Patch Notes - August 10th, 2021

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HEADLINES
  • Shadowknight and Paladin Discipline system rework.
  • Top end dungeon tweaks.
QUALITY OF LIFE - BUFFS
Now that a lot of the foundational systems have been implemented, we have been discussing ways to re-add the quality of life benefits that players enjoy, but within these new systems.

Players have expressed concerns with how variables to raid recovery times clash with the new buff system, the following change is designed to smooth this out.

Currently, buffs do not expire when a player is safe inside a city (eg. Athica while not in combat or PVP); this was a past quality of life addition. We have extended the "safe in city" rule to include areas that allow binding. An iconic example would be the bind location known as "tables" (or table if you're a purist).

DISCIPLINES
A six second lockout timer has been added to disciplines after a player swaps weapons.

TANK REBALANCE
As we move forward, we would like to explain where we see each tank ranked in different categories:

MITIGATION
Warriors would continue to be the best at physical mitigation with Paladins the worst. The caveat being, Paladins will now specialize further in spell mitigation to differentiate them.​
  • Physical Mitigation: Warrior (13%+) Shadow Knight (7%) Paladin (5%)
  • Spell Mitigation: Paladin (7%+)
AGGRO
Currently, the tank single target aggro order is not correct. Warriors are too low due to our weapon balance and Paladins are too high due to Zealous Might aggro multipliers.​
  • Single Target Aggro:
    • Shadow Knight: Single target aggro should be easy and efficient. Other raid members should be jolting rarely.
    • Paladin: Single target aggro should be the lowest of the three tanks. Other raid members should be jolting often.
    • Warrior: Warriors should be between Paladin and Shadowknight aggro, being closer to Paladins. Other raid members should be jolting sometimes.
  • Area of Effect Aggro:
    • Paladin: High aggro on 6+ targets. Easy and efficient to generate.
    • Warrior: Moderate aggro on current target and decent aggro on 2 to 3 other targets. Targets beyond this should produce noticeable aggro loss.
    • Shadowknight: Unbreakable aggro on a single target. Aggro on a second target should be moderate but need to be worked for. Targets beyond this should produce noticeable aggro loss.
SINGLE TARGET DPS WHILE TANKING
Warriors should always provide the largest DPS while tanking. Shadowknights should be second, closely followed by Paladins. Currently Paladins are doing too much single target tanking DPS due to Zealous Might multipliers.​

KNIGHT SHIELDING MASTERY
  • This AA has not been working, it was not adding its bonus to shields for knights (for at least 10 years). It now properly applies its bonus.
BASH
  • The bash damage formula now applies diminishing returns to bonus damage from shoulder and shield armor class as it increases.
  • Using bash currently applies a bonus aggro value that is equal to shield AC; knights receive a multiplier to this bonus value. For this patch, we have increased this multiplier. We feel that bash is an appropriate source for aggro for knights; it scales with level, gear and accuracy. By buffing this source we can spread out aggro generated by more absurd sources. This is one adjustment that will assist with the low level paladin aggro issues we have received from feedback.
WARRIOR
The aggro multiplier of bloodlust has been increased to put warriors in a more appropriate spot for aggro generation. This is an interim fix until warriors receive a full discipline rework.

