Raid policy thread clarification

[smadcatc]

I am requesting that the Raid Policy thread be updated to reflect rules that are not clear.

Reasons for wanting posted clarification:
1) Have something GM's can refer to (so rulings are faster)
2) Have something players can refer to so GM's don't have to be called upon
3) So rulings are all the same

Currently:
Right of way
Whichever guild / raid force first gets 12 players or a capable force to a raid zone or encounter, and is either actively clearing or bringing in more people / buffing has rights to it. It is not accepable to just sit still for hours and wait for reinforcments, however, so "bringing in more people" only covers people who will arrive within a short timespan. The exception is for raid zones like prison that are large enough to be divided into wings (inner prison would be one claimable area for instance). Once that force has less than 12 players in the zone for an hour or more, the claim ceases (so you can't just jump in if they wipe unless they aren't coming back within an hour).

Recent rulings (that I am aware of):

1) The first guild to engage a mob in a wing that they are capable of (Eg. demon in ToT for non-well ringed guilds) gets the claim
2) Having 12 people in a zone gives you the claim over another guild who is "bringing in more people / buffing" or about to engage WITHOUT 12 in that wing, but were there first. Therefore that section should either be modified or just taken out.

Feel free to add anything else that I am unaware of.

 

[Tyvec-a-tron]

I'm with you that this has needed to be written down somewhere.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

Isnt #1 covered by the first sentence in the policy, which is posted in Policy Plaza?

2 seems like a wrong ruling on the surface, but not knowing anything regarding the circumstances surrounding it, I couldnt say, since there could be many situations in which it would be a perfectly valid ruling.

Rules are generic for a reason, to allow rulings based on circumstance, as has been rehashed thousands of times. Trying to cover every exception and circumstance with a complex rule structure is near impossible, but also allows people to not break written rules while still doing things they know they shouldnt.

 

[smadcatc]

#1 is sorta covered already, but no one knows what really constitutes as being in the wing since the demon really isnt. Even the GMs that helped us before took some time to figure it out. Also this seems to keep occurring and honestly its just easier to point to a oh hey look its posted!

 

[Manguadi]

The problem is a history of contradictory rulings. If first-time rulings were posted publically it would both speed future rulings and prevent conscientious players from petitioning in the first place.

 

[smadcatc]

GDI manguadi! I was about to edit my post to say that.

2 seems like a wrong ruling on the surface, but not knowing anything regarding the circumstances surrounding it, I couldnt say, since there could be many situations in which it would be a perfectly valid ruling.

If multiple GM's and admins rule in a certain way, I doubt it is a wrong ruling. Rather I see it as either #1) Failure to follow already laid out rules or #2) The rules aren't clear enough. In the particular case I am referring to, "Whichever guild / raid force first gets 12 players or a capable force to a raid zone or encounter, and is either actively clearing or bringing in more people / buffing has rights to it" is pretty clear and easy to interpret. I will try to catch you on in irc or something to discuss.

I would just really like to see GMs and Admins keep their rulings consistent and I believe clarification would definitely help. If the current rulings don't fit into the rules, then I would like to see the rules changed.

 

[Ikaa|LoveYums]

Well you quoted the first 2/3 of what i said, but seem to have missed the rest. Either way, im not the one it needs to be discussed with; I was just offering an insight to your request. I dont see how "being in the wing" is confusing in ToT, but I wasn't there.

To get more specific: "2) Having 12 people in a zone gives you the claim over another guild who is "bringing in more people / buffing" or about to engage WITHOUT 12 in that wing, but were there first. Therefore that section should either be modified or just taken out."

If I'm understanding what you are saying correctly, then the ruling was contradictory to #1, since a force of twelve pushed out a lesser force who was there first, and actively buffing/bringing in more. Now as I said, there could be reasons why it would be acceptable to do that, but on the surface, it's against posted policy.

But then you go and state that the posted policy is pretty clear and easy to interpret, so I'm not sure if I fully understand what your request is meant to accomplish.

I'll state again that there is a reason, and a good one that rules are generic. If the staff needs to clarify rulings or use them as guidelines, I doubt they will be made public, because there are many things that simply arent for the players to have; on top of that, people will find ways around complex rule structures that try to cover every angle, then whine that they werent breaking any rules when they are punished. Hell people whine when they DO break hard posted rules. Some asshat once appealed his name change, from Gandalf, which is clearly stated as an example of things not to name yourself in the naming policy.

