raid game than they do in the middle- to low-end one, which suggests a problem with itemization.
 
penfold said:
And pretty much, is an 18dmg piercer that over powering to not put one in?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, yes.

P.S. What's the dmg/del DPS difference between demonshear (17/22) and the shanker (17/20)?

P.P.S. ninja'd by Thinkmeats
 
In raids, rogues tend to die a lotmorethan rangers. Rangers usually die if they try something silly, like tanking, but rogues die to AoE, or to Whirlwin, rampage, etc.

It's obvious that rogue's job is intended to be more dangerous that a ranger's... since rogues are forget to be on melee range. In any case, It's totally unfair the dps situation, specially when you can link a pad controller with autofire to "range attack", and never worry again about auto shooting. Rogues have their uses, yes, but in high end raiding game most mobs will see thru rgue hide, and, with some effort, a ranger can triangularize a named position... so they can scout as well as rogues sometimes (they could do it as well as rogues if track didn't had issues).

I actually agree with itemization being the problem. But I don't think that adding 20 or 25 damage weapons on main hands would be wise. This would, eventually, lead to hp 1000 on a warrior's bp. What I'd suggest may be deemed as silly (since it is a little silly), but could also work increasing the damage output from rogues. I'd suggest a line of ammo slots items which only purposewould be having a +race X modifier. Make some ofthem (more common) mage summonable, and rest of them either quested ordroppable. This way rogues would require some preparation to be more dps than rangers, yes, but I think this solution would go well with the style of an Assasin.

I mean, assasins supposedly do research on their targets, and choose most effective weapon/style for a certain target... this would lead to same thing, rogues doing research, and looking for the item that'd make them more effective against a certain race. If you make these items/spells for magician only dropped in high end zones (like the thaz chanter mezz), you wouldn't be affecting raid game in lower tiers, where it seems to be balanced, and you'd be actually equalizing rogues and rangers, without eliminating adantages inherent to said classes.
 
Could anyone provide some real, useful parses? Atm this thread is just about worthless.

I do find the situation/thread's irony LOL worthy though...
:dance:
 
I believe the % of the damage on the mainhand that affects backstabs needs to be upped, however wiz makes it so say 17 damage does a 2k backstab does more instead, or make it so somehow normal attacks do more damage, say maybe an 18 damage mainhand or 19 max. this would definately make end game rogues a little over rangers so it'd be fair.
 
not high end, but here's logs anyways. bow vs daggers + some wizards if i could get them in range. would have more, but the ones i really beat lando he was meleeing. and the corpse-eater fight i only missed 2 backstabs. i'll edit this or just reply when i find new mobs.

thaf - rog
lando - rng
selrach - wiz

Sultan 1:
thaf (gtrugh's toothl/stormrazor) - 411.34dps -- 41,957dmg
llanoldar (windsinger) - 439.30dps -- 44,369dmg

Sultan 2:
thaf (twilight dagger/stone etched dirk) - 265.07dps -- 43,207dmg
llanoldar (windsinger) - 344.8dps -- 56,547dmg

Seductress:
thaf (twilight/stone etched dirk) - 289.56dps -- 50,963dmg
llanoldar (windsinger +dispelling) - 326.7dps -- 55,866dmg
selrach - 343.66dps -- 61,172dmg

Corpse-Eater
thaf (dagger of the chill/darkweaver's pincer) - 457.49dps -- 61,303dmg
llanoldar (windsinger) - 328.95 -- 44,079dmg

Abom:
thaf (dagger of the chill/stormrazor) - 318.91dps -- 45,604dmg
llanoldar (windsinger) - 415.48dps -- 59,414dmg

Water Mob A:
thaf (twilight/stone etched dirk) - 267.23dps -- 36,878dmg
llanoldar (windsinger) - 338.39dps -- 50,081dmg
selrach - 345.2dps -- 51,780dmg

Water Mob B:
thaf (twilight/stormrazor) - 281.68dps -- 65,067dmg
llanoldar (windsinger) - 338.88dps -- 77,943dmg
 
Alton said:
I know our servers rangers are going to put a price on my head, but I just have to whine a bit. I know I can't be the only one thinking this.
In short, ranger dps in the high-end is either silly over powered, rogues need another tweaking, or we need official word that roles have been redefined.

As it stands now, rangers can outdistance most raid mob aoe's in the game, doing at least rogue dps, while generating less aggro.

I haven't a clue how it parses prior to IP, but for reference I'm talking about Rangers with Woes, and Rogues with Demonshears..

I only started parsing again a week or two ago, but here is a smattering of ranger #'s:
~523dps vs Taesh, (rogue, 371dps, same fight)
~605dps vs. A congealed liquid - lower thaz water trash, L65 iirc - (rogue, 500dps same fight)
~612dps vs. An earthly warden - lower thaz earth trash, yellow iirc - (Rogue, ~410 that fight)

Another thing to add, is that our chanters giantkin'd the rogue (me) through most of these raids/fights, not the ranger.
Silly them are still in the mindset that the rogue is the dps machine...

Anyway, if this is intentional, great. Let me know and I'll get over it.
Otherwise, I'd love to see a GM take a few test characters (easy to dupe 2x uber forsaken's or something) against some kind of test mob.
Click to expand...

Those parse numbers are flukes. Want some more? I can show where I parsed over 1k dps against a cyclops elder because I landed a couple crippling blows for 5k+. I use 8dmg arrows full-time, even in exp groups, except for those rare times I can get Rurho to summon some Heartseekers. On raid targets that are not golem-flagged, I consistently parse in the 350-420 range with a client-side atk rating of ~1556 (WRU SV / Svg :( )

And while I don't generate as much aggro as a rogue, it certainly isn't aggro free. I've pulled aggro off Sald many times just bowing. When he dies, I'm usually one of the first to get summoned unless I've jolted my arse off.
 
Addind selrach on the dps list on seductress is kinda dumb cause seductress is known to have Very High resists to everything ( hi jayalas info ) And yeah i have played a wizard on a seductress kill.
 
Latten said:
Addind selrach on the dps list on seductress is kinda dumb cause seductress is known to have Very High resists to everything ( hi jayalas info ) And yeah i have played a wizard on a seductress kill.
Click to expand...
There are ways to get around that though. A wizard can still do decent DPS on Seductress.
 
Latten said:
Addind selrach on the dps list on seductress is kinda dumb cause seductress is known to have Very High resists to everything ( hi jayalas info ) And yeah i have played a wizard on a seductress kill.
Click to expand...

Use lure?
 
anyone who has played or played with a 65 ranger with good AAs knows that they're the best melee DPS in the game. They shouldn't be. Wiz, or someone, (i can't recall who said it) thinks that 'because its annoying to consta-click a button, or risk pissing off the gods by using a gamepad w/ a turbo, that balances ranger DPS.'

If you wanna give rangers to be powerful because they have to spammificate a button, thats stupid, but fine. They still shouldn't be where they are in relation to rogues.

but, going by that logic, maybe we should force rogues to stab themselves in the arm with a sewing needle every 5 seconds, and boost their DPS according to how annoying it is.
 
To put it simply (And I'd like to see this argued)

Rangers currently benefit from:
Avoiding AEs, Rampage, Whirlwind, etc.
Have lower Agro compared to Rogues (Aside from Jolt)
Have utility spells (Notably CoTP, along with other self-beneficials, I'm not gonna pretend that their utility goes further than that)

Rogues benefit from:
Needing to press a button half of the time Rangers do to put out comparable dps.

Sorry, but rangers need to be toned down. Their bow dps should be around their melee dps. Otherwise, it is a completely unfair advantage over rogues. I won't even get into it over the advantages they have DPS-wise over monks, since monks have other uses, but seriously... if they aren't toned down (Or if rogues aren't boosted a bit), where does this leave rogues? They have nothing on a ranger at the end game unless they are doing more DPS to a noticeable and consistent degree.

(And the argument for needing to spam range attack-- please. I'm not buying it. I spam 3 (Flying Kick) because I'm too lazy to watch for it to repop. I'm sure it has taken years off of my life :tinfoil: Maybe monks should parse ~400dps with planar gear since we have to move around a lot more on raids ;))

Either way, currently this thread is Rogue1's Testimony vs. Ranger1's Testimony. I think it is pretty clear (now that someone had the balls to post about it :p ) that this really needs to be looked at by Wiz.
 
I'd also be of the opinion rangers need a bit of a tone down. From what we were seeing parsewise, hands down even while botted they weren't only best melee dps (while ranged of course) but outparsing every single caster we had too, on just about every fight. To put it in perspective we're comparing our (former) ranger who at that point was around 180-220 aa's at the times I'm referencing with

A) 100ish aa rogue
B) 100ish aa and 200ish aa wizards
C) 250-290ish aa mage with bladewind, 150ish aa mage, and a low end one which was botted by the ranger (still doing a decent amount. Thus actually probably lowering the ranger's dps b/c he was paying attention to 2 characters)
D) 1 180ish-200ish aa monk
E) 1 150ish-170ish aa'ed necro (although necro parsing is admittedly fubar)

Generally runner up was either aisling or strylok, generally we were approximately 30-60 dps behind (pet included in my #'s). Stylok was admittedly lower than usual in some fights as he was also usually botting strydoc in the later parses). Heartseekers were also on the ranger every single time. I did manage to beat him once on Rymaz, by approximately 20 dps. This was b/c: A) malosini landed immediately right after gloves, which landed on pull, giving me more time to nuke, and less wasted mana on debuffing B) DPS strategy 1B (yes, thats what it's named on my spelllist lol) Maelstrom of electricity, scars of sigil, manastorm, bladewind, repeat until dead. C) I got 2 resists (each rain resists, through one hit of the rain) through the entire fight. D) Pet was on pretty much until enrage, part of the way through that as well (for about 2%) after which I realized enrage and recalled him. E) host of the elements hit at 50ish% F) frenzied burnout was on pretty much the entire fight as it only lasted like a minute. Now the thing that gets me is...all the stops were pulled out..with an incredible amount of luck being present as well....and the ranger still came close. Very close in fact.

Do I think it's fair that they outparse rogues? Maybe, but under no circumstances whatsoever should melee dps, the benefit of which is that it's sustained (ie no oom) be blowing casters (burst dps) out of the water completely. Sure they can actually go out of arrows. Though with the proper aa's and having been properly prepared for a fight (raid or group) this would be incredibly rare to happen.
 
i'm not overtly stressed about rangers in relation to caster DPS at this moment, I think that the biggest thing that needs to change is the rogue DPS.

Allie stated that with an 18 damage piercer, rogues would go overboard... could this be explained? if rogues see a 50 dps increase from a 16-17 damage piercer, how much would a 17-18 be?
 
vistachiri said:
I'd also be of the opinion rangers need a bit of a tone down. From what we were seeing parsewise, hands down even while botted they weren't only best melee dps (while ranged of course) but outparsing every single caster we had too, on just about every fight. *snip*

C) 250-290ish aa mage with bladewind, 150ish aa mage, and a low end one which was botted by the ranger (still doing a decent amount. Thus actually probably lowering the ranger's dps b/c he was paying attention to 2 characters)
Click to expand...

You are talking about a ranger with a raid dropped bow. Comparing him to casters that are NOT raid equipped (relics are essential for realistic comparisons) is like comparing apples and mazda rotary engines (yeah, I know that doesn't make sense, but that is exactly my point).

Mages benefit minimally from high AA counts. After about 150 you have reached your DPS potential.

Since Endless Quiver was replaced with Returning Shot, I've spent between 5 and 10K pp on arrow parts. How would the rest of you feel if every day you wanted to play you were told "Sure, you can join our group/raid, but you have to pay 350pp. Everyone plays for free but you."

Are rogues currently underpowered? Probably a bit. Are rangers currently overpowered? Probably a bit less than rogues are underpowered.
 
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