PALADIN
All Paladin stances have been removed (including aggressive and defensive), and reworked or replaced with Disciplines. We see the Paladin as a hybrid between Warriors and Clerics. Clerics tend to be a bit more melee oriented in design, so Disciplines were also designed to accentuate this. Paladin will be the top healer of the three tanks both while tanking and as a raid utility. To differentiate the Paladin from the Shadowknight when it comes to mitigation, we have further advanced their Spell Mitigation theme. Paladin single target aggro was nerfed, while also increasing their area aggro generation. We have given the Paladin three tools to help with emergencies that arise from aggro:
  • A single target aggro information skill, similar to Jayla's Insight.
  • Fast casting target of target healing spells.
  • A unique taunt skill.
PALADIN DISCIPLINE ABILITIES
Paladins may purchase the following disciplines from the Paladin Guild. Be sure to explore for additional ranks!​
  • Pious Strike - Ranks I to VI. Strike an undead target, banishing their existence from this plane. Has a chance to weaken your target. Has a very rare chance to deal massive damage to your target.
  • Lady's Strike- Ranks I to VI. Bash your target with your shield, dealing physical damage and generating aggro to those around you. Deals additional damage to stunned targets. Requires a shield. This ability should bring low level paladin aggro to values that feel better while leveling. Because this ability is bash damage, it inherits the properties of bash.
    • It interrupts spells.
    • The damage can never crit.
    • Bonus aggro is generated against your primary target using the above BASH rule.
  • Cleansing Strike - Ranks I to VII. Channel a purifying flame into your weapon, striking your target with fire damage. Additional chance to deal a critical strike against Undead. Requires a two handed weapon. Consumes both stamina and mana.
  • Holy Inspiration - Read the tide of battle, gauging how close another player is to pulling aggression off you. Only works if you are the primary aggro to an enemy.
  • Moment of Truth - Ranks I to II. Force your enemy to focus its rage toward you. Only usable in combat. Must be in melee range.
PALADIN DISCIPLINE BUFFS
  • Bastion of Faith - Ranks I to III. The defense of the faithful, granting 3/4/5% melee mitigation and 3/5/7% spell mitigation.
  • Althuna's Fury - Ranks I to III. Faith exudes might! Your zeal carries you into battle, increasing melee damage but decreasing mitigation and aggro. Increases melee damage by 10/15/20%, increases melee damage taken by 5/7/10%, and reduces aggro generated by 5/10/15%.
ZEALOUS/RIGHTEOUS MIGHT REWORK
Due to Zealous and Righteous Might's impact on single target DPS and tanking aggro, these spells have been reworked. Althuna's Fury is intended to provide measured Paladin melee damage, while dissuading from use while tanking. Aggro loss has been distributed to Bash, healing, and Lady's Strike. These new healing spells accentuate the Paladin's healing and spell mitigation strengths.​
Inspire your target's target with the power of faith, healing them and mitigating spell damage for a duration. This buff will also heal them again on their next successful block.
  • Inspire Belief- Target's Target, 287 Base Heal, 1.5s cast, zero recast time, 3.5s recovery, 12s duration, 2% spell mitigation. (Reworked from Righteous Might)
    • Bestow Light - Fade on block, 95 Base Heal.
  • Runic: Inspire Faith- Target's Target, 691 Base Heal, 1.5s cast, zero recast time, 3.5s recovery, 12s duration, 3% spell mitigation. (Reworked from Zealous Might)
    • Bestow Faith - Fade on block, 399 Base Heal.
BLINDS
Blind spells can no longer be overwritten; freeing up a spell slot for some who used two. Paladin blind spells now lower dexterity instead of attack. The dexterity debuff value increases with spell rank. Additional lower level blinds have been added to assist the leveling paladin. Searing light gets a balance nerf as it was out of bounds numerically.​
  • Flash of Light - Decreases dexterity by 5.
  • Glint of Light - A new magic-resist blind purchasable at level 18. Decreases dexterity by 8. Has a magic-resist adjust.
  • Gleam of Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 5.
  • Fervid Light - A new fire-resist blind purchasable at level 45. Decreases dexterity by 12.
  • Blinding Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 16.
  • Wave of Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 10.
  • Searing Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 20. Mana cost increased to 120. Resist adjust lowered to 75. Direct Damage component removed.
STUNS
  • Words of the Righteous is a new single target stun available to Paladins to purchase in late game areas.
  • Descending Judgement has been reworked into Word of the Templar, an upgrade to Word of the Crusader. Descending Judgement provided a lot of a Paladin's aggro while also being predominantly hated by a large portion of developers and players.
HAND OF PIETY
The cooldown of Hand of Piety has been reduced to 20 minutes.​
HEALING AGGRO
Healing aggro generated by a Paladin using single target, self, or target's target healing spells has been slightly increased, outpacing other healer classes.​
DIVINE REFUSAL
The base healing has been increased to 17% (from 13%). Ranks of Divine Radiance further increase this amount. 20, 25, 33, 50%, (from 14, 17, 20, 25%). The AA description has been updated.​
Focuses your fighting spirit, increasing the chance to flurry against undead. Paladins will refuse to die from undead once every 24 hours. Ranks of this AA reduce the cooldown and increase the heal amount of this innate skill.
DIVINE STUN
The AA description has been updated to inform players that this spell generates aggro:​
Training in this ability gives you a new, fast-casting low-resist stun that work even on creatures immune to stun spells. Always generates a medium amount of aggro.
UNDEAD NUKE
Paladins may now learn Banish Undead at level 64. Literally the best buff, so I saved it for last. Nuke on.​
SHADOWKNIGHT
All Shadowknight stances have been removed (including aggressive and defensive), and reworked or replaced with Disciplines. We see Shadowknights as a hybrid between the Warrior and Necromancer classes. Because Necromancers are more spell oriented, Shadowknight Disciplines are not themed around weapon use. Damage Over Time spells were adjusted to play a core role in Shadowknight gameplay. Leech stance has been converted to a short cooldown ability, setting self-healing below Paladins, and above Warriors. A few tools were given to a Shadowknight to address mana sustain, being the cousin of a Necromancer. The mechanics of pet sacrificing should feel better:
  • Instant triggering
  • Failure messages describing when the ability requirements are not met
  • Introduced at lower levels
  • Pet clickies no longer allow for pet sacrificing, being replaced with a class skill
Lastly, a Shadowknight is the undisputed champion of Single Target aggro. Veil spells have been replaced, shifting aggro to new single target aggro tools.

INNATE DOT AGGRO
Shadowknights now have an innate bonus to aggro generated from damage over time sources. Spell casting subtlety for Shadowknights will now also apply to DoT aggro.​
VEXATION OF BLIGHTS
Each rank of this new AA further increases the aggro generated from damage over time sources. This AA also applies a multiplier to the Shadowknight's contribution to DoT Weakening. Excerpt from our forums detailing this mechanic:​
DOT WEAKENING
Weakening effect works by adding up all the damage done to a mob by DoTs in a single tick. For the remainder of that tick, the mob directly deals less damage in melee based on how much DoT damage it is taking in proportion to its HP.
LOW LEVEL DOTS
Low level DoT levels have been lowered to increase usability. New low level DoTs have been added to their repertoire. Adjacent spells shuffled to maintain 1 spell per level.​
  • Disease Cloud - Level 3 (from 5)
    • Locate Corpse - Level 5 (from 3)
  • Clinging Darkness - Level 9 (from 11)
    • Fear - Level 11 (from 12)
  • Fever - New, Level 12
  • Engulfing Darkness - Level 18 (from 20)
  • Heart Flutter - Level 21 (from 36)
  • Virulence - New, Level 30
  • Dooming Darkness - Level 33 (from 44)
  • Searing Blood - New, Level 42
  • Scourge - New, Level 45
  • Boil Blood - Level 48 (from 53)
  • Inflame Blood - New, Level 53
  • Asystole - Level 56 (from 60)
  • Cascading Darkness - Level 58 (from 59)
DISEASE DOT/DEBUFF REWORK
The following spell line has been adjusted and added to. Three of these spells replace the Shadowknight veil line.​
  • Heart Flutter - Duration lowered to 30s, mana cost reduced.
  • Arrhythmia - New, Level 34, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration. (Reworked from Veil of Dis)
  • Heart Panic - New, Level 44, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration. (Reworked from Veil of Marlow)
  • Asystole - Cast time reduced to 4.1s, duration lowered to 30s, mana cost reduced.
  • Cardiac Arrest - New, Level 65, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration.
  • Runic: Heart Possession - New, Runic Two, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration. (Reworked from Veil of Kaezul)
SCORCH BLOOD
A new fire DoT available to Shadowknights to purchase in late game areas.​

TERRORS
The cooldown has been removed from all terrors; freeing up a spell slot for some who used two.​
  • Terror of Gradalsh is a new terror available to Shadowknights to purchase in late game areas.
SHADOWKNIGHT DISCIPLINE ABILITIES
Shadowknights may purchase the following disciplines from the Shadowknight Guild. Be sure to explore for additional ranks!​
  • Meld Bone - Reap undeath from the fading of life, summoning your highest level pet from your spell book. If used on a target that is close to death, the cooldown of this ability will be lowered. Requires melee range.
  • Touch of Hatred - Ranks I to VII. Instill deep hatred upon your enemy, greatly increasing their aggro towards you. Requires melee range.
  • Festering Harvest - Ranks I to VII. Harvest the life of another through a festering touch. The life healed increases with the number of your afflictions on the target. Requires melee range.
  • Deceitful Doubt - Instill powerful doubt upon your enemy, dispelling a beneficial buff with a chance to interrupt spell casting. Requires melee range.
  • Pet: Edict of Pain- Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, imparting its strength to you for a duration.
  • Edict of Pain- A buff granting the Shadowknight a 500/1000 Delay Death life value, 15/25 Disease Resist and 1/2% physical mitigation.
    • Delay Death is most commonly known as "Purple Club", a negative life value that must be exhausted before a player dies.
  • Pet: Grave Pact - Ranks I and II. Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, restoring mana through it's undeath.
The following Discipline skills require ranks in Servant Training to use:​
  • Pet: Noxious Blast - Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, causing disease damage to nearby foes.
  • Pet: Reaper's Touch - Commands your Pet to sacrifice itself, Draining HP from its target and giving it to your group
  • Pet: Ritual of Gore - Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, mesmerizing nearby foes in a spectacle of gore.
  • Pet: Withering Curse - Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, infecting its target with an incremental damage over time spell. This ability counts towards Festering Harvest's heal.
Meld Bone and each sacrifice skill have their own cooldown timer.​

