Patch Notes - August 10th, 2021

HEADLINES
  • Shadowknight and Paladin Discipline system rework.
  • Top end dungeon tweaks.
QUALITY OF LIFE - BUFFS
Now that a lot of the foundational systems have been implemented, we have been discussing ways to re-add the quality of life benefits that players enjoy, but within these new systems.

Players have expressed concerns with how variables to raid recovery times clash with the new buff system, the following change is designed to smooth this out.

Currently, buffs do not expire when a player is safe inside a city (eg. Athica while not in combat or PVP); this was a past quality of life addition. We have extended the "safe in city" rule to include areas that allow binding. An iconic example would be the bind location known as "tables" (or table if you're a purist).

DISCIPLINES
A six second lockout timer has been added to disciplines after a player swaps weapons.

TANK REBALANCE
As we move forward, we would like to explain where we see each tank ranked in different categories:

MITIGATION
Warriors would continue to be the best at physical mitigation with Paladins the worst. The caveat being, Paladins will now specialize further in spell mitigation to differentiate them.​
  • Physical Mitigation: Warrior (13%+) Shadow Knight (7%) Paladin (5%)
  • Spell Mitigation: Paladin (7%+)
AGGRO
Currently, the tank single target aggro order is not correct. Warriors are too low due to our weapon balance and Paladins are too high due to Zealous Might aggro multipliers.​
  • Single Target Aggro:
    • Shadow Knight: Single target aggro should be easy and efficient. Other raid members should be jolting rarely.
    • Paladin: Single target aggro should be the lowest of the three tanks. Other raid members should be jolting often.
    • Warrior: Warriors should be between Paladin and Shadowknight aggro, being closer to Paladins. Other raid members should be jolting sometimes.
  • Area of Effect Aggro:
    • Paladin: High aggro on 6+ targets. Easy and efficient to generate.
    • Warrior: Moderate aggro on current target and decent aggro on 2 to 3 other targets. Targets beyond this should produce noticeable aggro loss.
    • Shadowknight: Unbreakable aggro on a single target. Aggro on a second target should be moderate but need to be worked for. Targets beyond this should produce noticeable aggro loss.
SINGLE TARGET DPS WHILE TANKING
Warriors should always provide the largest DPS while tanking. Shadowknights should be second, closely followed by Paladins. Currently Paladins are doing too much single target tanking DPS due to Zealous Might multipliers.​

KNIGHT SHIELDING MASTERY
  • This AA has not been working, it was not adding its bonus to shields for knights (for at least 10 years). It now properly applies its bonus.
BASH
  • The bash damage formula now applies diminishing returns to bonus damage from shoulder and shield armor class as it increases.
  • Using bash currently applies a bonus aggro value that is equal to shield AC; knights receive a multiplier to this bonus value. For this patch, we have increased this multiplier. We feel that bash is an appropriate source for aggro for knights; it scales with level, gear and accuracy. By buffing this source we can spread out aggro generated by more absurd sources. This is one adjustment that will assist with the low level paladin aggro issues we have received from feedback.
WARRIOR
The aggro multiplier of bloodlust has been increased to put warriors in a more appropriate spot for aggro generation. This is an interim fix until warriors receive a full discipline rework.

