Raid Accessibility & Content Relevance
- Thread starter Haenir
- Start date
Haenir
Dalayan Master
- Relic progression could be tweaked somewhat --- i.e., the 6-man relic droppers (Tarlisha, Cmal 4.1/4.2) are mostly (perhaps exclusively?) killed for reasons other than relics. This could be fixed.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
Why would you think they wouldn't come? If properly promoted, the draw of a fresh server would be pretty big. Hell, if i heard of a server similar to this one that was about to do a wipe, i'd likely go play on it - and I know i'm not alone with that. Most of us play this game for community, and ours is fading.
The other proposed solution shown was advertising, but hasn't that already happened?
So many of us have put so much time into our characters. When that suddenly disappears, some of us aren't even gonna want to think about this game. I'd sure wish the server well though. It's not just about the journey and community for everyone. For me, the work I put in to build something and progress does it for me.
One of the biggest issues with the game and population imo lies with where gaming has gone in general. This game was created as a slow grind. A lot of us have seen little to no progress for months at a time or longer, and appreiate the hell out of something when it finally happens. Gaming now though basically is designed around pouring shit on you to keep your attention. Games like wow and almost everything after have trained all the newer people to get frustrated when they don't get something new every five minutes. Then they come to this game and because it has gotten so top heavy and low pop., they get spots they never would have gotten so quickly and easily and get shit poured on them to catch them up to become relevant, and then when the loot train slows down and stops when they start catching up with the rest, they get bored and frustrated, and eventually go back to every current game. There's a serious disconnect in that respect between the newer players of this game and the older, and I have no clue how to address it. Make the game easier, we leave. Keep it the grind that it is, they don't stay. If you do end up winning this push to wipe the server, you're gonna lose most of the older guys, even if not immediately, but if by some miracle you're right and they do come to the field of dreams, you better damn sure also push to build it, because this grinding version the rest of us enjoy isn't gonna keep their attention for long anymore than it does now.
One of the biggest issues with the game and population imo lies with where gaming has gone in general. This game was created as a slow grind. A lot of us have seen little to no progress for months at a time or longer, and appreiate the hell out of something when it finally happens. Gaming now though basically is designed around pouring shit on you to keep your attention. Games like wow and almost everything after have trained all the newer people to get frustrated when they don't get something new every five minutes. Then they come to this game and because it has gotten so top heavy and low pop., they get spots they never would have gotten so quickly and easily and get shit poured on them to catch them up to become relevant, and then when the loot train slows down and stops when they start catching up with the rest, they get bored and frustrated, and eventually go back to every current game. There's a serious disconnect in that respect between the newer players of this game and the older, and I have no clue how to address it. Make the game easier, we leave. Keep it the grind that it is, they don't stay. If you do end up winning this push to wipe the server, you're gonna lose most of the older guys, even if not immediately, but if by some miracle you're right and they do come to the field of dreams, you better damn sure also push to build it, because this grinding version the rest of us enjoy isn't gonna keep their attention for long anymore than it does now.
p99 being so popular would prove this to be false.
Trying to get out of the topic of a server wipe, I have a couple ideas that could make raiding a bit more accessible.
Old content definitely needs to be updated, considering all the changes to the server since its creation, whether it be making new 6/12-man stuff, or turning old content into 6/12-man stuff and shifting tier nomenclature around.
Anyways, these are just some of my ideas, they're probably terrible, I'm just trying to get some ideas out there, or elaborate on some vaguely mentioned stuff. I think there's more we can do to make the server less shitty for low level people, like implementing mentoring or shrouding, or making crafted armor not suck so bad, so it's actually worthwhile to do for lowbies (besides for augments, which is really only super useful for twinks and max level characters)(I mean, seriously, who would use copper or silver armor past level 15 with all the adepts and other BoE drops from low level zones? Mining and mob farming are the bottleneck for blacksmithing and tailoring, respectively, so I don't see why the gear made through it has to be so terrible. Not to mention, once you can make the better armor, you've already outlevelled it from all the exp you get from skillups. (rant over)), but making the server better for low levels is probably a topic for a different thread.
- Increase the out-of-combat meditation rate. I know with the new client, it's possible to make meditation recover a % of mana per tick, rather than a flat amount. This would allow pulls to go a bit faster in both raids and groups, since you wouldn't be waiting 3-5 minutes every time you needed to med (this is one problem that actually gets worse at the end game, takes like 10 minutes to med to full on some classes, I believe).
- Relic spells: There should be an alternate, possibly questable, probably grindable and groupable, way to get relic spells. If there's 10 casters all going after relics, it's going to take a looonnng time to get everybody relic'ed out. Combine that with relic turnins being random, and you end up with some people that are fine with just one or two relics (healers getting their relic heals, enc getting JB/mez, etc.) or people that need to get all 5 relics before they get “the good one” I don't remember how far into the tiers relics drop, but I feel like this would be a problem for a large amount of new raiding guilds. The same goes for ancient spells somewhat, but there are only 2 of those for each class that gets them.
