Observations
- Thread starter Magister
- Start date
No reasonable reliance = no negation of revocation period.
Works IRL. Works logically. Works equitably.
Works for SoD.
Doesn't mean you should go around arbitrarily switching things up; I strongly feel that you should do everything you can to deal fairly and reasonably with someone. It's pretty uncool to go back on what you said or implied you'd do, but if it isn't harming the other person, other than maybe letting them down after getting their hopes up, IMHO it shouldn't be prohibited, and it's really not that reprehensible. Just kinda jerkish. Srsly, though, who here hasn't been a jerkface on SoD before?
Works IRL. Works logically. Works equitably.
Works for SoD.
Doesn't mean you should go around arbitrarily switching things up; I strongly feel that you should do everything you can to deal fairly and reasonably with someone. It's pretty uncool to go back on what you said or implied you'd do, but if it isn't harming the other person, other than maybe letting them down after getting their hopes up, IMHO it shouldn't be prohibited, and it's really not that reprehensible. Just kinda jerkish. Srsly, though, who here hasn't been a jerkface on SoD before?
Wow ok, I don't know how we all got on the whole "Price Wars" thing and the "If you don't like it, don't buy it" .. Do people read?
- The first part of my original post dealt with someone using alt's to jack up the price on an item. I felt this was a very dirty and underhanded way to go about auctioning off an item, and yes, I did exercise my right to not buy the item, both on the auction and later on when the guy tried to sell it to me again under yet another alt's name.
It had nothing to do with the price whatsoever. It had to do with how the item got to that price. The entire topic was about basically ... cheating on auctions. It wasn't that I couldn't afford the item (hell I spent over 2000plat yesterday), It was the principle of the matter.
- The 2nd topic, was strictly dealing with how spammy listsold can get, partly due to the fact (sorry griz hehe) because of people with massive bot armies selling 40,50,60+ items each. Now yes, I can appreciate the effort it takes to get your crafting skills up and start to make the really nice items, and yes I can appreciate how much it costs in order to do that, and I can also appreciate the need to be reimbursed for that work by selling your trade crafts.
I just wish there was some way it was less spammy to peruse the various sellers is all. That's it. No big controversial topic
- Finally, I think the last two are fairly self explanatory. I don't think it's wrong of me to ask that spells be a little more "newbie friendly" with descriptions added. Heck I even offered to add them all in myself, provided someone could give me the correct info to add.
The wiki, yes I understand its a massive undertaking, and there is alot of really good info, just alot of stuff missing as well. I didn't think that having a small contest to fill the wiki in more would be such a big deal. I mean, there was just a contest to get 10,000 deaths so lol. At least my idea would be productive
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So, I hope that clears the subject matter up a little. I don't mind getting flamed for saying what I believe to be correct, but I like to make sure people understand what I am trying to say so they can at least flame me appropriately lol.
Before I go though, I would just like to say this:
Ethics and something called "Online Etiquette" Do exist. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but certain things just shouldn't be done. Such as bidding up an item of your own, with an alt, or jumping into the middle of an auction when the bidding is starting to get hot, and undercutting the auctioneer, in order to draw his bidders away. These types of things are just as bad someone walking upto someone elses kill and stealing it. (Which is a big no no here).
I mean, people use the same argument over and over "it's just a game" or "don't like it, too bad - basically". and then some people will go on to provide real life examples to try to back up their claims.
See, there are a couple of flaws with this though, I mean for starters, yes it is a game. However, it is a game populated with real life people. Thus, Etiquette dictates that certain things be adhered to. If you were running around the game by yourself (ie: single player) then there wouldn't be an issue. However, since you are dealing with real people, the rules change.
As for real life examples, pretty much anything that can be said for, has a better argument for against, I will give an example:
(In game)
Someone tries to sell an item on auction, someone jumps in midway and announces they have the same item at half the price .. all the bidders retract their bids and try to get that other item.
(Real life for
Someone posts an item on eBay for 20$, someone under him posts the same item for 10$.
(Real life against
You are at an auction house, the auctioneer is taking bids on ... (let's say oh I dunno) a, medevil suit of armor. Some guy stands up during the bidding and declares he has the same item in his personal collection he will sell at half the price.
Now, chances are the guy is going to tossed out and banned from the premises, if not out right arrested and at the very least fined heavily.
I mean, common sense people. Certain rules exist to minimize griefing and maximize enjoyment in area of entertainment, trying to come up with loopholes to get around these doesn't help anyone.
Cheers.
