Paladins + Shields

A

Aratar

Dalayan Beginner
I feel that Paladins need an incentive to use a one-handed weapon and shield at the high-end of the game. Currently, we do more DPS with a two-hander than a one-hander. In addition, we tank better with our two-hander as we have a style that increases our hate generation and chance to parry (but requires a two-hander). I do not see any situations in which a one-hander and shield are a much better choice except for stats or resists.

Perhaps giving Paladins the opportunity to wield a shield and be able to shield an ally is an option. Warriors were able to 'shield' an ally to give them added benefits while tanking. I am uncertain if they still possess this ability, but I do not see it used on the raids I attend.

Another suggestion would be to add a useful style for Paladins that utilizes the one-hander and shield combination. Perhaps deflecting damage from party members onto the Paladin instead. At least some incentive or situation to use a shield.

As always, feel free to contribute your opinions. :)
 
I'm always in favour of abilities that help a tank tank (as opposed to saying "please Mr mob, attack me and not my squishy healing friends")

A random suggestion:

/cmd guard
and
/cmd guardonce

When you are guarding, you have a chance to intercept (get hit by) an attack round on a PC that originates from an NPC near you.

The base chance to intercept an attack is 10%.

If you have a shield equipped, you get an additional 15% chance to intercept attacks (for a total of 25%).

The only difference between /cmd guard and /cmd guardonce is that /cmd guardonce automatically switches off after intercepting a single attack round.

Details:
In order to intercept blows from an NPC, you need to be on that NPC's hate list.

Multiple players guarding don't increase the chance of interception -- the valid guarding player with the highest hate who isn't being attacked is the one who intercepts the blow.

(Example: We start with 4 players on the hate list:
Wizard (1000 hate)
Warrior (800 hate, guarding, no shield)
Ranger (700 hate, guarding, no shield)
Paladin (500 hate, guarding, shield)
then the wizard has a 75% chance, the warrior a 10% chance, and the paladin a 15% of being hit by the attack round.

Sadly, the Wizard gets squished by the first attack round. The mob turns on the warrior.

Now the Warrior is on the top of the hate list, and has a 75% chance of being hit by a round, the Ranger a 10% chance and the Paladin a 15% chance.

The Ranger gets unlucky and the next two attack rounds hit him. Ranger roadkill goes good with BBQ sauce.

The Warrior still has a 75% chance of being hit, and the paladin a 25% chance, by the next attack round.

At this point, the people involved say "wait a second, we forgot to turn auto attack on", turn on auto attack, and kill the mob. Silly group. On the plus side, a Ranger died.)

Complications:
This ability is actually useful. While it doesn't reduce incoming damage, it does distribute it away from the primary target.

On the other hand, because the max intercept chance is 25%, it never becomes reliable. And all the damage has to be healed.

Refinements:
Different classes can have different guard chances. This makes the "top of the hate list" rule more complex.

It could be restricted to only people with a shield. This simplifies the "top of the hate list" rule.

Intercepting a blow could generate hate. (you are, after all, getting in the way of the mob's intentions)

/cmd guard could be restricted to your current target.

/cmd guard could be class restricted. Example:
Warriors: 15% with no shield, 25% with shield.
Paladins/SKs: 5% with no shield, 25% with shield.
Rangers: 15% with no shield. squish
Monks: 10% with no shield.
Beastlord: 10% with no shield.
Clerics: 15% with a shield. ^_^
Shaman/Druids: 10% with a shield.
Enchanters: 100% with no shield. ;)
 
I asked Xeldan I believe several months ago and he responded that the 2Hander style was in fact not superior to using Defensive stance and the ability Block granted by our shield. He can certianly correct me if I am quoting him incorrectly and Im sure he will.

If Xeldan is correct and i am quoting him correctly the incentive to use a 1h + shield is purely defensive in nature.

However I would supprort the addition of a new stance that deflected the damage to a target or absorbed a portion of the targets overall dmg taken.
 
In a post about a year ago I brought up similar issues. That post can be located here: http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3448&highlight=

In regards to comparing a one-hander/shield/defensive-style to a two-hander/guarding-blade-style Wiz replied:

Wiz said:
Guarding Blade is considerably better than defensive, it's your raid tanking style.
Click to expand...
and
Wiz said:
Guarding Blade will give you slightly more than the benefit of a good shield and defensive.
Click to expand...

It may have changed since that time, but I have not found a definitive answer to that. Again, we do more DPS and tank better with the two-hander, so I don't see a usefulness to use a one-hander/shield instead. I would love to see Paladins be able to shield group members, raid tanks, or have a style for use with the one-hander/shield.
 
Not sure this would really fit in with Wiz's purposed paladin changes...seems like hes leaning you more towards dps than defense at this point. Not to say paladins arnt defensive but if they get both improved dps and tankability that seems kinda overpowered. Not to mention SKs have no incentive to use a shield over 2 handers when not tanking either besides personally prefrence, two handers are on average better dps than a single one hander for both sides of the fence.
 
are you sure you do more damage with a 2hander? have you tested it out? usually with a slow heavy damage 2hander you get to miss alot as a knight class thus missing big hits therefore you just lost alot of DPS as to comapared to a fast average damage knight only sword you get more hits thus more hits do damage and you do more damage plus you get to keep better agro and the bonus of having a shield for more stats and block ability. a knight going 2hander must be insane in the mainbrain, INSANE IN THE BRAIN!
 