If your request is more continuity among the staff rulings, then ok, make that request.. but asking for staff doings to be made public, and into a complex rule structure.. well.. good luck.

 

[Manguadi]

Basically I was talking about a legal history. In one specific case that bane and tu encountered it would look like this:

Subject: Definition of the beginning of a "wing" in tot.

Conflict: Guild A engages and wipes to flare fiend by porting without well ring. Guild B uses well ring and enters wing and begins clearing trash.

Ruling: If a guild is not in possession of a well ring the wing begins with the flare fiend. If a guild possess a well ring the wing begins with the first trash mob in the wing.

Resolution: Guild A was given control of the wing.

It takes maybe 45 seconds to write this up and saves each GM to encounter this in the future both time and trouble.

 

[Foolra]

The situation that this post is about was this: Bane was in ToT with 11 people, some of whom had hailed down to the flare fiend in front of the intended wing, some of whom were still at the greater elemental. No mob engagement had been made. Goon squad comes in with 13 people (SS to prove) and hails down to elemental. At this point, the claim is contested and already belongs to goon squad, because although Bane had a "capable force" at this point, they have not proven it by using that force. The fact that Bane engaged the flare fiend AFTER Goon Squad shows up is irrelevant to the situation. The idea of 12 warm bodies is still a clincher IF and ONLY IF the other guild has not proven capability with a lesser force by engaging/killing a mob.

Being FD beneath a mob is the same as standing 20 feet out in front of it waiting. Thus no claim is made, and right of way is given to goon squad by having MORE than 12 people BEFORE Bane does. Nothing else matters.

As for overall consistency among GMs, I'm all for it. This ruling was discussed among multiple people before being made, and was the agreed upon concensus. The ruling that was made fit the already posted policy. As Ikaa said, having every single contingency thought out and accounted for in a complex rule structure will never work, simply because it's not possible to plan for every contingency. There will always be circumstances that need to be taken into account, and thus we have a solid rule that is applied to a situation, and a resolution is reached that is in line with that rule, even if not 100% explicitly stated.

 

[smadcatc]

The decision was fine, thank you for clarifying it and I respect any decision that was made by the GMs. I was asking for consistency and adding common situations to the thread so that there isn't so much time wasted on both the players and GM's part every time.

And no, this post is not only about a situation that happened today. As manguadi stated, other situations have happened before and needed GM intervention (and I'm sure other guilds have/will). I have asked before for the rules to be clarified on the post so that they don't keep happening.

I understand how a complex rule set cannot be made and some rule clarifications can't be made public. I had just thought this was a good idea to save everyone some time (who wants to waste time petitioning and having to have it answered?).

Also, I am sort of confused here of the 12 person rule. It always applies unless you intend to do the encounter with less than 12? Is that what you are getting at Zaela?

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

[robopirateninja]

I think they are saying that a smaller force actively clearing trumps a larger force who shows up later, but a smaller force "just chillin" has no claim if a large enough one shows up.

 

[Foolra]

The decision was fine, thank you for clarifying it and I respect any decision that was made by the GMs. I was asking for consistency and adding common situations to the thread so that there isn't so much time wasted on both the players and GM's part every time.

And no, this post is not only about a situation that happened today. As manguadi stated, other situations have happened before and needed GM intervention (and I'm sure other guilds have/will). I have asked before for the rules to be clarified on the post so that they don't keep happening.

I understand how a complex rule set cannot be made and some rule clarifications can't be made public. I had just thought this was a good idea to save everyone some time (who wants to waste time petitioning and having to have it answered?).

Also, I am sort of confused here of the 12 person rule. It always applies unless you intend to do the encounter with less than 12? Is that what you are getting at Zaela?

Thanks for the clarifications.

