Proposed Monk Changes
- Thread starter Waldoff
- Start date
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Did another round, this time with GoE rather than Emp and also CotP/RBoW, no werefrog though.
Bare fists + Ule's Conception (+20 h2h total) 795 dps
Horok/Fist of Dawn (18 1hb, 20 h2h) 793 dps
Perditrix (+0 2hb) 713 dps
Horok/Xenelaqui (18 1hb, no rbow due to stacking) 755 dps
6 minute parses aren't really long enough to get definitive numbers since things like a couple extra 4k Massive Kick crits or a few missed round kicks can alter the numbers a bit, but there you go. NZ staff is even harder to parse because of how much the uptime on the buff can vary fight to fight.
Also I parsed Horok/Xene a second time without +4 offense range and did 750 dps, so I have a feeling either +offense was nerfed at some point or my earlier parses were flawed somehow.
Bare fists + Ule's Conception (+20 h2h total) 795 dps
Horok/Fist of Dawn (18 1hb, 20 h2h) 793 dps
Perditrix (+0 2hb) 713 dps
Horok/Xenelaqui (18 1hb, no rbow due to stacking) 755 dps
6 minute parses aren't really long enough to get definitive numbers since things like a couple extra 4k Massive Kick crits or a few missed round kicks can alter the numbers a bit, but there you go. NZ staff is even harder to parse because of how much the uptime on the buff can vary fight to fight.
Also I parsed Horok/Xene a second time without +4 offense range and did 750 dps, so I have a feeling either +offense was nerfed at some point or my earlier parses were flawed somehow.
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Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Two >15 minute parses with +4 offense mod and two without it, DPS nearly identical (actually higher without the +4 offense equipped), average hit, crit rate, accuracy all nearly identical. Wasn't kicking and didn't have Jur equipped to minimize RNG stuff. Pretty confident that overcap offense doesnt do anything at this point.
syduck:iRtehTisukii
Dalayan Adventurer
I have thought offense wasn't doing anything. Good to know I was right. Bad to know I have wasted slots on the mod.
I thought when all the over cap mod adjustments were made this was supposed to do stuff.
I thought when all the over cap mod adjustments were made this was supposed to do stuff.
The "same thing" being slightly increased accuracy with everything and 1.35 ATK per point.
edit: in case "slight" is misleading, accuracy-wise 1 point of Offense is equivalent to 1 point of weapon/backstab/kick/whatever skill.
edit2: so long as I'm making comparisons, 1.35 ATK per point is about half of what you get per point of weapon/backstab/kick/whatever too.
edit: in case "slight" is misleading, accuracy-wise 1 point of Offense is equivalent to 1 point of weapon/backstab/kick/whatever skill.
edit2: so long as I'm making comparisons, 1.35 ATK per point is about half of what you get per point of weapon/backstab/kick/whatever too.
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iRtehTisukii
Dalayan Adventurer
Thanks Z
Being so rare and at such small numbers on items that do have it, was expecting a bit more. Of well thems the breaks.
Being so rare and at such small numbers on items that do have it, was expecting a bit more. Of well thems the breaks.
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Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
I'm still wondering about the change to +Flying Kick mods. There are three pairs of boots, one bracer, and one pair of pants that have Flying Kick mods in the game. All of them except the yclist boots are BoE or very very low end 65 gear. Low tier monks using the dps combo (spamming round kick) do a ton more dps than by using Flying Kick, and the same is true of high tier monks that have the now nearly useless Force of Body tomes.
So... What's the point? Even if every monk had +25 Flying Kick and Force of Body 4, they would still do more dps by spamming round kick. Are we going to have our combos changed so we actually use Flying Kick?
So... What's the point? Even if every monk had +25 Flying Kick and Force of Body 4, they would still do more dps by spamming round kick. Are we going to have our combos changed so we actually use Flying Kick?
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
^ I believe it's "other"
So a dev asked me last night if there were any bugs with combos that I was aware of and I had to open the wiki page to remember what a few of the combos actually were since I literally only ever use two of them.
I'd say the DPS combo has for the most part fulfilled the "sizable dps increase" that we needed. But other than that and the lifetap, the rest of the combos are rather lacking in my experience. So, some ideas:
Make the heal in the avoidance combo larger. You can only use it every ~15 seconds at best, and with the longer timeframe we have now to trigger combos, it would be nice if this one could be used intelligently to heal yourself rather than mashing every ability ASAP. So, if you're tanking/offtanking, hold off on the third attack in this combo for a few seconds until your health dips low, then complete it for the heal.
Replace the mez and one of the stun+DD combos (or both of them. The only times I've tried using them, they were resisted and nothing happened). The mez would be a cool thing if you could use it immediately when you need it, but requiring such a long amount of time to set up makes it fairly useless.
Some ideas to replace them with and give us some more utility- Maybe a slow? A reverse DS. A martyr's intercession type ability to heal whoever your target is attacking. A temporary pet that can do something interesting. An AOE of some sort.