SHADOWKNIGHT DISCIPLINE BUFFS
  • Shadow of Marlow - Ranks I to III. You fade slightly into the realm of dreams, granting 5/6/7% melee mitigation.
  • Putrid Aura - Ranks I to III. You are wreathed in a caustic aura, increasing the damage of all your damage over time spells by 25/50/100% but decreasing melee mitigation by 5/7/10% and aggro by 10/25/50%.
  • Spirit Anchor - Merge your energies with the spirits of the dead, guarding yourself from detrimental mana drains. Mitigates mana drains with a value less than one fourth your maximum mana.
  • Terror Guard - Wreathe yourself in nightmares, enthralling all those who strike you in combat.
FLAYING STRIKES
This AA now increases damage dealt to Ancient and Young races in addition to Humanoid Monsters.​
SHROUD OF THE LICH
Weapon proc moved to slot 5 to allow for more usability.​
UTILITY BENEFICIAL: CONVERSION
Deathly Temptation mana regen increased to 12, health decay increased to 12.​
NECROMANCER
  • Deathly Temptation is now available to purchase at level 40 as a nice step between Call of Bones and Lich.
DRUID
  • Cataclysm mana cost increased.
ROGUE
  • LOIO and Refuge discipline vendor costs have been lowered.
  • A poison vendor has been added to Kelethin, and the poison vendor in The Mountain Crags of Tarhyl has been updated.
  • Nimble Dance duration extended to 10s.
  • Crippling Point now has a vendor cost.
  • Fixed a bug that prevented Concealed Blades AA from working.
  • Gutsy Gambol movement speeds increased slightly. Stamina costs decreased slightly.
  • Wisterol has been re-added to Poison Merchant to allow continued crafting of Savage Frenzy for Marlow quest.
ENCHANTER
  • The duration of the Misdirection line of spells has been doubled.
SPELLS
  • Cleric symbols, Savagery, and Reagent conservation descriptions corrected.
  • Razadian Conservation has been corrected, setting its value at 25%.
  • Flash Powder Ranks I to III correctly state which reagent they require.
  • Flash Powder Rank III now correctly requires a "Flash Powder" reagent.
  • Suffocate, Gasping Embrace, Torment of Gnyrt, Asphyxiate, Chokehold, and Misery of the Swamp spell descriptions updated.
  • Critical Precision spell description updated.
TOP END DUNGEONS

GLOBAL CHARM CREDITS
Initially we only allowed charm credits to drop from enemies with a respawn timer greater than 30 minutes. Based on feedback and additional data, the following changes have been made. A linear drop adjustment has been added because we want to reward more difficult play.​
  • Respawn limit has been lowered to 20 minutes, and lesser charm credit drop chance lowered by 20%. (More zones, less chance)
  • Greater charm credit drop chance increased by 100%.
  • A linear drop adjustment based on enemy level has been added:
    • 20% drop penalty at 55, 33% drop bonus at 65
CITADEL OF THE CLAW
  • Rust Code added for all named.
  • Experience slightly increased.
  • Visiting nobles have a higher chance to rust code named and drop Commander's Orders.
ELDENAL'S MANSION
  • Hybrid-type Rust Code and accelerated respawn feature added.
  • A new visitor awaits your arrival.
BLOOD QUARRY (ROCK SIDE)
  • An additional Rebel Acquisition token quest has been added that involves this area.
  • Rust code added for named.
  • Trash in this wing now drop Yclistinite Bits.
EMBERFLOW
  • The spawn delay on cash named has been lowered to 5 minutes (from 30min)
WEAPON BALANCE
  • Ortananoch's combat innate, Legacy of the Dragonkin, has been altered. Proc rate has been increased, but will fade after five procs. Proc damage lowered to account for a higher proc rate.
  • Entropy's Spine damage proc, Withering Wave, has been changed to a flat damage value instead of a scaling value.
SUNKEN CATHEDRAL
  • Fixed bugs with named mobs spawning - should work normally henceforth.
  • Improved Quest NPC behavior.
  • Wax Fruit increased from snack to meal.
  • Unfeeling alkahest behavior improved.
  • Improved encounter flagging (Thanks Rymy, Marthog, Wuuc, Paxit).
  • Aggregate fungi should no longer fall under the world.
  • Zone quest reward received a bug fix.
  • Tunnel mushroom add spawning frequency reduced.
  • QoL improvements with respect to the amount of items.
  • Revisions were made in the spiral room.
  • Main quest line lengthened a bit - a new bonus awaits for those going all the way.
  • Quest encounter receives rebalancing and items brought in line with the difficulty.
QUESTS
  • A short little quest in Sundered Mountains offered by Freya the Blacksmith that was broken and could not be completed is fixed.
  • Ryzan's Dagger quest which was broken and could not be completed has been fully redone, now accessible by rogues level 60 and above.
  • Previously, killing 6 of 7 required types of stonemites & elementals for the quest "Things that go bump in the mines" incorrectly gave text implying the quest was complete when it was not actually complete. This has been fixed.
  • Gleaming Steel Sword has been added to the Well-Illustrated Treasure Map loot table.
  • Forest of the Fallen:
    • Vaton has listened to reason and will now allow all animal trappings to be done at the same time.
    • Guorth is allowing multiple defenders at once during the Yiv invasion of the Kromtor fort.
    • Gravedigging with Gumdor should work better.
MISC
  • The command system transition is complete. Commands using /cm will no longer work and will display an error
  • Yclistinite Credits can now be purchased in Lake of Ill Omen. Credits are tradable and can be redeemed for their full value.
  • Increased Heart Panic (Previously Veil of Marlow) and Taraztu's Healing Flames drop rates.
  • The Lug Worm has been fixed.
  • The Silent Halls: Soul Hunters of Rajzaa spawns changed to be more dynamic.
  • Cryospine bodytype has been adjusted to 'animal' to allow druid charm.
  • Lifedraw spell proc added to Ghostmetal Shield.
  • Max health of "a faerie trickster" lowered slightly.
  • Rotten Core(s) are no longer stackable.
  • Axe of Continuous Attraction was fixed to prevent a rare but serious malfunction. Thanks Stever for reporting the issue.
  • The Fletching combine to create Quiver of Scornwood Arrows is now up-to-date with the Fletching revamp in a previous patch.

KNOWN ISSUES
  • Archaic: Tarhyl's Raging Curse is currently not functioning correctly. (Fixed)
  • Some disciplines have occasionally been failing to land successfully with an "out of combat" message
  • The new Paladin target of target spells are not landing on Allies. (Fixed)
  • Edict of Pain I is not working. (Fixed)
  • Paladins can target themselves with their damaging discipline abilities
 
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Setting Warriors as explicitly the highest tank dps as well as the best mitigation WAS a bit of a surprise, since they can aggro single targets better than a paladin now and have multiple abilities to deal with ae aggro.
Warrior AE threat in their rework will no longer scale infinitely.
classes are expected to jolt?
Yes. There are two extremes that is a difficult balance. Tanks can never hold threat or dps classes never have to jolt. Jolts exist for a reason and eliminating their need is not the play.
This was the ONE tool sks had,
Let’s be real, Veil was up for 1/3rd of an SKs pulls in exp. How did they manage for years when it was on cooldown? How did SKs and guilds progress before R2? I think in the future a new AoE tool with limited use could be designed, but veil could not continue to exist. It kind of masked the underlying issue of bad SK threat.
few encounters undoable on tier
Remember the lower tier veils are actually below 50% threat shift, so proxy aggro would not shift a single mob to the SK, and if the first veil above 50% was at tier 11, my question would be; which fights? The other point might be, use an enchanter to mezz if possible. We hear how that is no longer viable.
there are pulls where it is simply impossible for a number of reasons
Which pulls? Specificity is important.


The game isn't just about the t57 raid game
T57 raiders are also adjusting to the changes.
The new terror and increase in aggro solved a problem I did not have, that of keeping control of one mob.
This is good.
my dps hasn't gone up much at all.
So we specifically parsed new SKs in putrid aura with a 2 hander. The parses I saw (and reviewed by another) were deemed unusable. The difference in dps, adjusting for items, means there is something going on. Either you are learning the rotation as it is new, or the parses were scuffed. (Which the examples were weird)


DESTROYS efficiency at best,
This line made me laugh. I imagine the personification of efficiency getting utterly obliterated. Hyperbole aside, I will look into EQemu’s melee range function to make sure we don’t have outdated calculations.
Activating any of these abilities, autoswaps my target to my pet
I think pet sacrifice skills will be changed to self target. This will require testing and a patch. But that is my plan.
Stances: Why do they last a minute? Not a lot to say. The mitigation stance is less than paladins (counting spell mitigation which is huge on raids) less than warriors by a lot
I think I could increase the duration. There seems to be enough going on with new disciplines that buff upkeep is too much. Many raiders value melee mitigation over spell mitigation. I think the values are in a good place. Hopefully knights do not suffer from burst deaths as often as they used to.
Is a two minute duration out of the question?
No it is not.
Can this be applied to Jyre
No, jyre already has it’s own separate avoidance chance.
Can we get some hard numbers of just how much SKs contribute to dot weakening?
A SK will contribute as much or similar weakening to a necro when the knight is using rank 3 putrid aura with max vexation AA. Necros will never hit the cap. DOT weakening is factored by your targets maxhp, so it is more effective on low HP target melee hits (smaller damage, larger %). Raid targets will tend to be less effective (but larger damage, smaller %). The weakening is calculated on a per tick basis, so DOTs only need to tick once to apply the bonus for that server tick.

Your post is long, let me close this reply and continue.
 
Decietful Doubt: I am quite happy this was made into a strike instead of a stance. Can we get actual numbers on how the dispel works, is it for sure? What is 'interrupting spell casting' since what mobs actually 'cast' spells at this point?
The dispel should be 100%. Interrupt is only when a mob is standing still casting, and it is a chance. Typically newer/complex content uses procs and scripted stuff. This will be useful for leveling SKs and corner cases where devs have mobs cast.
Spirit Anchor: No chance to test it What does this and doesn't this work on.
If a spell lands on the shadowknight that would decrease your mana, you will mitigate it. It will not work for scripted effects. Some old fight mechanics drain your mana to zero, it won’t work in that.
 
I think in the future a new AoE tool with limited use could be designed, but veil could not continue to exist. It kind of masked the underlying issue of bad SK threat.
I think it would be really cool if sk’s got an aoe dot, even if it’s on the same cooldown that veil was (2min). Having fd be an aa would drastically help the spell gem problem, but it seems that is out of the picture. We got an additional spell and have a discipline that scales based on how many dots are ticking on the mob, but finding spellslots for more dots has been pretty challenging.
 
Spamming pure threat jolt spells generally doesnt feel good as you don't really get any feedback from them. Doing it at the start of a pull is fine / expected, but blasting terrors concuss / blinds jolts when you're 5 minutes into a fight just doesnt feel good and a lot of the time you don't even know if you're doing something useful due to the binary nature of threat. To elaborate further, as long as you maintain enough of a threat lead deficit that someones your next action won't put them you in range to rip aggro or the mob won't flip on them when you the tank leaves melee, it doesn't matter if you maintain that lead deficit by 10 hate or 10 million hate because the gameplay result is effectively the same.
 
The idea I liked:


High cost, thematic. Again this is not guaranteed.

I think it is better to let everyone adjust to the changes before implementing something like this.
 
Spamming pure threat jolt spells generally doesnt feel good as you don't really get any feedback from them. Doing it at the start of a pull is fine / expected, but blasting terrors concuss / blinds jolts when you're 5 minutes into a fight just doesnt feel good and a lot of the time you don't even know if you're doing something useful due to the binary nature of threat. To elaborate further, as long as you maintain enough of a threat lead deficit that someones your next action won't put them you in range to rip aggro or the mob won't flip on them when you the tank leaves melee, it doesn't matter if you maintain that lead deficit by 10 hate or 10 million hate because the gameplay result is effectively the same.
For sure. You could do things like create spells that perhaps were jolts + damage combined. Or apply a damage bonus the larger the deficit. This is kind of the idea for the Paladin skill to produce feedback. ie the paladin can let the dps know they are safe to go ham. (Or that the Paladin can focus on healing)
 
I'm not sure what the goals with threat nerfs are or who they are designed for. It doesnt feel good as a tank, it doesnt feel good as a healer, and it doesnt feel good as a dps. What about the classes without some kind of threat dump mechanic? There are just as many non-tank classes with a threat dump as their are non-tank classes without one. If you have threat issues on a mage or beastlord are you supposed to just take your hands off the keyboard? I'm guessing the answer is yes as that seems to be the solution to stamina management in reworked classes.

What about classes that only have a single target jolt in AoE? What about dps who outgear the tank they're playing with? Will jolts be changed to scale better with gear similar to how healing throughput, damage, or mitigation scales through gear? How will you know how your threat is if your tank isn't a paladin?

I guess I'm just really confused by the sudden paradigm shift to wanting to make dps classes slam jolts all the time and tanks struggle uphill both ways to maintain threat on a castle guard in eldenals. Even in games with threat meters and DPS / tank classes having toolkits with solid support for managing threat it ends up being an unfun and frustrating mechanic.

That being said it seems like a lot of these issues are much easier to work around in raid, but non-raid content (a very large part of time spent playing) just seems less and less enjoyable with each new patch.
 
How did SKs and guilds progress before R2?

The actual answer is nobody played them, like at all. When I made otcho the only other "active" shadowknight I can think of was cvetkaa and maybe some weirdo in bane(okay maybe jenks). the character was made out of necessity because the class was so bad nobody wanted to even consider making it over a paladin. Warriors were terrible too but you had mitigation and /shield to mandate your existence in a raid. Paladins were so much unbelievably better at exp that it just meant you never saw the light of day. Not just better at exp but better at 6 man when people had actual gear concerns threatening their livelyhoods in emberflow when you screwed up a pull in darkelf wing and tanking all the shitty shadows mattered. The changes to not being completely owned by high ping on terrors and veil made the class that much more desirable. You existed as a diversity loot class or to tank a mirror golem or some piece of shit magic immune mob in pofrost. That was your goal in life besides occasionally flopping to mobs and killing them for money.