I absolutely agree that there should be better communication among the staff. We have these forums, and IRC, but at some point you have to realize that these are all people volunteering their time, who don't always get the daily briefing memos to know what the latest policy is. I think we strive to show consistency and unity in all manners of being staff members, but some things do get missed in the shuffle or miscommunicated. If it isn't already under way, I will personally try to start a staff system wherein we communicate these types of issues. Unfortunately, the way the system is setup, sometimes you have to wait while we talk it out. It only goes as fast as we can type. It would be pretty damn cool if we were all sitting in Dalaya Headquarters in Sweden or wherever, but that isn't the case.

And I don't say this as a way of saying "Screw off we don't get a paycheck so deal." If the staff members didn't care about this game and about its players, we wouldn't put the time in that we do. I say it merely so that people realize where we are coming from in terms of being disjointed sometimes, whether it is because someone is out of town, or is busy with real life, or is in a different time zone, etc.

As for the "capable force" clarification, essentially what you said holds true. Let's use an example of a situation from a few months back. Guild A has 10 people and has been clearing to King Rymaz in Stormkeep. This group of 10 people has killed him in the past with a similar strength force. A group of 12 shows up and says they should have the claim because the first group has less than 12. At this point, the "capable force" aspect of the rule kicks in, and we rule in favor of the group of 10.

Obviously "capable force" is a subjective quality, but I think a very necessary one, as people progress in gear and experience. Encounters become easier. Some backfarming is done, etc. The only way to "prove" you are "capable" of doing something is to do it. If the conflict arises prior to this proving, the rule of 12 takes over, since it is just a basic claim situation. If the conflict occurs AFTER the proving, the capable force takes it, or they're not capable and they lose it.

The GM ruling on the situation will have to make a judgement call on whether they believe a group is capable of killing a named they have cleared to, but if they are capable of clearing trash to that named, then they have time to bring people there to bolster their forces, the same way you might do with a group of 12 clearing trash before bringing someone in. Obviously it would not be allowed for a group to clear trash to a named and then squat for hours.

Man, reading back over this, I'm going cross-eyed. It can get complicated, but I think it boils down to this. If two guilds race to a zone/wing, the first person to 12 wins it UNLESS one of the groups begins clearing with a "capable" force (they can kill trash) AND continues to bring in people if needed to kill the named. No squatting for hours.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Manguadi]

Starting to clear should really be the only relevant measure here. I am not familiar with the situation under discussion, but you could have 50 thousand people in a wing doing nothing and if some capable force starts to kill things those 50 thousand people would need to leave.

Showing up with 13 is no more claim than being there first with a capable force. Claiming doesn't begin until mobs are engaged, regardless of force size.

edit: As for foolra's comments on the volunteer staff and communication issues, those are all the more reasons for a more formalized structure. This game has always been designed more or less intuitively, and it's a testament to those volunteers that it works as well as it does. But it is still strictly worse than a formalized system for everything from item design to gm policies.

 

[smadcatc]

Actually mang, the first to engage doesn't matter if the one raid has 12 in already (see Foolra's first post).

 

[Manguadi]

Actually mang, the first to engage doesn't matter if the one raid has 12 in already (see Foolra's first post).

This is wrong unless policy has changed recently. If it has then it's stupid because the old way makes way more sense.

edit: Reviewing wiz's stated policy makes my position clear. You must both have 12 or capable force and be actively clearing or be buffing/bringing more characters up.

To simplify it looks something like this:

claiming requires
a) 12 or capable force
b) actively clearing (or wiping) or buffing/porting more up

So having 13 people there accomplishes nothing without some active effort (like wizards going back to get more or buffs being cast or people zoning in). By this policy you have no claim to a wing with 13 people fd under a flare fiend, for example.

After doing a little more research into the situation it looks like bane had claim to the wing as soon as they began to cast buffs, provided their force was considered capable. Goon Squad could not make a claim until they engaged the mob or all got up and started buffing. Once Bane successfully killed the flare fiend they established that their force was capable, making the claim pretty much indisputable.

1000th edit: Foolra mentioned that capable force is subjective and really depends on some nonsense about a past history or something. A capable force doesn't need to be able to kill a boss to be considered a capable force. A capable force can just kill trash and leave all the same, provided they can kill the trash. By no means do you have to be able to or even prove you have a chance to defeat a boss.

sorry for all the edits but this stuff makes me angry:

If two guilds race to a zone/wing, the first person to 12 wins it UNLESS one of the groups begins clearing with a "capable" force (they can kill trash) AND continues to bring in people if needed to kill the named.

Contradicts

Bane was in ToT with 11 people, some of whom had hailed down to the flare fiend in front of the intended wing, some of whom were still at the greater elemental. No mob engagement had been made. Goon squad comes in with 13 people (SS to prove) and hails down to elemental. At this point, the claim is contested and already belongs to goon squad, because although Bane had a "capable force" at this point, they have not proven it by using that force. The fact that Bane engaged the flare fiend AFTER Goon Squad shows up is irrelevant to the situation. The idea of 12 warm bodies is still a clincher IF and ONLY IF the other guild has not proven capability with a lesser force by engaging/killing a mob.

Because the former quote is precisely what happened. Although for all the words in the first quote it might as well just read: the first group to engage and wins gets claim.

And this is precisely why I advocate posting the damn rulings every time they are made. In my personal experience and from other people's stories I can recount a fistful of situations where this has come up and been ruled both ways.

 

[wolfwalkerEci]

Considering buffing takes a whole 60-90 seconds max unless you are a retard I go with this
(a) 12 or capable force
(b) Killing stuff
Killing the first trash mob then sitting somewhere for however long you want is bs. get out of zone. At the tier of the game that is in dispute being able to kill the named is not in question, if you are back farming like poa/pot with 1 group thats different.
From what i heard from both sides I believe the staff made a good call.

This zone is just nothing but trouble with the way the elementals / wings work. Im sure that the same exact situation could have turned out in 3 different ways. At least foolra looked at the situation and tried his best to accomidate everyone.

ToT = guild grief similiar in tone to Old Exodus cockblocking PR.

 

[Xardon]

Killing the first trash mob then sitting somewhere for however long you want is bs.

Typically, if they successfully kill trash, and have more on the way, etc, we give them 1 hour, if they are sitting and doing nothing after killing 1 mob, similar to raid wipe rules. However, I recommend that people be intelligent, if you bring a group of 6 to ToT and chain wipe to a flare fiend and try tell us "oh we're trying and capable" we'll tell you to leave because we can obviously tell what is or is not a capable force.

But yes as stated, either 12 people there staking a claim, OR capable force actively killing trash etc. is fine. That's how I view it if I was to deal with the situation.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Note that "capable force" cannot, by definition, be demonstrated without pulling trash and killing it. We will absolutely not include "could these people kill a trash mob? idk that cleric is a little shy on mana!" theorycrafting into the rules.

edit:

In my personal experience and from other people's stories I can recount a fistful of situations where this has come up and been ruled both ways.

You know of a situation in which a force of <12 kicked out a force of 12 from a zone without having to clear trash?

edit again: Aight, found out what he's referring to.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

Just a couple of comments:

Ruling: If a guild is not in possession of a well ring the wing begins with the flare fiend. If a guild possess a well ring the wing begins with the first trash mob in the wing.

It doesn't matter from where you begin killing the trash in the wing. The flare fiend is obviously part of the wing, as there is no reason to kill it otherwise. It doesn't matter what trash you kill in the wing. The same situation can occur in OP, where you can either engage from the entrance or use the Taesh ring to port in; trash is trash, wherever you are in the wing.

And for those who want all the rulings written down, having all decisions written down would lead to a volume of records that would be too huge to read, much less remember. Additionally, multiple decisions could seemingly be in conflict depending on the individual circumstances. Those decisions would have to be interpreted, and different sides could argue different decisions should be made based on the same set of previous decisions. (Sound familiar yet?) So until we introduce the Lawer and Judge classes ported over from LegalQuest, I think allowing the GMs to enforce the general rules based on the spirit of them is a much better way of handling things here.

(For the record, I'm speaking from the player perspective; I don't participate in these types of GM activities as a dev.)

 

[Foolra]

Contradicts

No, it doesn't. The claim belonged to Goon Squad before Bane even attacked the flare fiend. Because neither force had demonstrated capability by engaging a mob, the force with more than 12 takes the claim, which the goons did in this case. This situation is like this ONLY because both guilds essentially got there at exactly the same time. If Bane had begun fighting the flare fiend, the claim would have belonged to Bane, or if Bane had had 12 in the zone first, etc.