Observations

[Magister]

Howdy,

I wasn't 100% sure where to put this, but since I will be making some "suggestions" on fixing some of these issues, I figured this area was as good a place as any.

So here goes:

Numero uno with a bullet!:

People, that use alts to jack up prices on "auctions" should be automatically banned, do not pass go, do not collect 200$, straight to oblivion.

Now, a particular item was being sold today in auction, a particular item that I know has a insanely and ridicuously low drop rate (I know this because I have sent waves of people after this item for the past 2 weeks and no one has managed to get one) .. so when I saw one being auctioned off today I tried to buy it, (the person auctioning it off was a low lv toon I think around 16) the only person bidding against me is a lv65.

So I figure they are tryin to jack the price up on me, so I stopped bidding and let them eat the item.

30mins later, I get a tell from yet a different person, asking me if i am still looking for that same item, (I declined), fast forward 30mins later again, I am doing my daily perusal of the listsold and lo and behold! .. that very same item being sold in the listsold of the very person that was auctioning it off earlier (that the lv65 won btw), is there and being sold .

Now, call me crazy, but the chances of an item that no one has been able to get for 2 weeks, drops 4x in a single day and is being sold by 3 different people?

HIGHLY suspect me thinks.

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Issue #2:

Crafters and listsold (and their alts)

Now, I am not sure about anyone else, but when I see the same person and their army of alts all selling between 40-62 items EACH on listsold, I think that is abit overkill.

I mean, for starters, one would think that these people would realise they are flooding the market with the items, that almost no one buys in the first place, but then they go ahead and flood it even more and to an extreme extent, but they dont even bother to change the prices, they simply try to get the same (or in alot of cases more!) than what everyone else is trying to get.

And then the listsolds are spammed out for days on end with all these items that no one will ever buy.

I suggest that there is like a one character per account minimum or something for selling stuff on listsold. I also suggest that people exercise common sense when trying to sell ANY item. I mean, I am fully aware that an item is only worth what people will pay for it, however after watching the same items, on the same people, listed at the same prices, day after day, week after week, with no one ever purchasing them, one would suspect that people would catch the hint and lower the prices due to market saturation.

The same can be said for alot of other higher end items. Its like, I will see an item one day being sold that hasnt been sold in awhile, it will sell well, then the next day, there are 2000 more copies of that item all trying to be sold for the same price as that first was sold for, the previous day. Then people get snarky with you, because they cant figure out why they aren't getting "top dollar" for this item.

I realise this post isn't going to make me very popular, and that it more than likely sounds more like a rant than anything useful.

But I feel that a game such as this, with such a player driven economy (esp. with a limited player base like we have) really needs to watch out for this sorta stuff. A single person can totally destroy a fragile economy quite easily.

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Ok so that's my /endrant I guess. But, just so I feel abit more constructive in this post, I will add a few smaller things down below here:

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I don't know if it's possible, but I would really .. REALLY .. like to see spell descriptions for spells. Like there is a site somewhere, that has descriptions for some of the spells that I have found. I will give an example:

Newbie A walks in and decides they want to make a caster (any caster will work in this example, but lets go with necro) .. so Newbie A starts to level up and gets some spells, and is having a very difficult time trying to figure out what spells do what, because when you purchase a spell, it tells you bumpkis!.

So, Newbie A, being not a total newbie, decides to look around on the wiki, or anywhere else they feel the might get some spell info and finds some VERY VERY basic spell descriptions for the spells, such as:

- Point Blank AoE
- Targetable Increase Hitpoints per Tick
- Targetable Modify Hate
- Pet Voice Graft

Now, some of these make a little sense, some are still VERY VERY unclear.

There is a list of spells that has alot missing, but it will tell you like (20-30 direct dmg spell), etc. This is what I would like to see on the spells when you hold right click on them. I mean, there are people that have never played EQ before, and this is their first experience with the game, and so, it can be utterly mind boggling at times trying to figure out what the heck some of these spells are supposed to do.

I mean, honestly I blame the genius that came up with the system in the first place, because in all my years I have never seen a game totally neglect to give the player any sort of info on what their spells are doing.

(Btw, I would volunteer to actually write this stuff out, if it would help .. I mean if someone actually has all the data. That's how important I think this is!)

Finally, I will leave you with this:

I would like to see the wiki filled in abit more, since it's our only real source of info for the game (because we aren't very much like live tbh). Perhaps in order to generate some interest, some sort of contest could be ran to fill in info for npc's, drop lists, quests in an area, filling out missing, outdated, or simply incorrect info that already exists.

I mean, alot of people chant the "goto the wiki" mantra in game, but while I am sure alot of people do visit the wiki, it is quite incomplete atm.

Just a thought.

Cheers.

 

[gtoo]

First of all, this should be 2 threads.

On your auction whining. Whats wrong with jacking up prices. You are trying to get the most you can from the sale of an item. If you don't want to pay over a certain ammount, don't go above that ammount. You can only blame yourself. Seems pretty stupid really.

It seems that you are unhappy with current prices because they are too high for you to afford.

 

[shebearcub]

First of all, this should be 2 threads.

On your auction whining. Whats wrong with jacking up prices. You are trying to get the most you can from the sale of an item. If you don't want to pay over a certain ammount, don't go above that ammount. You can only blame yourself. Seems pretty stupid really.

It seems that you are unhappy with current prices because they are too high for you to afford.

well, with whatever else is just generally wrong with that kind of sales techniques, wiz's answer to it, in another thread is

Petition it.

 

[Magister]

Ok, maybe it could have been two posts, but nonetheless ...

- It's not that I have a problem with the prices persay. Trust me I have earned more money than most other new people to the game (according to what people have told me anyways). So it's not that I cant afford an item. I just feel when there is 2000 of the same item out there, that never get sold, chances are, is because everyone has one, or has better. So one would think the price would drop in that case. Supply and demand. I mean when there is very little of a rare item to go around, the price goes up right?, so shouldn't it worth the other way as well?

And to be honest, setting aside the prices (which is whatever, fine I can deal with that) I just find the sheer amount of spam that it creates having so many alts, with so many items just makes the lists even more unbearable to flip through than they already are. That's my major beef.

- As for the petition comment, I thought about it. I still might, but I just felt it was a practice that needed to be brought to light as it is a very underhanded thing to do.

 

[Tydarius]

I would like to see the wiki filled in abit more, since it's our only real source of info for the game (because we aren't very much like live tbh). Perhaps in order to generate some interest, some sort of contest could be ran to fill in info for npc's, drop lists, quests in an area, filling out missing, outdated, or simply incorrect info that already exists.

I mean, alot of people chant the "goto the wiki" mantra in game, but while I am sure alot of people do visit the wiki, it is quite incomplete atm.

Just a thought.

Cheers.

Just a bit of info about the Wiki in case you didn't know:

The Wiki is not run by Wiz or the staff of SoD - it was created by the player base and maintained by the player base. If it's lacking information, that rests completely on the player base to update it. If you already knew this then ok, but if not, I just thought I should point it out.

I personally try hard to stamp out discrepancies when I come across them (you'll see my mark in many of the tradeskill sections), and try to include as much updated information as possible. The best suggestion I can make is that you just dive in and start filling in information as you come across it. In game, I try to inform players who complain that the Wiki is lacking because it is dependent upon everyone's input, and the best thing they can do to help is when they find something not filled in, to fill it in when they know the answer. I've see many people complain in /ooc, complain for hours, and finally, when some people help them out, they go ahead and complete the quest / find the MOB and never go back to the Wiki to update the info for others.

Sorry, this may be turning into a rant, but I'm not trying to point any fingers, I'm just trying to say that if you feel the Wiki is lacking, then just roll up your sleeves and make an effort to fill in the blanks.

Peace, and good hunting

- Tydarius :haw:

 

[seferon]

btw some 65's do buy items to resell them.

 

[Diodimus]

I can think of atleast a couple that i know who will buy items at below standard price then try and sell the item for 2-3x the normal price. They pray on ignorance, and since there are a lot of newer ppl in lately(or so it seems) its an effective sales technique.

 

[gtoo]

I can think of atleast a couple that i know who will buy items at below standard price then try and sell the item for 2-3x the normal price. They pray on ignorance, and since there are a lot of newer ppl in lately(or so it seems) its an effective sales technique.

OH MY GOD not supply and demand! Curse those capitalists.

 

[Magister]

Hehe, Ok let me try answer these in order here:

- Yes, I knew the wiki wasn't owned by Wiz. I had read another post somewhere on the forums about them trying to get it moved, because the guy who actually owned was sorta gone or something. I write down alot of notes and I do plan on contributing to the wiki, but I am very new, so everything I learn, I need to recheck a few times to make sure it is accurate.

As far as asking the staff for help, I just thought it might be a good way to help promote the expansion of the wiki is all. I mean, as you said yourself, players will complain, or spend hours trying to find an answer, and when they get it .. they simply dont go back to fill in the blanks so to speak.

So I thought if a little incentive was offered (wouldnt need to be anything major) then perhaps more knowledgable individuals such as yourself would step forward and fill in the blanks

- I am not sure how we got on high levels reselling items, but I think I know and just to clarify:

"I mentioned that the item that the "auctioneer" was selling, and that the "high level" won .. was magically back on the "auctioneer's" listsold shortly there after right?" - Just thought I would bring that up. I wasn't saying that I didn't expect high levels to bid on items below their paygrade (ie: could be for twinks, or a friend, I understand this).