I dont understand how the class identity argument is used when denying shadowknights the bare minimum ground floor of enjoying the game and being remotely desirable(aoe threat). You legitimately turned warriors from single target autoattack machines who prayed for procs for any semblance of aoe threat to the monsters they were and still kind of are.
 
Yes. There are two extremes that is a difficult balance. Tanks can never hold threat or dps classes never have to jolt. Jolts exist for a reason and eliminating their need is not the play.

Let’s be real, Veil was up for 1/3rd of an SKs pulls in exp. How did they manage for years when it was on cooldown? How did SKs and guilds progress before R2? I think in the future a new AoE tool with limited use could be designed, but veil could not continue to exist. It kind of masked the underlying issue of bad SK threat.
What is the intended purpose for jolts? In my experience it was always something you'd cast early in a fight to let the tank build a threat lead, to drop threat if you were focusing the wrong target, or to manage threat if you outgear the tank you're playing with. There was also the rare occasion where you'd have a warrior tanking a mob with a shield because they needed supreme defense.

SKs typically managed by sticking to zones like citadel with smaller pull sizes or getting a large amount of their exp solo / duo. I can't speak for others but for the last 10 years of playing SoD an overwhelming majority of my exp groups were tanked by a warrior because they had better threat, were more enjoyable to play/box, and also didnt have to worry about stopping to med. So I guess to answer your question, they managed by simply not being played.
 
I dont understand how the class identity argument is used when denying shadowknights the bare minimum ground floor of enjoying the game and being remotely desirable(aoe threat). You legitimately turned warriors from single target autoattack machines who prayed for procs for any semblance of aoe threat to the monsters they were and still kind of are.

This is such a key point, and it applies to other areas as well. Each tank needs to have a core kit that enables them to perform decently in single and multiple target situations or group/raid content, because otherwise that player is excluded solely because of awful developer decisions. Class identity should define HOW they do those things, not WHAT they can or cannot do.

Each tank doesn't need to excel at every aspect, but all three tanks should be able handle most situations without a ton of investment (don't put class defining/enabling abilities or spells behind a grind or huge time sink - players shouldn't have to put in effort for their class to be balanced, that's the devs job), because they enable every other member of the party or raid. It's the same with healers - all three healers should be able to handle group and single target heals without having to grind for stupid clickies or anything else, because healing is literally what they do, it's a core component of their role, and they should have a toolkit that enables this. Again, classes should be differentiated on HOW they do things. The ancient 90s ideology of "this class is THE BEST tank" or "this class is THE BEST healer" has been proven to be terrible, and more importantly not fun. I'm not sure why the devs are doubling down on other people's mistakes here.

If you have a tank that's only good at single target fights, that tank is then going to be mostly excluded from the vast majority of group play, which is why most people play this game, and where people spend most of their time. That's not fun, and that's what this is all supposed to be about.

Stop digging in on bad ideas just because they've been around for a long time and start focusing on things that enable fun and rewarding gameplay. Don't punish players for playing a class they enjoy - enable them, flesh out their toolkits in varied and interesting ways and let them loose.
 
This is such a key point, and it applies to other areas as well. Each tank needs to have a core kit that enables them to perform decently in single and multiple target situations or group/raid content, because otherwise that player is excluded solely because of awful developer decisions. Class identity should define HOW they do those things, not WHAT they can or cannot do.

Each tank doesn't need to excel at every aspect, but all three tanks should be able handle most situations without a ton of investment (don't put class defining/enabling abilities or spells behind a grind or huge time sink - players shouldn't have to put in effort for their class to be balanced, that's the devs job), because they enable every other member of the party or raid. It's the same with healers - all three healers should be able to handle group and single target heals without having to grind for stupid clickies or anything else, because healing is literally what they do, it's a core component of their role, and they should have a toolkit that enables this. Again, classes should be differentiated on HOW they do things. The ancient 90s ideology of "this class is THE BEST tank" or "this class is THE BEST healer" has been proven to be terrible, and more importantly not fun. I'm not sure why the devs are doubling down on other people's mistakes here.

If you have a tank that's only good at single target fights, that tank is then going to be mostly excluded from the vast majority of group play, which is why most people play this game, and where people spend most of their time. That's not fun, and that's what this is all supposed to be about.