- Spawn timers: If we're looking to have 200 people playing on the server again, spawn timers definitely need to be looked at. If there's more than 2-3 guilds going after the same tier of stuff, it starts to look pretty sparse for raid targets, especially when there's pugs going on as well with that kind of a population (with higher tier people trying to outfit their alts). This may or may not apply to 6-man content as well, especially with a higher population, targets would constantly be down.
- Trash clearing: Let's face it. Clearing trash *sucks*. A lot of the planar zones are especially bad at this. Trash clears are long, boring, and almost always just a neccessity to get to the bosses. Making trash drop worthwhile loot (say, 1-2 tiers lower than the zone) to help with backgearing new players, having useful clickies, being better exp in a raid, very low drop rate of ancients, and even lower rate of relics, possibly even unique tomes that give various abilities (maybe better out of combat stamina/mana/hp regen, or defensive procs, or more activatable abilities [This would obviously be a bitch and a half to 1)balance 2)code, and would also make these lower tier zones way too desirable for higher-tiered guilds])
Old content definitely needs to be updated, considering all the changes to the server since its creation, whether it be making new 6/12-man stuff, or turning old content into 6/12-man stuff and shifting tier nomenclature around.
Anyways, these are just some of my ideas, they're probably terrible, I'm just trying to get some ideas out there, or elaborate on some vaguely mentioned stuff. I think there's more we can do to make the server less shitty for low level people, like implementing mentoring or shrouding, or making crafted armor not suck so bad, so it's actually worthwhile to do for lowbies (besides for augments, which is really only super useful for twinks and max level characters)(I mean, seriously, who would use copper or silver armor past level 15 with all the adepts and other BoE drops from low level zones? Mining and mob farming are the bottleneck for blacksmithing and tailoring, respectively, so I don't see why the gear made through it has to be so terrible. Not to mention, once you can make the better armor, you've already outlevelled it from all the exp you get from skillups. (rant over)), but making the server better for low levels is probably a topic for a different thread.
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Says the guy trying to start a low end ringer free guild. If Shards of Dalaya is ever going to get a surge of new players that time is now with the EQEMU listing. What better time to revisit the low end experience and bring it in line with where the game/progression/gear is now? Maybe catering to the low end player experience would attract more low end players.
Server Wipes
Server wipe is a dumb idea. What kind of plan is it to definitely lose players to maybe get new players?
Lower effort fixes to the OP
- Increase relic drop rates
- Reduce respawns for raid content
- Increase plat drops [works with ^ to encourage more pugs]
- Implement an anti-leet-camping spell that various raid mobs cast which does ([#of people on hate list -12]*10,000 damage) shortly after engage= no more one grouping raids so you gotta drag some newbs along
- Implement Rank 4 Bounties which have you going after low tier raid targets so people have a reason to experience that content. Would need some kind of *mob system for targets (which could also make vah way less annoying while you're at it- just saying). Rank 4 vendors (could use the existing Thurg quest mobs as class specific vendors) would sell old thaz class armor since that seems to be all the rage on the forums lately. Would also need a vendor to sell old thaz armor augs.
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Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
well look at this... the reason why i made vintage....
Thade
DINOSAUR THADE
Because you have a dope ass catering truck and really like to cater?
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
shut up and join
Haenir
Dalayan Master
A couple other ideas on trash:
- Add tradeskill items (think planar crafting) to trash
- Add bounty-like alt-currency system which is granted from trash kills
- Add loot that only drops when a small force (6-man?) beats the trash (i.e., encouraging high-end folk to kill trash in older content for a reason besides sniping a boss)
daenar_sod
Dalayan Elder
Has anyone tried to make a post on r/gaming or any of these sites to promote? Like ppl say to do it, but I've never seen 'em.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
So server wipe aside, I think one of the things that pretty much everyone has experienced is the issue with Relic spells.
Honestly, simply increasing the drop rate would be fine imo, but something like a quest, or adding them in as rewards may be fun?
If we just keep it to a small amount of work, maybe something like:
Honestly, simply increasing the drop rate would be fine imo, but something like a quest, or adding them in as rewards may be fun?
If we just keep it to a small amount of work, maybe something like:
- Max your COI aug - 1 relic (remeber, they are worth plat as well)
- Finish your deity aug - 1 relic
- A certain step in vah - 1 relic
Since they already drop from t-maps, and maps under a certain tier have been trivialized, maybe overhaul maps in general to make them relevant again? Increase the droprate on the higher maps, and/or maybe have all the lower maps drop pieces, maybe similar to collecting the stuff from the different types of maps quest that's already in (which could use some updating), to put together for a relic? Similar to a ton of other quests, runics, tot weapons, etc. There's a ton of old content that could be fixed/updated/improved on and turned into new content, and maybe it would not only make it not so rough going through the lower end for new people since they're up against a ghost-town that so many of us never had to deal with, but just maybe it might add some extra replayability for the old folks.