Laksha said:
are you sure you do more damage with a 2hander? have you tested it out? usually with a slow heavy damage 2hander you get to miss alot as a knight class thus missing big hits therefore you just lost alot of DPS as to comapared to a fast average damage knight only sword you get more hits thus more hits do damage and you do more damage plus you get to keep better agro and the bonus of having a shield for more stats and block ability. a knight going 2hander must be insane in the mainbrain, INSANE IN THE BRAIN!
Click to expand...

I played a paladin on live for a pretty long time. That being said I used a 2 hander primarily for DPS. While it is true you do miss alot more often the damage bonus from using a 2 hander far outweighed the DPS of a 1 hander. Im not sure if DB exists on SoD but if it does you would have to be insane for not using a 2hander.

Then again Im still lower level and have yet to test anything out to see the difference via parses as to which really produces more damage and aggro, but given past experience I owuld bet its a relatively fast 2hander.


Thorgrym
 
Laksha said:
are you sure you do more damage with a 2hander? have you tested it out? usually with a slow heavy damage 2hander you get to miss alot as a knight class thus missing big hits therefore you just lost alot of DPS as to comapared to a fast average damage knight only sword you get more hits thus more hits do damage and you do more damage plus you get to keep better agro and the bonus of having a shield for more stats and block ability. a knight going 2hander must be insane in the mainbrain, INSANE IN THE BRAIN!
Click to expand...

uh, the chance to miss with a 2 hander is the same as a chance to miss with a 1 hander. Since 2 handers are generally a better ratio than 1 handers, and there IS a damage bonus to using 2 handers, I'd have to assume that 2 handers are generally better DPS.
 
Didn't Wiz say there is no DMG bonus for two handers because there also is no damage cap?
 
Laksha said:
are you sure you do more damage with a 2hander? have you tested it out? usually with a slow heavy damage 2hander you get to miss alot as a knight class thus missing big hits therefore you just lost alot of DPS as to comapared to a fast average damage knight only sword you get more hits thus more hits do damage and you do more damage plus you get to keep better agro and the bonus of having a shield for more stats and block ability. a knight going 2hander must be insane in the mainbrain, INSANE IN THE BRAIN!
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply but most of your information is incorrect or irrelevant. Again, I'd like to press the issue of futility of Paladins using shields at the high-end.

The upcoming Paladin changes thread is locked, so I will ask here: are those changes on the front-burner of the to-do list or the back-burner? Sorry if I ruffle any feathers by inquiring, but I'm eager for the change.
 
Also, since shields don't actually add to your AC, only let you block, and since you can't block when casting, if you are using a constant barage of spells to keep aggro and keep yourself healed, it makes no sense to use a shield at all.
If you are tanking, but aren't casting often, then shields make more sense.
With shammy and SK, duoing the top of elds, the sk is casting all the time, so I use a 2 hander. KIn other situations, I use a shield and 1 hander.
 
Nuncio said:
Also, since shields don't actually add to your AC, only let you block
Click to expand...

What? They do add AC, as well as allowing for more hp/mana/stats compared to a two hander.
 
Shields do NOT add AC to you. It only appears they do. Your inflated AC stats when a shield is equiped are NOT accurate.
Sorry.
 
Really, so the AC SKs get from buying Shielding Mastery is false too? Since you know, shields don't count.
 
Being proven wrong doesn't make me unhappy, having a shitty ass AA like Shielding Mastery does.
 
Mythryn said:
Being proven wrong doesn't make me unhappy, having a shitty ass AA like Shielding Mastery does.
Click to expand...

Well, you were kinda snotty about it.
In any case, I'm guessing shield mastery increases your chance to block, if it just ads 'ac' to your shield? I dunno.

Hasrett said:
The AC shown in your inventory window is, I believe, a client-side calculation. Just like the one from skill modifiers. I believe wiz stated somewhere that weapon skills have a max 25% modifier. Even though two different +% to h2h or 2hs items don't show any more effect on your attack in the inventory window than the stronger one, server-side you are getting a greater effect, and that's what counts in trying to hit a mob.

Likewise, with the AC from the shield, you're seeing some preset calculation on your end that isn't identical to the server-side calculation. As I understand it, the AC on the shield gives no actual armor class, but counts triple (or some such) toward block. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it, but that's the way it is.
Click to expand...

sp4mm said:
As for the rest of you still speculating over things;

Shield AC does not give AC, it turns AC into block skill x2 -- that's how it works, end of story.

I can't begin to comprehend how you say shields aren't worth it, Bone. If you're fighting something that isn't trivial, chances are the knight's DPS matters jack and shit, in which case a shield is the way to go.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom