Raid policy thread clarification

[Nodnal]

If they both zoned in at the exact same time, then why would one of the guilds start attacking the mob before a decision had been handed out? If rushing to to be the first to engage is the rule of thumb, then there may be even more issues. If both guilds get their at the "exact" same time, both guilds should wait until a GM can intervene and then both guilds can provide cases of who was their first via screenshots/logs. If no evidence can be given, then a simple die roll between the opposing guilds seems to be the best strategy.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding the situation, but claiming a wing because you bum rushed another guild is pretty weird.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

All wrapped up in a neat little package. So you see, while rulings may seem wrong on surface, there could be any number of circumstances surrounding them to validate them, as I've already stated, and it seems to be the case with the ruling of the situation that spawned this post.

Maybe the raiding population at large should stop being such elitist crass little shits to eachother, and there would be no need for generic OR complex rule structures.

If they both zoned in at the exact same time, then why would one of the guilds start attacking the mob before a decision had been handed out? If rushing to to be the first to engage is the rule of thumb, then there may be even more issues. If both guilds get their at the "exact" same time, both guilds should wait until a GM can intervene and then both guilds can provide cases of who was their first via screenshots/logs. If no evidence can be given, then a simple die roll between the opposing guilds seems to be the best strategy.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding the situation, but claiming a wing because you bum rushed another guild is pretty weird.

And therein validates precisely what has been said before. Without actually meaning to, im sure, Felyn has now found a way to bend the rule structure without breaking it. That is exactly why every nuance and possible situation is not mapped out. I am certain the staff did not rule in favor of "bum rushing", and speculation on ruling of situations that you admittedly know nothing about, "is pretty weird".

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

If they both zoned in at the exact same time, then why would one of the guilds start attacking the mob before a decision had been handed out?

In this instance, one had 12, the other didn't. It's 12 OR capable force, and capable force has to be proven by killing something. If both had 12, whoever had 12 in first would have it. Someone has to have 12 first, since only one client can connect at a time. The only situation where there would be a race to engage is if neither have 12. Possible? Sure. Likely? No. Has it ever happend? Idk.

Maybe the raiding population at large should stop being such elitist crass little shits to eachother, and there would be no need for generic OR complex rule structures.

QFT.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Maybe the raiding population at large should stop being such elitist crass little shits to eachother, and there would be no need for generic OR complex rule structures.

I fear you're mistaken on both counts. Shout remained calm during most of the decision, and to my knowledge nobody from either guild threw a fit; things stayed quite civil, and people from both sides should be commended for that.

What's more, since there will inevitably be times two guilds end up going for the same target at the same time, even unintentionally, race conditions have to be covered by the rules. We would all *like* to live in a world fairly governable by simple laws, in the same way that Austin Powers wants a toilet made of solid gold, but it's very necessary to address these types of precedent-setting situations.

If they both zoned in at the exact same time, then why would one of the guilds start attacking the mob before a decision had been handed out?

Indeed, they probably wouldn't. Both guilds pretty much just chilled out FD under the mob for the bulk of the time staff deliberated.

 

[Nodnal]

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought Foolra said that GS attacked the FF first and therefore were the ones to claim the wing.

Also, as much as everyone wants me to be the one to "bend the rules" I am usually the one trying to sort shit out if there is ever confusion between two guilds. The fact that a lot of people hate me doesn't mean that I am always out there trying to get shit done my way.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

I fear you're mistaken on both counts. Shout remained calm during most of the decision, and to my knowledge nobody from either guild threw a fit; things stayed quite civil, and people from both sides should be commended for that.

Its commendable they were civil to eachother, sure, but in no way is it a precedent setting situation; I simply think you misunderstand what I was saying, which was that ego and intolerance get in the way of compromise. If guilds would set aside their egos, and inter guild intolerances, they could come to a conclusion that does not involve staff ruling. I dont pretend things should or will ever be happy and sunshine and rainbows, but some of the most ridiculous arguments come out of inter guild intolerances and egos clashing.

Also, as much as everyone wants me to be the one to "bend the rules" I am usually the one trying to sort shit out if there is ever confusion between two guilds. The fact that a lot of people hate me doesn't mean that I am always out there trying to get shit done my way.

It was a statement made to show a point, not an indication of your actions or intent. Stop getting bent out of shape.