Stop digging in on bad ideas just because they've been around for a long time and start focusing on things that enable fun and rewarding gameplay. Don't punish players for playing a class they enjoy - enable them, flesh out their toolkits in varied and interesting ways and let them loose.

Exceptional post from an also real shadowknight
 
Working harder by hitting more buttons and using more resources that force you to med more often than anyone else in the game, all to do the same, or in most cases, less damage/threat is going to feel bad no matter what.

Basically the whole threat meta feels bad, especially in such an old game like SoD. The most fun fights in the game literally have tank code so tanks do not lose aggro. Yet, somehow we are going back in time to make the game less fun to play.

Everyone is once again trying their best to try to speak their mind about how they do not enjoy the change yet know their voices will just go unheard.
 
This is such a key point, and it applies to other areas as well. Each tank needs to have a core kit that enables them to perform decently in single and multiple target situations or group/raid content, because otherwise that player is excluded solely because of awful developer decisions. Class identity should define HOW they do those things, not WHAT they can or cannot do.

Each tank doesn't need to excel at every aspect, but all three tanks should be able handle most situations without a ton of investment (don't put class defining/enabling abilities or spells behind a grind or huge time sink - players shouldn't have to put in effort for their class to be balanced, that's the devs job), because they enable every other member of the party or raid. It's the same with healers - all three healers should be able to handle group and single target heals without having to grind for stupid clickies or anything else, because healing is literally what they do, it's a core component of their role, and they should have a toolkit that enables this. Again, classes should be differentiated on HOW they do things. The ancient 90s ideology of "this class is THE BEST tank" or "this class is THE BEST healer" has been proven to be terrible, and more importantly not fun. I'm not sure why the devs are doubling down on other people's mistakes here.

If you have a tank that's only good at single target fights, that tank is then going to be mostly excluded from the vast majority of group play, which is why most people play this game, and where people spend most of their time. That's not fun, and that's what this is all supposed to be about.
This entire premise is based on the assumption that Shadowknights are not able to hold threat on multiple targets. I am saying they very much can. They should be able to hold aggro on multiple target better than they used to [when veil was on cooldown]. (Touch of Hate -> +1 target). Unbeatable content and experience groups wiping seems like hyperbole to me.

Also, veil was an aggro transfer tool, it did not generate threat on it's own (it did not get modified by threat multipliers). If you were in a group that does not sync well and did not do area damage when veil was up, you would only get proxy aggro at best.

Stop digging in on bad ideas just because they've been around for a long time and start focusing on things that enable fun and rewarding gameplay. Don't punish players for playing a class they enjoy - enable them, flesh out their toolkits in varied and interesting ways and let them loose.
Yes, we fleshed out their toolkits in a varied and interesting way. The reality is that some who are used to a 15 year old server do not like change, no matter what it is.
 
What is the intended purpose for jolts?
To reduce aggro.

I am perplexed why jolts are the point of discussion. They have existing from the dawn of SoD, been implemented into many an item, and suddenly now they are an issue?

"Developers say jolts are good. Therefore jolts are bad!" Is this where we are? Because it feels like it.
 
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This entire premise is based on the assumption that Shadowknights are not able to hold threat on multiple targets. I am saying they very much can. They should be able to hold aggro on multiple target better than they used to [when veil was on cooldown]. (Touch of Hate -> +1 target). Unbeatable content and experience groups wiping seems like hyperbole to me.

Nobody said they can't. Everybody said its extremely unenjoyable to play the cycle nearest target game when you could just play another tank class and do it better with significantly less effort. Its not fun, its not engaging, its tedious, its inefficient. I have recently had the pain of watching gtoo a player who long loaded shadowknight only convert to a filthy warrior loading degenerate because it took him once single attempt to realize how much greener the grass was on the other side.

Watching paladins complain about lack of aoe threat recently was peak hilarity for me btw.
 
To reduce aggro.

I am perplexed why jolts are the point of discussion. They have existing from the dawn of SoD, been implemented into many an item, and suddenly now they are an issue?

"Developers say jolts are good. Therefore jolts are bad!" Is this where we are? Because it feels like it.
They never mattered before because tanks could consistently hold aggro from their groupmates. Now tanks not only have to at least double their rotation depending on how many mobs you have, but you now have to also rely on your groupmates to assume when they have to cast a jolt or not.

It's not a matter of, "we hate change" anymore. It's literally a matter of wanting to know who you're making these changes for if the entire server population is begging for some type of middle ground. There's a terrible lack of transparency here, as we waited around for weeks for this life changing patch only to be disappointed by consistent nerfs again. Let the players help in tuning, parsing, etc. You have a test server, invite people to it to and see if shit feels good before pushing it and never looking back.

This only sets a horrible precedent and all we can expect in the future for any "rework" is gonna follow suit.
 
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