Since using something other than the dps combo drops monk dps back down to "barely higher than warrior/druid/shaman" levels, I feel like the utility/survival combos need to be a lot better than what's available currently. The 15% group overhaste might be useful in an all-melee raid group once it works correctly but the other combos we have now might as well not exist.
If anyone else agrees/disagrees or actually uses the existing combos frequently I'd love to hear it.
So a dev asked me last night if there were any bugs with combos that I was aware of and I had to open the wiki page to remember what a few of the combos actually were since I literally only ever use two of them.
I'd say the DPS combo has for the most part fulfilled the "sizable dps increase" that we needed. But other than that and the lifetap, the rest of the combos are rather lacking in my experience. So, some ideas:
Make the heal in the avoidance combo larger. You can only use it every ~15 seconds at best, and with the longer timeframe we have now to trigger combos, it would be nice if this one could be used intelligently to heal yourself rather than mashing every ability ASAP. So, if you're tanking/offtanking, hold off on the third attack in this combo for a few seconds until your health dips low, then complete it for the heal.
Replace the mez and one of the stun+DD combos (or both of them. The only times I've tried using them, they were resisted and nothing happened). The mez would be a cool thing if you could use it immediately when you need it, but requiring such a long amount of time to set up makes it fairly useless.
Some ideas to replace them with and give us some more utility- Maybe a slow? A reverse DS. A martyr's intercession type ability to heal whoever your target is attacking. A temporary pet that can do something interesting. An AOE of some sort.
Since using something other than the dps combo drops monk dps back down to "barely higher than warrior/druid/shaman" levels, I feel like the utility/survival combos need to be a lot better than what's available currently. The 15% group overhaste might be useful in an all-melee raid group once it works correctly but the other combos we have now might as well not exist.
If anyone else agrees/disagrees or actually uses the existing combos frequently I'd love to hear it.
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Yes. Effects that are very timing dependent (heals, stuns, mez, etc...) are absolute garbage in the Combo system. Also, I do not get the upgrade to Flying Kick coupled with RKx3 still being primary dps rotation.
Some potentially cool effects for a slow unresponsive system like Combos...
Vex: this could possibly be a non-negligible increase to Monk utility to replace the iffy stun... Blinding Strike?
Splitting 'Wrath of the Nalansar' into a caster and a melee debuff with better numbers and longer duration. Having to /use brain to pick which one is interactive and having a duration long enough to alternate combos makes it less repetitive, more interactive, and maybe more fun.
Is there any way to FD mobs and keep them down for a bit? I realize this would be functionally about as useless as the mez, but Nerve Pinching mobs down to the ground is hilarious.
Some potentially cool effects for a slow unresponsive system like Combos...
Vex: this could possibly be a non-negligible increase to Monk utility to replace the iffy stun... Blinding Strike?
Splitting 'Wrath of the Nalansar' into a caster and a melee debuff with better numbers and longer duration. Having to /use brain to pick which one is interactive and having a duration long enough to alternate combos makes it less repetitive, more interactive, and maybe more fun.
Is there any way to FD mobs and keep them down for a bit? I realize this would be functionally about as useless as the mez, but Nerve Pinching mobs down to the ground is hilarious.
I tried using the mez combo a few times here and there when I was bored... it worked well on stuff that I could easily have tanked without the mez. It's like, why bother... I may as well just fall back on the reliable kill-them-before-they-kill-us method (dps combo) or the more cautious route of using the lifetap combo.
What I see as the main problem with the combination system is its in-built inflexibility in split second decision making vs the time interval between said decisions. Once you've entered the second part of the combo, you're pretty much committed to an action. (Thankfully, this is not the case for the dps / lifetap combo.)
When you couple the above problem with the monk class, you get what we have now- a system where there's really only a few good options. There's just not many aspects to the class that you can modify without branching out into other abilities... which infringes on other classes, which means all you have left for options is watered down versions that no one is going to use.
I'm not going to pretend to have the solution. At this point, I would gladly take my old monk back. You could drop the entire combination system and I likely wouldn't blink. Sure, the added dps and survive-ability of the lifetap combo is nice... but really, this seems like an awfully long misadventure down a road I never wanted to go down in the first place.
What I see as the main problem with the combination system is its in-built inflexibility in split second decision making vs the time interval between said decisions. Once you've entered the second part of the combo, you're pretty much committed to an action. (Thankfully, this is not the case for the dps / lifetap combo.)
When you couple the above problem with the monk class, you get what we have now- a system where there's really only a few good options. There's just not many aspects to the class that you can modify without branching out into other abilities... which infringes on other classes, which means all you have left for options is watered down versions that no one is going to use.
I'm not going to pretend to have the solution. At this point, I would gladly take my old monk back. You could drop the entire combination system and I likely wouldn't blink. Sure, the added dps and survive-ability of the lifetap combo is nice... but really, this seems like an awfully long misadventure down a road I never wanted to go down in the first place.