Raid policy thread clarification

Wesell said:
12 + more on the way does give them claim though, right?

The function of this rule is to assign the claim to a zone or wing in the case that multiple forces are trying to get in at the same time (which needs to be sorted somehow). The 12 is an arbitrary number used to decide the winner. The rule might be simpler if it was just based on who killed a trash mob first, but I guess they didn't want raids to feel pressured to zerg a trash mob to guarantee their claim if they aren't ready.
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This is the discussion I've been hoping to get started. I think that 12 + porting up constitutes a claim, but 11+ porting up does not. This is because 11 can't establish itself as a claim-worthy force until they've actually fought something.

However, in this specific case, if there were two wizards for example and one was in house or whatever porting up a second group of goons, or if one gated back after porting the first while the claiming force went fd under the mob, then yes, it would constitute a claim.

But a group of 13 by itself complete with wizards that need to be sent back later or after the flare fiend is dead is not a claiming force. The action is in the activity of porting.

Also, while there is currently no policy for this specific case, I think a group of 11 that is currently buffing in preparation for engaging should have the chance to prove itself as a capable force. Basically bane proved its preparedness and worthiness by engaging first.
 
Manguadi, I've just spent ten fruitless minutes trying to figure out what it is you're trying to advocate. You seem to be talking about clarifying the rules, but you've suggested no actual clarifications; most of your posts seem to be subtly griping about the recent ruling, which you nevertheless appear to understand was the correct decision based on da law o da land. Needless to say, I'm confused as hell. Any help you could provide would be appreciated.

At first blush, you appear to be arguing for a random grab-bag of issues that would just so happen to have reversed the recent ruling, without considering whether or not they'd help any other situation past the one you were just in. It's easy to understand where that kind of thing comes from, and everyone does it some times, but it doesn't make for good policy and it certainly isn't enough to support a change in it.
 
I wasn't involved in the situation at all. I've been taking two issues here:

1) A claim cannot be made by having 13 under a flare fiend, or 13 in a zone, or 13 anywhere without some other activity. My reading of gunder and foolra's posts seem to say pretty clearly that 13 can do just this. It takes something more. My anger has stemmed from the fact that no one has stepped up and said that goon squad met criteria a and criteria b for claiming a wing, which makes me think that they did not.

2) Because there is no history of policy decisions there are contradictory rulings. If there was a history of such rulings as a reference it would establish precedents that expedite future decisions and prevent many of these situations from becoming disputes at all.
 
Zaela said:
I only saw things from my periphery, but the way I heard it, GS petitioned rather than trying to steal mobs that they weren't sure would be there's. If you really want to hold that against them, I wouldn't mind replacing the "capable force" rule with just jailing any guilds who can't figure it out for themselves. It's bad enough without making it a race to the first hit and throwing in claims of KSing and all that.
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Since part of claiming has always involved some kind of action, bane's choice to attack it was prudent. Also, since bane was there first and waiting for others to arrive in order to engage, GS's entrance would have been a cause to take action.

There have been rulings in the past that gave the zone to 10 people who engaged first when both guilds ported in at the same time. In this particular situation bane had 12+ hanging out at zone-in and fusion ran up to the 4-way with 10 and won the zone.
 
Zaela said:
So the integral question then: if the group of less than twelve rushes against the first mob and wipes, do they lose their claim?
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Of course they lose it. I don't know what got you so upset about this but the thing I've been arguing is the way it's always been.

Zaela said:
it seems to me you've replaced the notion of "right of way rules" with gambling, and we might as well just replace the whole rules shebang with /random. It would be simpler.
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The point is to determine who was there with sufficient numbers first. If you win, then you proved that your force is capable. If you lose then you would have lost anyway to 12 people there already.
 
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Manguadi said:
Of course they lose it. I don't know what got you so upset about this but the thing I've been arguing is the way it's always been.



The point is to determine who was there with sufficient numbers first. If you win, then you proved that your force is capable. If you lose then you would have lost anyway to 12 people there already.
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So you're quoting everyone and disagreeing with them by repeating the way it's always been? What?
 
Thinkmeats said:
So you're quoting everyone and disagreeing with them by repeating the way it's always been? What?
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I'm not going to repeat every argument I've made throughout this thread. I've already made the argument that this is the way it's always been and that was never disputed. The policy is what establishes my opinion and history is what supports it. That this decision was made in contradiction to both of those is what I've been debating.

I've granted that the case in which GS had another wizard porting people up, or someone from the original raid was in the process of heading back would count as people being brought in, but that still hasn't been established. The only thing that has been established to support GS's claim is that they had 13 under the flare fiend.
 
I'm sorry then Zaela. In all of what you just said, we agree. Including your analogy.

This whole nonsense is giving me a massive headache. The situation is not precisely as you described it and I agree with the problem you pose in that hypothetical situation. Bane was there first and preparing with buffs while waiting for others to arrive. GS's arrival after bane had begun buffing and preparing prompted them to attack it in order to make any claim to the wing via the capable force rule.