PALADIN
All Paladin stances have been removed (including aggressive and defensive), and reworked or replaced with Disciplines. We see the Paladin as a hybrid between Warriors and Clerics. Clerics tend to be a bit more melee oriented in design, so Disciplines were also designed to accentuate this. Paladin will be the top healer of the three tanks both while tanking and as a raid utility. To differentiate the Paladin from the Shadowknight when it comes to mitigation, we have further advanced their Spell Mitigation theme. Paladin single target aggro was nerfed, while also increasing their area aggro generation. We have given the Paladin three tools to help with emergencies that arise from aggro:
  • A single target aggro information skill, similar to Jayla's Insight.
  • Fast casting target of target healing spells.
  • A unique taunt skill.
PALADIN DISCIPLINE ABILITIES
Paladins may purchase the following disciplines from the Paladin Guild. Be sure to explore for additional ranks!​
  • Pious Strike - Ranks I to VI. Strike an undead target, banishing their existence from this plane. Has a chance to weaken your target. Has a very rare chance to deal massive damage to your target.
  • Lady's Strike- Ranks I to VI. Bash your target with your shield, dealing physical damage and generating aggro to those around you. Deals additional damage to stunned targets. Requires a shield. This ability should bring low level paladin aggro to values that feel better while leveling. Because this ability is bash damage, it inherits the properties of bash.
    • It interrupts spells.
    • The damage can never crit.
    • Bonus aggro is generated against your primary target using the above BASH rule.
  • Cleansing Strike - Ranks I to VII. Channel a purifying flame into your weapon, striking your target with fire damage. Additional chance to deal a critical strike against Undead. Requires a two handed weapon. Consumes both stamina and mana.
  • Holy Inspiration - Read the tide of battle, gauging how close another player is to pulling aggression off you. Only works if you are the primary aggro to an enemy.
  • Moment of Truth - Ranks I to II. Force your enemy to focus its rage toward you. Only usable in combat. Must be in melee range.
PALADIN DISCIPLINE BUFFS
  • Bastion of Faith - Ranks I to III. The defense of the faithful, granting 3/4/5% melee mitigation and 3/5/7% spell mitigation.
  • Althuna's Fury - Ranks I to III. Faith exudes might! Your zeal carries you into battle, increasing melee damage but decreasing mitigation and aggro. Increases melee damage by 10/15/20%, increases melee damage taken by 5/7/10%, and reduces aggro generated by 5/10/15%.
ZEALOUS/RIGHTEOUS MIGHT REWORK
Due to Zealous and Righteous Might's impact on single target DPS and tanking aggro, these spells have been reworked. Althuna's Fury is intended to provide measured Paladin melee damage, while dissuading from use while tanking. Aggro loss has been distributed to Bash, healing, and Lady's Strike. These new healing spells accentuate the Paladin's healing and spell mitigation strengths.​
Inspire your target's target with the power of faith, healing them and mitigating spell damage for a duration. This buff will also heal them again on their next successful block.
  • Inspire Belief- Target's Target, 287 Base Heal, 1.5s cast, zero recast time, 3.5s recovery, 12s duration, 2% spell mitigation. (Reworked from Righteous Might)
    • Bestow Light - Fade on block, 95 Base Heal.
  • Runic: Inspire Faith- Target's Target, 691 Base Heal, 1.5s cast, zero recast time, 3.5s recovery, 12s duration, 3% spell mitigation. (Reworked from Zealous Might)
    • Bestow Faith - Fade on block, 399 Base Heal.
BLINDS
Blind spells can no longer be overwritten; freeing up a spell slot for some who used two. Paladin blind spells now lower dexterity instead of attack. The dexterity debuff value increases with spell rank. Additional lower level blinds have been added to assist the leveling paladin. Searing light gets a balance nerf as it was out of bounds numerically.​
  • Flash of Light - Decreases dexterity by 5.
  • Glint of Light - A new magic-resist blind purchasable at level 18. Decreases dexterity by 8. Has a magic-resist adjust.
  • Gleam of Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 5.
  • Fervid Light - A new fire-resist blind purchasable at level 45. Decreases dexterity by 12.
  • Blinding Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 16.
  • Wave of Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 10.
  • Searing Light - Decreases targets dexterity by 20. Mana cost increased to 120. Resist adjust lowered to 75. Direct Damage component removed.
STUNS
  • Words of the Righteous is a new single target stun available to Paladins to purchase in late game areas.
  • Descending Judgement has been reworked into Word of the Templar, an upgrade to Word of the Crusader. Descending Judgement provided a lot of a Paladin's aggro while also being predominantly hated by a large portion of developers and players.
HAND OF PIETY
The cooldown of Hand of Piety has been reduced to 20 minutes.​
HEALING AGGRO
Healing aggro generated by a Paladin using single target, self, or target's target healing spells has been slightly increased, outpacing other healer classes.​
DIVINE REFUSAL
The base healing has been increased to 17% (from 13%). Ranks of Divine Radiance further increase this amount. 20, 25, 33, 50%, (from 14, 17, 20, 25%). The AA description has been updated.​
Focuses your fighting spirit, increasing the chance to flurry against undead. Paladins will refuse to die from undead once every 24 hours. Ranks of this AA reduce the cooldown and increase the heal amount of this innate skill.
DIVINE STUN
The AA description has been updated to inform players that this spell generates aggro:​
Training in this ability gives you a new, fast-casting low-resist stun that work even on creatures immune to stun spells. Always generates a medium amount of aggro.
UNDEAD NUKE
Paladins may now learn Banish Undead at level 64. Literally the best buff, so I saved it for last. Nuke on.​
SHADOWKNIGHT
All Shadowknight stances have been removed (including aggressive and defensive), and reworked or replaced with Disciplines. We see Shadowknights as a hybrid between the Warrior and Necromancer classes. Because Necromancers are more spell oriented, Shadowknight Disciplines are not themed around weapon use. Damage Over Time spells were adjusted to play a core role in Shadowknight gameplay. Leech stance has been converted to a short cooldown ability, setting self-healing below Paladins, and above Warriors. A few tools were given to a Shadowknight to address mana sustain, being the cousin of a Necromancer. The mechanics of pet sacrificing should feel better:
  • Instant triggering
  • Failure messages describing when the ability requirements are not met
  • Introduced at lower levels
  • Pet clickies no longer allow for pet sacrificing, being replaced with a class skill
Lastly, a Shadowknight is the undisputed champion of Single Target aggro. Veil spells have been replaced, shifting aggro to new single target aggro tools.

