Paladin Aggro Thread

Had I been able to remake tanks one of the things I would have done is make melee-range spells a thing in general, and then further split melee-range spells into weapon spells, some that can only be used with 1h weapons, others with 2h weapons, maybe some requiring shields. Effects would probably tend toward some amount of damage + some added effect. Could allow more variety in knight spells and playstyles since right now you can use all the same spells to the same effectiveness regardless of whether you are in super tank mode or pretending to dps mode.

But that's not about balance so not really relevant.
 
Though at the same time...

I agree that self-healing power should be equal between paladins and shadow knights, but only insofar as it should be equal between all the tanks. Warriors don't get any self-healing, so tanks should either all be self-healing neutral (excepting perhaps some things that aren't on-demand, like proc buffs), or Warriors should be included in there.

In any case the role of self-healing in tanking is one of the things that I think should be examined if tanks are to be balanced against each other at all. Do lifetaps and self-heals equate to increased mitigation that warriors get? If not, something should probably change.
 
I think in theory the heals/lifetaps are supposed to make up for the difference in mitigation and avoidance, but there isnt enough difference imo. Warriors sks and paladins are too close in mitigation/avoidance to notice, and paladins blow the other 2 classes away in heals.

I think originally war/sk had enough mitigation and avoidance to make up for the lack of heals to make them similiar but with how powerful the paladins heals have gotten they surpass the rest of the tanks in tankability. The only thing that warriors really have now is really good dps, and fun /s abilities, and RESILIANCE AA.
 
Moraelintz said:
I think originally war/sk had enough mitigation and avoidance to make up for the lack of heals to make them similiar but with how powerful the paladins heals have gotten they surpass the rest of the tanks in tankability. The only thing that warriors really have now is really good dps, and fun /s abilities, and RESILIANCE AA.
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Is this a joke? I would rather be a Warrior or Shadowknight hands down.
 
How dare a dev give a class something out of the blue and not give the same thing to a different class for different reasons that were not expressed at the time.
 
Why is no one willing to discuss creating a balanced foundation for tanks rather than putting up with the constant griping and class one-upmanship that comes with trying to balance fundamentally different mechanics against each other while also having to leave room to make changes just so the classes are not flat out awful/boring to play? I guess it's because people aren't really interested in being balanced per se, just as long as their character is "powerful." They aren't willing to risk losing any one single ability their class has in favor of being far more interesting and versatile overall. I saw this pretty clearly with the Warrior changes; even with all the power and more active playstyle gained, people bitched and bitched about every little style lost. There's no point in having a more interesting system in place of something, it's only acceptable if it's in addition to absolutely everything. And so we end up with paladins and shadow knights having all these new spell lines bloating their lists on top of all the things they can't afford to unmem meaning they can barely make use of what they're given even as they ask for more. I guess what it comes down to is that people would rather eat shit every day than put in some effort and maybe end up with a steak.

If you meant why doesn't the game spontaneously reorient itself to give classes certain spells, then I guess I just don't know.
 
I really really really like how warriors play after your changes. My suggestions would be... Just do it. People complain just to complain, not like making some changes would make a difference.

If you could find some cool way to make all tanks the way Warriors do with their ability stances that work off stamina gained through combat + a very very much slimmed down spell book for knights I would support it whole heartedly.

I know some spells in the book are for flavor (I guess) because Paladins and Shadow Knights are supposed to be 2/3 warrior 1/3 Cleric -or- Necromancer, but who really uses True North? I would suggest thinking about what a Paladin would essentially be "in charge of" and build them ground up to fit that.

If they are to be AoE tanks, thats fine. Give them what they need for that low lvls and make them better as they get stronger. Being horrible at holding aggro until years after playing their character (potentially) to FINALLY get Runic 2 from a t11 zone, is pretty bad. However I do feel whatever you get at that point should be amazing as well. Tanking really shouldn't ever be a struggle if that is what the class is meant to do. After a short time tanking, I feel like DPS should really really burn everything to MAYBE grab aggro. Pussyfooting around NPCs to not draw aggro, and limit potential DPS is just a strange concept.
 
Im also not sure why some biggish numbers are kinda feared. If tanks are meant to do their jobs as tanks, give them the ability to do that fairly easily. SK terrors? Why not like 1500 pure hate per cast. Spamming your spells over and over on the same NPC because you know if you don't the Rogue or Monk will swipe aggro seems flawed.

Build in +aggro to nearly everything tanks do, and on the other side build in -aggro to others. Im sure some are partial to their Evade and FD hotkeys, and im sooo sure rangers love spamming Jolt all the time. However, having Warriors generate a large amount of aggro just for being alive and hitting something shouldn't be a bad thing. +50 hate per swing, and just attack/ do some cool abilities that are fun. Knights +30 hate per swing, and cast some cool spells. Just make it fun.
 
Because aggro management is by design and intention a team effort and making it brain-dead automatic obviates an entire mechanic of the game. Keeping aggro as a tank is supposed to be something you do not just something that happens!
 
Slaariel said:
Because aggro management is by design and intention a team effort and making it brain-dead automatic obviates an entire mechanic of the game. Keeping aggro as a tank is supposed to be something you do not just something that happens!
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If aggro is a team effort then why does the warrior and shadowknight team have such an advantage that they dont have to worry about it? Most shadowknights cast a couple of terrors then can basically AFK.

If given the choice to re-roll their class im sure a huge percentage of paladins would change to warrior / sk.
 
Zaela said:
Why is no one willing to discuss creating a balanced foundation for tanks rather than putting up with the constant griping and class one-upmanship that comes with trying to balance fundamentally different mechanics against each other while also having to leave room to make changes just so the classes are not flat out awful/boring to play?
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Personally I am very interested to hear what your ideas are. Please share.

I guess it's because people aren't really interested in being balanced per se, just as long as their character is "powerful." They aren't willing to risk losing any one single ability their class has in favor of being far more interesting and versatile overall. I saw this pretty clearly with the Warrior changes; even with all the power and more active playstyle gained, people bitched and bitched about every little style lost. There's no point in having a more interesting system in place of something, it's only acceptable if it's in addition to absolutely everything. And so we end up with paladins and shadow knights having all these new spell lines bloating their lists on top of all the things they can't afford to unmem meaning they can barely make use of what they're given even as they ask for more. I guess what it comes down to is that people would rather eat shit every day than put in some effort and maybe end up with a steak.

If you meant why doesn't the game spontaneously reorient itself to give classes certain spells, then I guess I just don't know.
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Agreed. Simplify instead of bloat up the spellbook/hotbar. Paladins have a number of Cleric lines that they could/should lose to differentiate the classes and balance additions.
 
How to get aggro as a warrior: Auto Attack+foelock, driving strike+WW or rampage. Repeat as skills come off CDs. BTW while you are doing this also do 300-600DPS or something.

How to get aggro as an SK: Auto Attack+bash, cast some terrors, cast runic 1, cast deflux and sublimate soul as necessary. Do 300-600 DPS or something.

Meanwhile both your groups can pretty much DPS as much as they want since you are doing great DPS and generating LOTS of aggro.


How to aggro as a paladin: Auto attack (lol paladin vah sword does shit DPS b/c it only procs a heal, not a lifetap)+Bash, cast blinds and stuns and shit and hope that everyone in you group is jolting and evading a lot of you'll lose aggro. Hope to god that your ranger doesn't crit nuke and bow for 8k dmg by accident (lol) or he'll steal aggro and get summoned. Keeping aggro on a paladin depends on your group mates letting you keep aggro. On an SK or Warrior you keep aggro regardless.

Seriously Slaariel, this is my first hand experience at T11 or whatever. Memu/Jraul I never ever ever ever ever ever have to jolt really. In fact Memu can steal aggro from me just by attacking once or twice even if I am trying my hardest to keep it. However I can keep aggro over pretty much any Paladin even with -15 aggro.
 
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Zaela said:
Why is no one willing to discuss creating a balanced foundation for tanks rather than putting up with the constant griping and class one-upmanship that comes with trying to balance fundamentally different mechanics against each other while also having to leave room to make changes just so the classes are not flat out awful/boring to play? I guess it's because people aren't really interested in being balanced per se, just as long as their character is "powerful." They aren't willing to risk losing any one single ability their class has in favor of being far more interesting and versatile overall. I saw this pretty clearly with the Warrior changes; even with all the power and more active playstyle gained, people bitched and bitched about every little style lost. There's no point in having a more interesting system in place of something, it's only acceptable if it's in addition to absolutely everything. And so we end up with paladins and shadow knights having all these new spell lines bloating their lists on top of all the things they can't afford to unmem meaning they can barely make use of what they're given even as they ask for more. I guess what it comes down to is that people would rather eat shit every day than put in some effort and maybe end up with a steak.

If you meant why doesn't the game spontaneously reorient itself to give classes certain spells, then I guess I just don't know.
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really what i meant is why is a class that lives to smite evil and maybe sometimes heal left without a mechanic that makes perfect sense for their class, a mechanic that instead while SUPER COOL albeit slightly op was given arbitrarily to a class in order to make the class more fun

this is not a criticism of your work zaela it is just something i cant wrap my brain around, a healing, non-melee class given a combat oriented spell that would totally fit the profile of a paladin

also i dont have balance in mind with this gripe and if it is impossible to balance then ok it's just a flavor thing
 
Classes get cheap spells like True North, and Summon Food/Water to help toons level up casting skills for later spells (like invis and such). I don't know of anybody who bothers with TN for any other reason, lol.
The nuke/heal spell line is very nice, and gave cleric a viable way to be more involved. It also makes logical sense as a pally spell too, I guess.

@Zaela: You should know by now that people fear change, it is human nature. Though, the revamp where knights would have a style system like warriors, enhanced with limited spells sounds pretty cool, actually.
 
A class revamp is a scary prospect. You face the chance that aspects of the class that drew you to it in the first place could be replaced or phased out, you have to put faith in someone else to understand the intricacies, and if you believe some things would not be changes for the better you have to hope that you can present that in a way that will be listened to.
 
phroggonalog said:
this is not a criticism of your work zaela it is just something i cant wrap my brain around, a healing, non-melee class given a combat oriented spell that would totally fit the profile of a paladin
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People needed a reason to invite Clerics into their groups, obviously.
 
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