 

[Manguadi]

No, it doesn't. The claim belonged to Goon Squad before Bane even attacked the flare fiend. Because neither force had demonstrated capability by engaging a mob, the force with more than 12 takes the claim, which the goons did in this case. This situation is like this ONLY because both guilds essentially got there at exactly the same time. If Bane had begun fighting the flare fiend, the claim would have belonged to Bane, or if Bane had had 12 in the zone first, etc.

You said that 12 could claim it unless one guild begins clearing. This is what bane did when they engaged the flare fiend after 12 showed up. Unless you misspoke, there is still a contradiction. There is no timeline to engaging a mob in the policy and the rule gives no precedence to 12 over the part about engaging.

A force of 12 makes no claim on a zone as per the stated policy without also doing something else. Engaging, buffing, whatever has always been necessary to make a claim. When fusion zoned into PoA the same moment as bane so long ago fusion charged in (with 10 while bane had far more) and started fighting trash while bane twiddled their thumbs at zone in. The claim went to fusion.

GS never engaged the flare fiend and made their claim by providing a SS of 13 by itself. This seems to me to be in direct contradiction to the policy.

The only situation where there would be a race to engage is if neither have 12. Possible? Sure. Likely? No. Has it ever happend? Idk.

This situation has occurred multiple times and 12 alone is both not enough as per the stated policy and per a history of rulings on this situation.

All of staff who support this ruling are crying "12 is enough" when it never has been, nor is it particularly fair, nor are there arguments given for why 12 alone is sufficient to claim a wing. In order to say "12 is enough", is enough, you have to contradict policy and you need to explain why it's better than 12 + engage and you need to explain why there should be a change from policy in the past.

 

[Ravik]

I am a little confused on capable force and the 12 character claim rule.

If capable force means clearing trash?( is this correct by what I have read in this thread?)

If guild A has 10 chars clearing trash , lets say it`s a hour before their scheduled raid time, they bot up and start clearing knowing that the 9 to 5 part of their force will be logging in within the hour to kill what they want.

While clearing , guild B zones in with 12 or even a full 18man raid , do the 10 chars from guild A still hold the claim? and if so, for how long would any guild be able to claim waiting for people to get home from work/school/whatever?

Also UT trash and many of other zones can be one grouped , is capable force required to be more the one group? It seems without a actual number to use as claim there will be more tough decisions for GMs in regards to capable force, after all , the number of characters needed to achieve capable force changes based on what tier those characters are geared too.

 

[Wesell]

I am a little confused on capable force and the 12 character claim rule.

If capable force means clearing trash?( is this correct by what I have read in this thread?)

It looks pretty unambiguous to me. Here's how I read it: you can get the claim by getting 12 in the zone/wing or by demonstrating that your smaller force is capable by clearing some trash. In either event you can't be completely inactive, you have to be either engaging or preparing to engage some trash or something (you can't just zone in to squat).

 

[cac43]

GS never engaged the flare fiend and made their claim by providing a SS of 13 by itself. This seems to me to be in direct contradiction to the policy.

You seem to be not properly reading or wantonly ignoring the description of the events that occurred and explanation of the decision by the various devs and admins. Both Bane and GS zoned in at nearly the same time before either guild had engaged any mob. Bane had 11 members and GS had 13, proven by screenshot. Since Bane lacked the required 12 and had to engage/kill a mob to show capable force, until they did so, they lacked any claim. GS, having the requisite 12+ characters, automatically establish a claim to the wing of their choice. Therefore GS wasn't required to rush to the flare fiend and engage it to prove their claim. This case essentially established that a capable force claim can only be demonstrated by engaging/killing a mob and until that is done the claim on a zone can be lost to another guild that shows up with 12+ characters.

The situation where this gets very sticky is where 2 raid forces containing 12+ characters zone in at nearly the same time as Nodnal pointed out.

And to Ravik,

Having engaged/killed some trash before Guild B arrived, Guild A would have claim to the zone for some reasonable period of time (I believe one hour was mentioned) after their final kill or until they relinquish it in some other manner (such as leaving and going to a different raid zone).

 

[Manguadi]

I am not ignoring the order of events at all. In fact what I am disputing is that 13 is enough to establish a claim. 13 in the zone is not a claim to a mob. There is language both in the policy and in a history of rulings to show this.

11 engaging a mob and winning does count as a claim, and this can be shown both in the policy and in a history of rulings.

GS, having the requisite 12+ characters, automatically establish a claim to the wing of their choice.

Essentially, I'm saying that this is false and has always been. Particularly not to the "wing of their choice".

I'm fairly sure that most people at this point recognize that this was an incorrect ruling. There's nothing wrong with a gm making a mistake or even a consensus of them, but this is again why there is a need for a public ruling history.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

This situation has occurred multiple times and 12 alone is both not enough as per the stated policy and per a history of rulings on this situation.

Right, it's 12 and "is either actively clearing or bringing in more people / buffing" according to the Raid and buff/rez bots policy in Policy Plaza. Unless GS failed to buff, they had claim since Bane had yet to prove capable force by killing something.

All of staff who support this ruling are crying "12 is enough" when it never has been, nor is it particularly fair, nor are there arguments given for why 12 alone is sufficient to claim a wing. In order to say "12 is enough", is enough, you have to contradict policy and you need to explain why it's better than 12 + engage and you need to explain why there should be a change from policy in the past.

Actually staff aren't crying, nor are they saying "12 is enough" without "actively clearing or bringing in more people / buffing", which has been the policy for a very long time. They do they need to explain anything to you or give you arguments why. And it doesn't matter if you think it's particularly fair. If you want to make demands, go create your own sandbox. If you decide to stay here, phrasing your requests in a less confrontational way will get you much better results.

Edit: added link to the relevant thread in Policy Plaza

 

[Manguadi]

In your last post you said precisely "whoever had 12 in first would have it". Going back through the thread, you are also the first staffer to mention anything about buffing / bringing more people in / engaging.

As for policy changes, whether or not you want to defend them to me is your prerogative, but the repetition of the words "gs had 12 in first and claimed it" throughout this thread makes me believe that no one thinks you have to be doing anything other than having 12. in.

Also no one is disputing my saying that 13 fd under a flare fiend does not count as 12 + doing something.

As for fairness, that is the purpose of this policy. Do you think that having 13 in first is more fair than if other people are actively doing something?

edit: Removed this section and reworded post. You're right I'm being inflammatory and it's not fair.

 

[Untasid]

Unless GS failed to buff, they had claim since Bane had yet to prove capable force by killing something.

This may be irrelevant to the thread, but this was indeed the case in the scenario in question. Bane was buffing / getting ready to pull the demon as goons flopped. While goons were flopped under the demon, bane pulled and killed it.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

you are also the first staffer to mention anything about buffing / bringing more people in / engaging.

That's already in the policy.. have you actually read it, or are you getting indignant over something that is already covered?

 

[Manguadi]

I'm getting indignant because that clause was never met by goon squad. As in posts by foolra and gunder before the most recent, "it didn't matter because GS had 13 in first".

I've also quoted the policy and gone into specifics about it several times, so please read all my posts before making that accusation.

 

[Malleus2]

Goons normally form up and buff in house then move to a target once we are ready to roll. I was not on Malleus last nite but if our force was there we were ready to engage. Engage was likely held while Meyers attempted to get ahold of staff to ensure the claim to the wing was made fairly and we werent attacking a mob Bane had legit claim to.

 

[Manguadi]

Goons normally form up and buff in house then move to a target once we are ready to roll. I was not on Malleus last nite but if our force was there we were ready to engage. Engage was likely held while Meyers attempted to get ahold of staff to ensure the claim to the wing was made fairly and we werent attacking a mob Bane had legit claim to.

This is fine but it still does not constitute a claim.

 

[Malleus2]

This is fine but it still does not constitute a claim.

I wasn't saying it was. What I was attempting to explain was that by our usual MO we won't be claiming a wing by buffing an adequate force there.

What it all boils down to is this might have been avoided by a bit clearer language in the policy thread (no we can't have rules for every possible scenario but we can work to ensure existing rules are clear).

Goons were ready to engage and Meyers hesitated because he wanted to do the right thing and not jump someone elses claim. In the end staff had to weigh the evidence and apply the rules to the best of their ability. Regardless of the outcome one guild was going to be unhappy. We can only hope that this discussion will lead to clarification of wording that in turn will lead to less need for staff involvement to establish the legitimacy of claims.

 

[Wesell]

This is fine but it still does not constitute a claim.

12 + more on the way does give them claim though, right?

The function of this rule is to assign the claim to a zone or wing in the case that multiple forces are trying to get in at the same time (which needs to be sorted somehow). The 12 is an arbitrary number used to decide the winner. The rule might be simpler if it was just based on who killed a trash mob first, but I guess they didn't want raids to feel pressured to zerg a trash mob to guarantee their claim if they aren't ready.