INNATE DOT AGGRO
Shadowknights now have an innate bonus to aggro generated from damage over time sources. Spell casting subtlety for Shadowknights will now also apply to DoT aggro.​
VEXATION OF BLIGHTS
Each rank of this new AA further increases the aggro generated from damage over time sources. This AA also applies a multiplier to the Shadowknight's contribution to DoT Weakening. Excerpt from our forums detailing this mechanic:​
DOT WEAKENING
Weakening effect works by adding up all the damage done to a mob by DoTs in a single tick. For the remainder of that tick, the mob directly deals less damage in melee based on how much DoT damage it is taking in proportion to its HP.
LOW LEVEL DOTS
Low level DoT levels have been lowered to increase usability. New low level DoTs have been added to their repertoire. Adjacent spells shuffled to maintain 1 spell per level.​
  • Disease Cloud - Level 3 (from 5)
    • Locate Corpse - Level 5 (from 3)
  • Clinging Darkness - Level 9 (from 11)
    • Fear - Level 11 (from 12)
  • Fever - New, Level 12
  • Engulfing Darkness - Level 18 (from 20)
  • Heart Flutter - Level 21 (from 36)
  • Virulence - New, Level 30
  • Dooming Darkness - Level 33 (from 44)
  • Searing Blood - New, Level 42
  • Scourge - New, Level 45
  • Boil Blood - Level 48 (from 53)
  • Inflame Blood - New, Level 53
  • Asystole - Level 56 (from 60)
  • Cascading Darkness - Level 58 (from 59)
DISEASE DOT/DEBUFF REWORK
The following spell line has been adjusted and added to. Three of these spells replace the Shadowknight veil line.​
  • Heart Flutter - Duration lowered to 30s, mana cost reduced.
  • Arrhythmia - New, Level 34, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration. (Reworked from Veil of Dis)
  • Heart Panic - New, Level 44, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration. (Reworked from Veil of Marlow)
  • Asystole - Cast time reduced to 4.1s, duration lowered to 30s, mana cost reduced.
  • Cardiac Arrest - New, Level 65, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration.
  • Runic: Heart Possession - New, Runic Two, 2.0s cast time, 30s duration. (Reworked from Veil of Kaezul)
SCORCH BLOOD
A new fire DoT available to Shadowknights to purchase in late game areas.​