So, let's forget about all this high level reselling, etc .. doesn't really have anything to do with any of the topics in the original post

- Finally - Supply and Demand - That is on topic, and for some reason people understand all about it when it comes time to sell high, but it is set aside and forgotten with all due haste, when it comes time to sell the item low (Ie: due to market saturation, etc).

Thanks for showing interest in the thread though and really do hope something productive comes out of it, such as more people updating the wiki.

Cheers.

 

[gtoo]

- Finally - Supply and Demand - That is on topic, and for some reason people understand all about it when it comes time to sell high, but it is set aside and forgotten with all due haste, when it comes time to sell the item low (Ie: due to market saturation, etc).

There is no obligation to price an item at any level. I can ask 1k for my ve tmaps and there is no way I am going to get that much, but maybe I can sell one for 200 every once in a while if I /auc it at 250. Ultimately it boils down to what the buyer is willing to pay for an item, and unless you are looking for deep FR or basement HHK items, there are going to be a number of possible sellers out there.

 

[iaeolan]

well, with whatever else is just generally wrong with that kind of sales techniques, wiz's answer to it, in another thread is

I'm pretty sure he was responding to the fact there are people who constantly make false bids to other people, then refuse to pay them. The same people over and over just to grief auctioneers or whatever. This is not to people who just bid themselves up, because how can they refuse payment to themselves over and over syduck:

So I thought if a little incentive was offered (wouldnt need to be anything major) then perhaps more knowledgable individuals such as yourself would step forward and fill in the blanks

This was done a very long time ago by a few people w/ money. This was on the very old wiki before the current. It's a good idea until you think about how many items can be listed, how many quests can be half-assed, and how many minor edits can be made. It's unreasonable to expect to keep up with and to make quality fixes to the wiki if only material incentive is given. The wiki is maintained by people who enjoy doing it and who want to help out for only personal reasons. I did a bunch of work on the bard pages for the hell of it but have no interest at all in doing anything else.
Your best bet is to just encourage people to familiarize themselves with the wiki, know where it is and how to edit it, and to input as much as possible in the format that is requested.

 

[Botiemaster]

I witnessed the analness of bidding on your own item up for auction once. It was definitely a confirmed case of it because the person was in my guild and I recognized their alt making bids, driving up the price. I don't support this whatsoever and consider it foul play/fraud. First time offense, jail. Two strikes and you're out. That's how I see it to be dealt with. Seriously, if you aren't willing to lose money on an item through auction which is very much common place, then don't auction it, set the price you want to sell it for and put it in your listsold, period. You reach the same goal of getting the price you want if you were to bid up your items. Hello common sense, how are you today. If you're looking to get more money than an item is "worth" through auction, newsflash: it never happens.

There is a legit reason though as to why people get tells after they lost an item in auction and why a seller auctions off an item and suddenly has another for sale. I know a friend who will send tells to people after they've lost an item and offer up his for the price they were willing to pay. I'm sure he isn't the only one who does it. As for items appearing in a listsold after "it" was auctioned, it is entirely possible that the seller has more than one of said item. I have a stock pile of a few items out there just because of where I exp at. Even though I don't do auctions because I would get less money, if I were to do so, I definitely wouldn't appreciate being accused of foul play. You're right to suspect, no doubt about it. Just, for the record, not everyone is guilty.

If there's people who really make their bids to win and then don't pay up, then that needs to be in line with casinos and bets punishment wise. I would really like to see justice on this matter served.

As far as alts and selling goes, mules selling stuff is a fact of life in every game like SoD. There simply isn't enough space on one character to handle your banking if you're an really active buyer/seller type like me. This is where alts come in. If their stuff never sells then good, let the overpriced stuff rot in listsold. It can't flood the market if no one buys it. I have noticed more people these days have multiple alts selling stuff, more than ever before imo. Sometimes it feels like /cm listview just keeps going and going and going and going with no end. I don't consider it worthy to complain about, though. My only beef with it truly is when it was changed recently. I was really used to the online/green offline/red system and often used the online peeps as a guide back to where I was at in listsold before I hit /cm listsold name to check someone's items out, to speed browsing up. But it's a beef I'm willing to put up with considering why it was done.

In regard to spells, enc cmal 3 hands, tash clicky, I believe has a description. So far it's the only one that I've seen. It's very useful and would love to see more of that stuff but really, in the end it's just not needed. Alittle exploring and you can figure out what most spells do. But yeah I know all about being clueless on spells. After spending the time to learn them, it was all good.

And finally, about Wiki.. all I will say about it is there's pros and cons to it. As far as I go helping out with it, I never do, but that's because 9/10 of the time someone who's with me doing whatever it is we're doing is already on it. So, there's not much point for me to bother.

 

[articbre]

Honestly the basis of this thread is compleatly laughable. If someone wants to sell something at whatever price they want to, or if they want to use alts to "bid" agienst themselves because they feel as if they could get more out of it, if compleatly up to them. In no way shape or form should people get "banned" for doing something that happens in everyday business everyday! If you can do it an pull it off all the better to you if not then they are stuck with the item untill they decided to lower the price.

In live I saw some items being sold for 10-20 times the normal price of the item... and guess what! Some of them sold, huge profit and the person is happy. Selling stuff for over price is what happens all the time. If you feel unhappy about it, go to zellers/walmart/anyotherstoresnamehere. Then tell them your going to close down their store because they are jacking up the prices.

Right there is the end of discussion... if you don't like it don't buy it, get out there and get it yourself, Don't complain about someone trying to make money.

Now because of this subject, I am going to start selling greymoss at 400pp per greymoss. If you don't like it too bad, don't get it.

Articbre

 

[iaeolan]

This guy didn't sell me an item for dirt cheap so he should be banned, okay


You know, even eBay has reserve prices on auctions

 

[Hasrett]

You know, even eBay has reserve prices on auctions

Hahaha I did that once... told would-be buyers that it didn't meet my minimum price after they had done a couple of bids and stopped. People got pissed. I was amused =)

Maybe I should just use an alt to bid it up...

Vaprak, you have some odd ideas about the obligations of sellers here. You seem to forget that, like any other market, it's all controlled by what the market will bear. No one is under any obligation to buy something they don't want to buy, nor are they under any obligation to sell something they don't want to sell.

The solution to the problem is simple: If you don't like the price, don't buy it.

 

[meya]

I don't know if it's possible, but I would really .. REALLY .. like to see spell descriptions for spells. Like there is a site somewhere, that has descriptions for some of the spells that I have found.

[snip]

I mean, honestly I blame the genius that came up with the system in the first place, because in all my years I have never seen a game totally neglect to give the player any sort of info on what their spells are doing.

The reason the wiki is lacking is that there was a decently complete (if really outdated) listing of spells on sod.camongrel.de until it died a while back. Your best bet now is to install one of the spell parsers from this thread. Maimai's one always crashes on loading for me, but the Kobex one has cast time, range, mana cost, effects, target types, stacking, resists, reagents, etc.

 

[shebearcub]

if you don't like the price dont' buy it is a simple and superficial comback to a question that is meant to address ethics and what will be put up with in Dalaya.
Things like the following should be remembered when deciding what's appropriate or not. Just because it isn't bannable or jailable YET doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Adjust your behaviour
Show proper conduct in dealing with other players. Deliberate training, killstealing, griefing, excessive vulgarity or otherwise being a prick to other players will result in severe repercussions to yourself. We try to maintain a friendly attitude and have no place for the socially lacking.

Personally I feel that bidding up your own items or refusing to sell an item without being upfront about a reserve price falls under socially lacking here.

 

[Gorkk]

/agree Grizabella

If you don´t want to sell your item for less than a certain price, start the auction with that price and don´t make people lose their time bidding.

And dont artificially increase your item price bidding on it with an alt.

 

[Hasrett]

Personally I feel that bidding up your own items or refusing to sell an item without being upfront about a reserve price falls under socially lacking here.

I agree on bidding up your own price; not necessarily on refusing to sell. The former is dishonest; the latter isn't particularly nice, but it's not dishonest, deceitful, or, more importantly, harmful to anyone else. At worst, someone has wasted a few moments of their time bidding only to not get the item they wanted.

That said, it's something I've only done once and don't like doing.

The principle of equitable estoppel applies pretty well in situations like this. In short, it basically says you don't have the right to screw someone over. In law, if you have an agreement on terms, there's a revocation period on the agreement (contract). That's a pretty standard principle in any interpersonal dealings. It typically ends when someone acts on the agreement. Equitable estoppel prevents revocation, even if it is within the revocation period still, if the other party has reasonably and in good faith substantially altered their situation in reliance on the agreement. Translated, that means that if I agree to sell you something, I have a certain amount of leeway to change my mind, but that leeway disappears if not selling it would hurt you because, for instance, you've gone and promised it to the mob as collateral for a gambling loan.

The moral of the story is, watch out for Meso's casino.

Wait, no, that's not it.

No, my point is that it's reasonable to change your mind about a sale before anyone's acted on it, so long as no one is harmed (beyond not getting the item or plat they want) by your refusal.

 

[vistachiri]

1st suggestion: Sucks but boohoo
2nd suggestion: Filled with fail
3rd suggestion: Minor, unfeasible really afaik, get a spell parser.