The whole P99 argument against my earlier post (still waiting for what exactly it was an argument against exactly) made me think about it. What besides overall advertisement and visibility, does P99 have that has kept the population from dwindling? I'm sure most of you have probably been thinking about this literally for years now. I've always ignored P99 though, so I'm geniunely curious.
The whole P99 argument against my earlier post (still waiting for what exactly it was an argument against exactly) made me think about it. What besides overall advertisement and visibility, does P99 have that has kept the population from dwindling? I'm sure most of you have probably been thinking about this literally for years now. I've always ignored P99 though, so I'm geniunely curious.
ynnear
Dalayan Elder
50 bounty tokens = 1 relic spell?
daenar_sod
Dalayan Elder
darksabbath
Dalayan Master
Wall O' Text incoming:
There is a slew of issues with an old game like this, none of which would be solved by a server wipe. If you wipe the server, the dedicated power gamers that return will do what they do best, power through to end-game and farm it endlessly. Sure, they will be low level for a bit, but not for very long. As they will be busy working on their main toons, they won't even be messing around on alt that might group with these new people. So any new people you gain will still be left to their own devices. At the same time, you will lose many casual players who have no desire to "go through it all again". (I am in that camp.) And then there would the loss of tradeskillers, many of which are more than happy to throw together low level equipment for free or cost of materials only. And what about the people who keep toons in DB just to give away low level equipment to new players and such? even if they continue playign, they will be busy gearing their own toon, so won't want to give that stuff away any more.
And just where do you think you are going to draw these 250+ new players from? Even with a wipe, do you think you will draw others from their established accounts on other emu servers? And how long do you think they will stay, especially after things re-stratify? Or perhaps they will just run when they see the charm plat sink, compounded with the low cash drop rate. Or when the "power vets" tell them about tomes, perhaps? never mind the slow leveling, which hasn't been faster than "live" in years.
Or maybe you think you'll advertise a bunch, and bring in new players. Ha, that is a good joke. There isn't much call for a 15 to 20 year old game and its out-dated systems compared to modern games. Who ever said about trying to find the 35+ year olds to market to them, that may work. Except, most of those people have families and jobs now, and this game has a huge time-sink element to it. Getting buffed takes time, getting spell components if you need them (why is this still a thing?) takes time, getting to a "camp" takes time, finding raid targets up takes time, getting to and killing them takes time. Then there is the time spent farming cash to get the charms, they aren't the plat sink they were thought of, a place for excess cash, now people farm cash just to buy the next big one.
Most new games don't have all those time sinks involved. They keep you involved in the action for the most part. Most games these days don't even bother with stat buffs like EQ, they rely more on auras supplied by party members. Or, if they have a longer lasting buff, it is a relatively minor effect that is a nice boost, but is far from required (unlike haste, hp/ac, regen, damage shield, etc is here). For example, a couple other games I have played.
In Star Wars: The Old Republic (SW:ToR), each of the four main classes has a different minor buff (5% to stats, crit chance, etc.), that lasts for an hour. In Marvel Heroes, you may get auras from your heroes skills, or from others in your group who have them. Or, being near people not in your group that have them. But the moment you are out of range of others, those minor stat boosts are gone. Again, these are minor effects that are nice to have (boosts to defense, hp, accuracy, damage), but are by no means "necessary" to do the content. And other spells/abilities are used in combat and have very short durations, whether a buff or a detrimental. You log in, go fight stuff, use what you need, and move on to the next fight. When out of combat, both health and mana/spirit/force (etc) regen extra equip, either naturally, or by activating a special ability that exists for that reason. And most of the games take advantage of instanced content being available for solo/group, and for raids. SWtor has flashpoints (4-man group stuff) and operations (raids 8/16man). Marvel heroes has terminals (solo/group of 5), and raids (10-man). Both of those games have plenty of quests for leveling, open world fighting (for xp, and leveling), and open world named to take down. And since raids are instanced instead, they limit the farming by using lockouts on them, set to each being once per week. This also limits the effect of "nothing is up, because a raid group in an earlier time zone took down all our targets." You set a raid time that is good for most of your members, log in, go kill stuff, then go do other things.
I have tried to come back numerous times after playing these other games. And each time the reality has hit me, I need to log in buffs, I need to get peridots for Savagery, I need to find a group/load a bot, need to find a place to kill, need to get there... ugh. I don't have tons of time to spare right now though, Screw it, I'll go play something else that is quicker to get in and get going on. The reality is, everything here just goes too slow by comparison now. I don't mind earning stuff, but I despise "grinding" it.
TL; DR:
A server wipe solves nothing if the game mechanics stay the same. Archaic time-sink game design drives away new people in an instant-gratification google-based world. Many of those who played original EQ lack the free time, due to RL concerns, to jump through the hoops it takes to excel here. Newer games lack the buffs (and need for them) in favor of a faster pace, including heavy use of instancing so that nobody ever misses out on content due to spawns and time zone differences.
There is a slew of issues with an old game like this, none of which would be solved by a server wipe. If you wipe the server, the dedicated power gamers that return will do what they do best, power through to end-game and farm it endlessly. Sure, they will be low level for a bit, but not for very long. As they will be busy working on their main toons, they won't even be messing around on alt that might group with these new people. So any new people you gain will still be left to their own devices. At the same time, you will lose many casual players who have no desire to "go through it all again". (I am in that camp.) And then there would the loss of tradeskillers, many of which are more than happy to throw together low level equipment for free or cost of materials only. And what about the people who keep toons in DB just to give away low level equipment to new players and such? even if they continue playign, they will be busy gearing their own toon, so won't want to give that stuff away any more.
And just where do you think you are going to draw these 250+ new players from? Even with a wipe, do you think you will draw others from their established accounts on other emu servers? And how long do you think they will stay, especially after things re-stratify? Or perhaps they will just run when they see the charm plat sink, compounded with the low cash drop rate. Or when the "power vets" tell them about tomes, perhaps? never mind the slow leveling, which hasn't been faster than "live" in years.
Or maybe you think you'll advertise a bunch, and bring in new players. Ha, that is a good joke. There isn't much call for a 15 to 20 year old game and its out-dated systems compared to modern games. Who ever said about trying to find the 35+ year olds to market to them, that may work. Except, most of those people have families and jobs now, and this game has a huge time-sink element to it. Getting buffed takes time, getting spell components if you need them (why is this still a thing?) takes time, getting to a "camp" takes time, finding raid targets up takes time, getting to and killing them takes time. Then there is the time spent farming cash to get the charms, they aren't the plat sink they were thought of, a place for excess cash, now people farm cash just to buy the next big one.
Most new games don't have all those time sinks involved. They keep you involved in the action for the most part. Most games these days don't even bother with stat buffs like EQ, they rely more on auras supplied by party members. Or, if they have a longer lasting buff, it is a relatively minor effect that is a nice boost, but is far from required (unlike haste, hp/ac, regen, damage shield, etc is here). For example, a couple other games I have played.
In Star Wars: The Old Republic (SW:ToR), each of the four main classes has a different minor buff (5% to stats, crit chance, etc.), that lasts for an hour. In Marvel Heroes, you may get auras from your heroes skills, or from others in your group who have them. Or, being near people not in your group that have them. But the moment you are out of range of others, those minor stat boosts are gone. Again, these are minor effects that are nice to have (boosts to defense, hp, accuracy, damage), but are by no means "necessary" to do the content. And other spells/abilities are used in combat and have very short durations, whether a buff or a detrimental. You log in, go fight stuff, use what you need, and move on to the next fight. When out of combat, both health and mana/spirit/force (etc) regen extra equip, either naturally, or by activating a special ability that exists for that reason. And most of the games take advantage of instanced content being available for solo/group, and for raids. SWtor has flashpoints (4-man group stuff) and operations (raids 8/16man). Marvel heroes has terminals (solo/group of 5), and raids (10-man). Both of those games have plenty of quests for leveling, open world fighting (for xp, and leveling), and open world named to take down. And since raids are instanced instead, they limit the farming by using lockouts on them, set to each being once per week. This also limits the effect of "nothing is up, because a raid group in an earlier time zone took down all our targets." You set a raid time that is good for most of your members, log in, go kill stuff, then go do other things.
I have tried to come back numerous times after playing these other games. And each time the reality has hit me, I need to log in buffs, I need to get peridots for Savagery, I need to find a group/load a bot, need to find a place to kill, need to get there... ugh. I don't have tons of time to spare right now though, Screw it, I'll go play something else that is quicker to get in and get going on. The reality is, everything here just goes too slow by comparison now. I don't mind earning stuff, but I despise "grinding" it.
TL; DR:
A server wipe solves nothing if the game mechanics stay the same. Archaic time-sink game design drives away new people in an instant-gratification google-based world. Many of those who played original EQ lack the free time, due to RL concerns, to jump through the hoops it takes to excel here. Newer games lack the buffs (and need for them) in favor of a faster pace, including heavy use of instancing so that nobody ever misses out on content due to spawns and time zone differences.