TERRORS
The cooldown has been removed from all terrors; freeing up a spell slot for some who used two.​
  • Terror of Gradalsh is a new terror available to Shadowknights to purchase in late game areas.
SHADOWKNIGHT DISCIPLINE ABILITIES
Shadowknights may purchase the following disciplines from the Shadowknight Guild. Be sure to explore for additional ranks!​
  • Meld Bone - Reap undeath from the fading of life, summoning your highest level pet from your spell book. If used on a target that is close to death, the cooldown of this ability will be lowered. Requires melee range.
  • Touch of Hatred - Ranks I to VII. Instill deep hatred upon your enemy, greatly increasing their aggro towards you. Requires melee range.
  • Festering Harvest - Ranks I to VII. Harvest the life of another through a festering touch. The life healed increases with the number of your afflictions on the target. Requires melee range.
  • Deceitful Doubt - Instill powerful doubt upon your enemy, dispelling a beneficial buff with a chance to interrupt spell casting. Requires melee range.
  • Pet: Edict of Pain- Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, imparting its strength to you for a duration.
  • Edict of Pain- A buff granting the Shadowknight a 500/1000 Delay Death life value, 15/25 Disease Resist and 1/2% physical mitigation.
    • Delay Death is most commonly known as "Purple Club", a negative life value that must be exhausted before a player dies.
  • Pet: Grave Pact - Ranks I and II. Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, restoring mana through it's undeath.
The following Discipline skills require ranks in Servant Training to use:​
  • Pet: Noxious Blast - Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, causing disease damage to nearby foes.
  • Pet: Reaper's Touch - Commands your Pet to sacrifice itself, Draining HP from its target and giving it to your group
  • Pet: Ritual of Gore - Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, mesmerizing nearby foes in a spectacle of gore.
  • Pet: Withering Curse - Commands your pet to sacrifice itself, infecting its target with an incremental damage over time spell. This ability counts towards Festering Harvest's heal.
Meld Bone and each sacrifice skill have their own cooldown timer.​

SHADOWKNIGHT DISCIPLINE BUFFS
  • Shadow of Marlow - Ranks I to III. You fade slightly into the realm of dreams, granting 5/6/7% melee mitigation.
  • Putrid Aura - Ranks I to III. You are wreathed in a caustic aura, increasing the damage of all your damage over time spells by 25/50/100% but decreasing melee mitigation by 5/7/10% and aggro by 10/25/50%.
  • Spirit Anchor - Merge your energies with the spirits of the dead, guarding yourself from detrimental mana drains. Mitigates mana drains with a value less than one fourth your maximum mana.
  • Terror Guard - Wreathe yourself in nightmares, enthralling all those who strike you in combat.
FLAYING STRIKES
This AA now increases damage dealt to Ancient and Young races in addition to Humanoid Monsters.​
SHROUD OF THE LICH
Weapon proc moved to slot 5 to allow for more usability.​
UTILITY BENEFICIAL: CONVERSION
Deathly Temptation mana regen increased to 12, health decay increased to 12.​
NECROMANCER
  • Deathly Temptation is now available to purchase at level 40 as a nice step between Call of Bones and Lich.
DRUID
  • Cataclysm mana cost increased.
ROGUE
  • LOIO and Refuge discipline vendor costs have been lowered.
  • A poison vendor has been added to Kelethin, and the poison vendor in The Mountain Crags of Tarhyl has been updated.
  • Nimble Dance duration extended to 10s.
  • Crippling Point now has a vendor cost.
  • Fixed a bug that prevented Concealed Blades AA from working.
  • Gutsy Gambol movement speeds increased slightly. Stamina costs decreased slightly.
  • Wisterol has been re-added to Poison Merchant to allow continued crafting of Savage Frenzy for Marlow quest.
ENCHANTER
  • The duration of the Misdirection line of spells has been doubled.
SPELLS
  • Cleric symbols, Savagery, and Reagent conservation descriptions corrected.
  • Razadian Conservation has been corrected, setting its value at 25%.
  • Flash Powder Ranks I to III correctly state which reagent they require.
  • Flash Powder Rank III now correctly requires a "Flash Powder" reagent.
  • Suffocate, Gasping Embrace, Torment of Gnyrt, Asphyxiate, Chokehold, and Misery of the Swamp spell descriptions updated.
  • Critical Precision spell description updated.
TOP END DUNGEONS

GLOBAL CHARM CREDITS
Initially we only allowed charm credits to drop from enemies with a respawn timer greater than 30 minutes. Based on feedback and additional data, the following changes have been made. A linear drop adjustment has been added because we want to reward more difficult play.​
  • Respawn limit has been lowered to 20 minutes, and lesser charm credit drop chance lowered by 20%. (More zones, less chance)
  • Greater charm credit drop chance increased by 100%.
  • A linear drop adjustment based on enemy level has been added:
    • 20% drop penalty at 55, 33% drop bonus at 65
CITADEL OF THE CLAW
  • Rust Code added for all named.
  • Experience slightly increased.
  • Visiting nobles have a higher chance to rust code named and drop Commander's Orders.
ELDENAL'S MANSION
  • Hybrid-type Rust Code and accelerated respawn feature added.
  • A new visitor awaits your arrival.
BLOOD QUARRY (ROCK SIDE)
  • An additional Rebel Acquisition token quest has been added that involves this area.
  • Rust code added for named.
  • Trash in this wing now drop Yclistinite Bits.
EMBERFLOW
  • The spawn delay on cash named has been lowered to 5 minutes (from 30min)
WEAPON BALANCE
  • Ortananoch's combat innate, Legacy of the Dragonkin, has been altered. Proc rate has been increased, but will fade after five procs. Proc damage lowered to account for a higher proc rate.
  • Entropy's Spine damage proc, Withering Wave, has been changed to a flat damage value instead of a scaling value.
SUNKEN CATHEDRAL
  • Fixed bugs with named mobs spawning - should work normally henceforth.
  • Improved Quest NPC behavior.
  • Wax Fruit increased from snack to meal.
  • Unfeeling alkahest behavior improved.
  • Improved encounter flagging (Thanks Rymy, Marthog, Wuuc, Paxit).
  • Aggregate fungi should no longer fall under the world.
  • Zone quest reward received a bug fix.
  • Tunnel mushroom add spawning frequency reduced.
  • QoL improvements with respect to the amount of items.
  • Revisions were made in the spiral room.
  • Main quest line lengthened a bit - a new bonus awaits for those going all the way.
  • Quest encounter receives rebalancing and items brought in line with the difficulty.
QUESTS
  • A short little quest in Sundered Mountains offered by Freya the Blacksmith that was broken and could not be completed is fixed.
  • Ryzan's Dagger quest which was broken and could not be completed has been fully redone, now accessible by rogues level 60 and above.
  • Previously, killing 6 of 7 required types of stonemites & elementals for the quest "Things that go bump in the mines" incorrectly gave text implying the quest was complete when it was not actually complete. This has been fixed.
  • Gleaming Steel Sword has been added to the Well-Illustrated Treasure Map loot table.
  • Forest of the Fallen:
    • Vaton has listened to reason and will now allow all animal trappings to be done at the same time.
    • Guorth is allowing multiple defenders at once during the Yiv invasion of the Kromtor fort.
    • Gravedigging with Gumdor should work better.
MISC
  • The command system transition is complete. Commands using /cm will no longer work and will display an error
  • Yclistinite Credits can now be purchased in Lake of Ill Omen. Credits are tradable and can be redeemed for their full value.
  • Increased Heart Panic (Previously Veil of Marlow) and Taraztu's Healing Flames drop rates.
  • The Lug Worm has been fixed.
  • The Silent Halls: Soul Hunters of Rajzaa spawns changed to be more dynamic.
  • Cryospine bodytype has been adjusted to 'animal' to allow druid charm.
  • Lifedraw spell proc added to Ghostmetal Shield.
  • Max health of "a faerie trickster" lowered slightly.
  • Rotten Core(s) are no longer stackable.
  • Axe of Continuous Attraction was fixed to prevent a rare but serious malfunction. Thanks Stever for reporting the issue.
  • The Fletching combine to create Quiver of Scornwood Arrows is now up-to-date with the Fletching revamp in a previous patch.

KNOWN ISSUES
  • Archaic: Tarhyl's Raging Curse is currently not functioning correctly. (Fixed)
  • Some disciplines have occasionally been failing to land successfully with an "out of combat" message
  • The new Paladin target of target spells are not landing on Allies. (Fixed)
  • Edict of Pain I is not working. (Fixed)
  • Paladins can target themselves with their damaging discipline abilities
 
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Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
I thought maybe Shadow of Marlow/Bastion of Faith. Engage with rank 3 bastion, once aux is established run rank 1 (2% melee mitigation loss for stamina).
this just sounds like it should be the vision for an entirely new ability with a cooldown, higher cost + lower duration, and more powerful mitigation. Instead of pressing a slightly worse version of an ability with no cooldown and a 1minute? duration baseline

Using wizard spells as an example, each one has a pretty clearly defined use in terms of resource management. Flash flame for big damage but big mana cost, moon comet is the "go-to", 5 mana nukes and riding out arcane echo when you need to conserve, intensify has a 30s cd to be a mana efficient and big damage option when you can ramp it over the course of a fight. You make a choice on which spell to cast based on your current mana, how relevant doing damage at that particular moment is, you have pbae spells for multi target situations etc. You even have spells / abilities to restore your mana. They are the only non-healer class where mana feels like it actually makes sense as a resource.

The knight abilities just feel like the only wizard spell is moon comet but if you want to conserve mana on a longer fight you either just dont any cast spells or cast your shitty level 30 spell instead. Knight abilities are restricted by cooldown so you don't really have the option to burn resources. In fact most non-healer classes that use mana function this way, you just run oom by pressing your spells on cooldown / maintaining dots. This means your only way to manage / conserve resources is to either 1.) Add more downtime to med or 2.) Literally afk / press nothing mid fight. Neither of these are engaging. In fact, both of them lead you towards doing literally nothing and having downtime for wanting to play your character and interact with the game.

How many clerics have ever intentionally loaded blissful light after getting relic big heal? Or shamans casting whatever their vendor spell is after getting woundbane. Probably zero because it not only doesn't make sense but also feels incredibly bad as a player.

It also greatly diminishes the value / excitement of getting a new rank of an ability while cluttering up your keybinds / hotbars.
 

Kapitol K

Dalayan Elder
running out of stam 10mins into an exp group but still being 80%+ mana is a defo feels bad situation. combine that with the fact that it seems like ladys strike and cradeyl give me pretty much all of my aggro, meaning eos gets bagged since you cannot ladys strike with it (glad i formed a guild to obtain this item).

also im way too tanky right now on my paladin and i imagine sks feel the same, while i enjoy tanking 2 young corefires at the same time and never feeling like im in any danger. it seems like that might have broken the games balance quite a bit.

id just like to echo tevs earlier post "yellow mana bar doesnt become a thing for all of the endurance using classes." ive played many EQemus and have seen very creative and neat resource management systems created. so this one (sk/pal) and the rogue one comes off as very lazy which will probably hurt everyone's feelings but im just being honest.

not a fan of the stun ---> ladys strike combo for bonus damage feels like a very bad way to try and implement a slaar esque monk combo system.

not a fan of holy inspiration, was hoping for eniva like red note mechanic where it lists how much ahead you are, instead every time i use this ability (that has a 1min cd btw) it just tells me im the highest on aggro. ive been told there is another msg if someone is close on aggro but like how close? seems like a pointless ability because ill just spam my threat spells anyways regardless of how close someone is. idk maybe i just don't understand something with this ability.

w/e 4 tower on sunday you idiots in my guild and when you rip aggro off me on shojar and fd the entire raid ill just get stever to play his sk.
 
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Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
in a duo with a dps class, i haven't had serious stamina issues since the class is largely functional without using any disciplines except for the mitigation one.
This post pretty much sums up why I find the new stamina stuff to be incredibly off-putting and uninteresting as a player. "I don't run out of resources as long as I literally do not use my abilities"
 

Woot

Dalayan Adventurer
It looks like for a paladin using a 2Her and therefore not using Lady's strike for AE aggro makes aoe aggro a lot more difficult to maintain. Doing some basic testing, using AE blind + AE stun on the paladin and then cataing on a druid causes AE targets go directly to the druid and be difficult to pick back up, whereas before it would take at least 2 consecutive catas for that to happen through that kind of ae aggro using zealous might. Tanking with a shield in and using Lady's on top of aoe blind + aoe stun brings it back to the expected behavior of aggro only falling off on the additional targets after the 2nd cata. Would being able to use lady's strike with a 2Her equipped be a bad thing to implement? It seems like as it stands paladins should just not tank with a 2Her at all, and save 2Hr usage only for when not tanking or when tanking single targets only. Given that paladins can still bash with a 2her in (with the passive AA that allows that), wouldn't it make sense for lady's strike to still be usable with a 2H equipped anyway? If it's the intent to only let paladins AE tank while using a shield then the current implementation makes sense, otherwise if paladins should still be able to maintain ae aggro while wielding a 2h weap, this might be something to review.
 

Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
We set the threat reduction/melee reduction of Althuna's Fury so that it might be possible to exp with a two hander at a slight net loss of Melee Mitigation and Aggro.
On top of the threat / mitigation loss from the ability you also lose the threat ability you can use with a shield, massive amounts of AC due to itemization, and a pretty large amount of block chance. Even just swapping to a 2hander over 1h+shield is more than a "slight net loss", and this stance just makes it even more pronounced.
 