In any case, I've been too inflammatory and angry and aggressive to even make anyone want to agree with me, so I'm going to stop now.

But I still believe a formalized system like I described is strictly better than the current system and maybe I'll bring it up again sometime in the future.
 
Its not that we don't agree, or disagree, or want to agree, or hate your face, or want to kill, or love you immensely, or any of that. It's that your argument, isn't really an argument. You quote, you say "hey no wait!" or "Hells yes, we agrees", say a little something about what you think, and then two posts later, at least marginally contradict yourself.

I honestly don't know what point your trying to make. Just get to the fucking point, you parading around shit too much. Just say it, clearly, and plainly. And then don't go and contradict yourself.



ON TOPIC: First to 12 in wing / zone is how i think it should be. If I have 14 people coming, and they have 18 people coming, but somehow my 12th zones in when they have 11 still, I think that is my wing/zone. Period. If they want to argue, they can petition. But me? I'm gonna go kill shit while they wait. If the question is there are different methods of entering the wing (I.E. ToT), I think we are all pretty damn clear about how that stuff works now. Not that it shouldn't have been clear before, but people just wanted to have an advantage cause they have a better clicky.
 
I always thought it was first 12 to get in the zone and engage a mob. I guess that is not the case, but it should be IMO. IMO there needs to be a set of clear cut rules like:

You must have 12 or more (lvl 65) toons in a zone to claim.
* This can be as simple as 6 people boxing. Even if you can kill trash with 2 people, a raid force (12+) gets preference to the raid zone (and can take it from you if you have less than 12).

You must engage/kill a trash mob to set your claim.
* Even if you have 12 people in the zone, you have to kill a mob to set your claim. You can't just sit there and hold a zone. If someone else comes in and kills the first mob, you lost your claim. Buffing or not, you will be able to see when someone is zoning in, just pull a mob.

The word zone may be replaced with the word wing in any rule here.

You must continue to clear trash mobs.
* You cannot zone in with a bunch of boxes or random strangers LFG in ooc, clear one mob, have a claim and go AFK till the rest of the guild logs on. You have to engage a new mob say, for example, every fifteen minutes.

If you have less than 12 in the zone, and another force with more than 12 come in, they can take the zone from you.
* If your guild does not have six people on (assuming they are boxing or w/e), you have no business claiming the zone. If another guild gets a raid force in the zone (12 toons), you have to give it up if they can kill a mob.

In the event of a wipe, you have a half an hour to get back and engage a mob again.
* This includes rez time, buff time, etc. If you do not recover in time, another guild can take the zone.

Note - The word zone can be replaced with the word wing in any rule.
 
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Mang you keep saying that bane had attacked something. How does being FD under the flare fiend, whom you would have to kill to get anywhere without a well ring, count as attacking a trash mob?
 
Seriously?

The words Bane engaged the flare fiend (not in that order) are in that sentence.

edit: Maybe I found the error. Added the word it to previous post.
 
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I think the point of the long thread has been proven by the same situation being understood differently, need the raid rule to be more narrow yet still wide enough for the spirit to have some leeway for GMs to make their choice. Just my opinion for what is worth (probably nothing).

By the way: How is being FD under a mob = attacking it? just wondering.
 
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Furrygamer said:
I think the point of the long thread has been proven by the same situation being understood differently, need the raid rule to be more narrow yet still wide enough for the spirit to have some leeway for GMs to make their choice. Just my opinion for what is worth (probably nothing).

By the way: How is being FD under a mob = attacking it? just wondering.
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I am pretty sure you've never done tot but basically being FD under it strongly suggests that you intend to kill it and enter a wing.
 
When plane of frost was new, I was in the goon squad raid that was the first raid ever in the zone. This was before the zone was considered winged. Bane and Goon Squad raced for it, Bane had a handful of people already in-zone but doing nothing, and Goon Squad got twelve in before Bane. Woldaff, who was watching, automatically handed the zone to Goon Squad.

It's been this way as long as I can remember it, which might not be as long of a history as yours, but I like it this way. Its cleaner, it prevents guilds from dogpiling over each other to try to snag the first mob. If you zone in 12 or more, you almost certainly have a capable force, and 12+ people don't just randomly zone/port/walk in to a raid area without the aim to misbehave with the local population. Obviously they cant just sit there forever, but thats what the handy 1-hour rule is for.

This way is polite. It is clean. If you see 12+ you know to just stay the fuck away. The rules you want are an open invitation for guilds to try to leapfrog each other. That is absolutely unnecessary. What does engaging with 15 actually prove? Why should you have to stab a mob? Merely having that many people in the zone establishes intent and ability. That is all you should require.

Of course, if you bring less than 12, and you can kill the trash, that's your claim. The reason why you have to prove a claim with less than 12 is so that small groups of players don't shit up the rest of the raiding population's nights by holding targets for hours with meaningless wipes to mobs they don't actually have the means and/or intent to kill.

The kind of engage rules you want, Manguadi, don't actually DO anything other than open the door for guild drama and other such asshattery.
 
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