Obscenitor

Dalayan Elder
If other group members need to stop and med, your down times should coincide. If you add fast med into some scenarios then I think it will end up not being a big issue. I reaaaally like your reasoning with dropping down to lower level sustain abilities. It is something I noticed when I made some of the abilities and wondered if this would become another play style axis concerning disciplines.
I realize that might be your view of the goal / final design.. we are not in the place now and I am guessing it will be some time before we are (maybe if ever). Downtime will be determined by empty yellow bar of the knight tank in EXP, not any other class. Warriors and Monks don't need to replenish stamina, rogues do 75% of their DPS without any stamina.. healers don't run out of mana, wizards/mages and especially necromancers all have means to replenish their own mana or the group's mana. No such ability exists for Knight stamina.

The design can't be "everyone else burns faster so that downtime coincides" because that is not how gameplay happens currently, or even in the future... unless we are talking about a revamp to literally every class (not just bard/monk/warrior/bard/ranger) and particular design points that have become features of classes to all centralize on this 'finite resource' model/pace of play.
 

Obscenitor

Dalayan Elder
Also the elephant in the room that I've already partially touched on... no one is bringing a paladin to their raid anymore if they have a choice. That's it, end of story. I don't think anyone can argue around this one as much as you talk about parses and game design etc.

Warrior you bring because highest mitigation/DPS, SK you bring for 'you couldn't possibly fuck this up aggro'. What do you bring a Paladin for? What do they bring to the table that a druid or shaman doesn't? If you are already comfortable on heals why would you settle for a ceiling of 1k DPS when you can worst case box in a monk/wizard and afk do 2k+?

Outside of some oh-shit buttons like lay-on hands (SKs get leech touch, warriors get enrage) hand of peity (every healer has several heal clickies that are equally effective on a fraction of the cd) and protection of the lady (1hr cd is not something you balance/plan around).. Paladins are just flavor.. 3% spell mitigation on MT, okay, that's interesting but also is a rounding error.. ability to AOE aggro 6 mobs effectively? I'd like to see raid content where that is required because I haven't yet.. not meaningfully anyway.

This is not me being critical of the staff or the execution of the Paladin design point, I am just reflecting on Paladins and their usefulness. Back are the days where everyone just plays Paladins for XP. le sigh.

Edit: for clarification I am under the assumption that Knight mitigation with a shield is getting tuned because I have never felt so tanky literally ever.. and I used to have both OG 4.3 robe and Jye.. so what's left after that happens?
 
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iBluNT

Dalayan Elder
Back are the days where everyone just plays Paladins for XP. le sigh.
Warriors don’t have to med or wait for stamina to hold XP aggro. GG

It’s lame that there’s resources you can bring to a group to keep people fueled on mana but Knights still have to be a drag because everyone’s ready to keep pulling but you’re sucking air to keep aggro with 0 stamina.

This design doesn’t seem like a good model to keep implementing. This game needs so much less down time. This isn’t a gripe about the entire class change, I can just see this method of stamina used a resource becoming a much bigger issue than designed for.
 
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Tevinter

Dalayan Pious Diety
Also the elephant in the room that I've already partially touched on... no one is bringing a paladin to their raid anymore if they have a choice. That's it, end of story. I don't think anyone can argue around this one as much as you talk about parses and game design etc.
we playing the same game?
 

Ceto

Dalayan Adventurer
Warriors and Monks don't need to replenish stamina, rogues do 75% of their DPS without any stamina.. healers don't run out of mana, wizards/mages and especially necromancers all have means to replenish their own mana or the group's mana. No such ability exists for Knight stamina.
all true except rogues. rogue out of stamina = awful. maybe pre-rework they did 75% of their DPS with no stamina, but now it's closer to maybe 25%, especially considering they lose their two AoE abilities if they have no stamina.
 

odizzido2

Dalayan Elder
Cool. I like the changes to paladins I think. I always found it strange that the higher level stuff seemed to focus more on DPS than the cleric side of the paladin.
 

Dev-Cole

Developer
Staff member
Using wizard spells as an example
Wizard spells are a bad example. You don't have to sit, memorize, and hope to not get interrupted when using a lower rank of a discipline; you just hit the hotkey, for which there are no limits.

We did have a mock-up of abilities that describe what your talking about, but those ideas can be for later.

We've run off into the weeds, my point was:
When designing ranks of the mitigation discipline buffs, I just pondered to myself "I wonder is players would find situations where they alternate between ranks". A player posted that they thought about it. I thought that was neat. End point.
 

Dev-Cole

Developer
Staff member
How many clerics have ever intentionally loaded blissful light after getting relic big heal?
For a long time Irelc/Resurgum had me using 55 group heals in scenarios where the long cast times was justified for conserving mana. This probably wasn't designed this way, its just something players decided to do.
 

Dev-Cole

Developer
Staff member
running out of stam 10mins into an exp group but still being 80%+ mana is a defo feels bad situation.
Noted and I agree. Whatever we do will have to be clever because some tell me they do not have stamina issues. So it might be a while so that we can gather more intel and see how players adjust.

also im way too tanky right now on my paladin
We made an adjustment to the Shield Mastery block bonus for knights last night.

id just like to echo tevs earlier post "yellow mana bar doesnt become a thing for all of the endurance using classes." ive played many EQemus and have seen very creative and neat resource management systems created. so this one (sk/pal) and the rogue one comes off as very lazy which will probably hurt everyone's feelings but im just being honest.
Yeah I hear you. I was not trying to be revolutionary. I was told to make them similar to mana bars (ie stoic eq-ish) and to remove the old style stamina drain. I think interesting stamina systems might differentiate classes, so we are still talking about this. Let's not forget that most old Paladin stances were mostly unusable/useless. (Aside from spamming banishing strike between server ticks.) I think we have a net gain.

not a fan of the stun ---> ladys strike combo
Not my idea so I take no blame. The discipline systems are just a foundation. Its something to build upon. ie, lets say we have a large content release, we could then use the discipline system as a means to give discipline classes cool things. (like murk/refuge/R1/R2). This first rendition probably will be boring in the same way that pre-ikisith classes might feel boring to current classes. ( maybe?)

not a fan of holy inspiration,
I need to communicate the brackets so ill do that here. Holy inspiration is a ratio of your threat and the next player's threat. The break points are hidden, but here is the order:

1) attention is dangerously divided
2) attention is strongly divided towards
3) attention is moderately divided towards
4) attention is weakly divided towards
5) attention is completely focused on you
 

Obscenitor

Dalayan Elder
we playing the same game?

no we aren't tev, you play wow and log in to a raid once a month :)

all jokes aside, the way things are currently in game versus their vision for tanks (paladins last on mitigation, single target aggro, and DPS).. leads me to believe things will get tuned (like shield mastery already was) until this vision is fulfilled.. in which case.. re-read my post.
 

Woot

Dalayan Adventurer
it looks like after a decent amount of testing, paladin aoe aggro is considerably lower now without r2 and descending judgement, even while using lady's strike, aoe blind, and the 2 aoe stuns on cooldown. Couldn't hold aoe aggro against any more than 1 cata in a fight and had a very hard time getting aggro back after that .. even wiz aoes are difficult to hold aoe aggro on
 

Romulox

Dalayan Adventurer
The new Lady's Strike ability does not work with Jyre. This is the one 2-hander in particular that it should work with IMO. The quested T13 tank weapon is pretty important in the areas that I raid frequently in and I feel that this should be changed. Not every Paladin who raids actively is rocking an Os, the Bulwark. Just a suggestion. Ty in advance.
 

stever

Dalayan Adventurer
The new Lady's Strike ability does not work with Jyre. This is the one 2-hander in particular that it should work with IMO. The quested T13 tank weapon is pretty important in the areas that I raid frequently in and I feel that this should be changed. Not every Paladin who raids actively is rocking an Os, the Bulwark. Just a suggestion. Ty in advance.
You don’t get shielding mastery with that weapon so I am relatively confused why you’d wear it tanking difficult monsters. You are missing out on a ton of mitigation now if you don’t sword/board.
 

Romulox

Dalayan Adventurer
You don’t get shielding mastery with that weapon so I am relatively confused why you’d wear it tanking difficult monsters. You are missing out on a ton of mitigation now if you don’t sword/board.
This is why I made this post. I am asking for Jyre to be flagged as a shield.
 

Romulox

Dalayan Adventurer
This is why I made this post. I am asking for Jyre to be flagged as a shield.
Or perhaps its time for Jyre to gain the ability to be reworked in a forge and worn as a shield. It certainly wouldn't be completely radical to have the T13 tank weapon benefit a tank, now would it?
 
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