- The first part of my original post dealt with someone using alt's to jack up the price on an item. I felt this was a very dirty and underhanded way to go about auctioning off an item, and yes, I did exercise my right to not buy the item, both on the auction and later on when the guy tried to sell it to me again under yet another alt's name.
It had nothing to do with the price whatsoever. It had to do with how the item got to that price. The entire topic was about basically ... cheating on auctions. It wasn't that I couldn't afford the item (hell I spent over 2000plat yesterday), It was the principle of the matter.
- The 2nd topic, was strictly dealing with how spammy listsold can get, partly due to the fact (sorry griz hehe) because of people with massive bot armies selling 40,50,60+ items each. Now yes, I can appreciate the effort it takes to get your crafting skills up and start to make the really nice items, and yes I can appreciate how much it costs in order to do that, and I can also appreciate the need to be reimbursed for that work by selling your trade crafts.
I just wish there was some way it was less spammy to peruse the various sellers is all. That's it. No big controversial topic
- Finally, I think the last two are fairly self explanatory. I don't think it's wrong of me to ask that spells be a little more "newbie friendly" with descriptions added. Heck I even offered to add them all in myself, provided someone could give me the correct info to add.
The wiki, yes I understand its a massive undertaking, and there is alot of really good info, just alot of stuff missing as well. I didn't think that having a small contest to fill the wiki in more would be such a big deal. I mean, there was just a contest to get 10,000 deaths so lol. At least my idea would be productive
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So, I hope that clears the subject matter up a little. I don't mind getting flamed for saying what I believe to be correct, but I like to make sure people understand what I am trying to say so they can at least flame me appropriately lol.
Before I go though, I would just like to say this:
Ethics and something called "Online Etiquette" Do exist. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but certain things just shouldn't be done. Such as bidding up an item of your own, with an alt, or jumping into the middle of an auction when the bidding is starting to get hot, and undercutting the auctioneer, in order to draw his bidders away. These types of things are just as bad someone walking upto someone elses kill and stealing it. (Which is a big no no here).
I mean, people use the same argument over and over "it's just a game" or "don't like it, too bad - basically". and then some people will go on to provide real life examples to try to back up their claims.
See, there are a couple of flaws with this though, I mean for starters, yes it is a game. However, it is a game populated with real life people. Thus, Etiquette dictates that certain things be adhered to. If you were running around the game by yourself (ie: single player) then there wouldn't be an issue. However, since you are dealing with real people, the rules change.
As for real life examples, pretty much anything that can be said for, has a better argument for against, I will give an example:
(In game)
Someone tries to sell an item on auction, someone jumps in midway and announces they have the same item at half the price .. all the bidders retract their bids and try to get that other item.
(Real life for
Someone posts an item on eBay for 20$, someone under him posts the same item for 10$.
(Real life against
You are at an auction house, the auctioneer is taking bids on ... (let's say oh I dunno) a, medevil suit of armor. Some guy stands up during the bidding and declares he has the same item in his personal collection he will sell at half the price.
Now, chances are the guy is going to tossed out and banned from the premises, if not out right arrested and at the very least fined heavily.
I mean, common sense people. Certain rules exist to minimize griefing and maximize enjoyment in area of entertainment, trying to come up with loopholes to get around these doesn't help anyone.
Cheers.
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
Magister said:
I really don't want to live in whatever country you live in.
Otherwise though, I agree with your first point. I don't spend a lot of time in /auc, I prefer to get my gear from raiding and the only items I buy with regularity are augs, but the idea of someone artificially raising the price of their item under the guise of a free auction galls me, and I don't think it should be encouraged.
In regard to listsold, it's there so that people can list items. If they want to take the time to maintain a bot army, more power to them. I would only ask that if people are going to have a large "army" of listsolds that they label them well, so that they can be browsed through easily.
Editing every single spell in the database to display a description would at best be time-consuming. I don't think anyone says it's a bad idea per se, but the time involved would probably not be well spent, in comparison to completing new quests, new zones, fixing gameplay bugs, etc.
The other reason that staff doesn't get involved in the wiki is that if there was an official reward for wiki entries then the staff would also become at least partially responsible for verifying that information; they don't have the time, and in all honesty would probably prefer that players learn about the game by exploring, rather than looking up a walkthrough.
Lol. I live in Canada, but I am fairly certain that if anyone actually tried to do that in an auction house, it would have some serious ramifications on their social life for the next little while
As for the spells, Yes, I totally understand there are A L O T of spells hehe, but I did offer to add them in myself so (I am not sure what would be involved but I can't see it being over complicated really) I have created new quests, npc's, items, etc in various other games on privately funded servers and in most(not all) cases, it's a simple txt file edit
Just as you said, time consuming
As for your point on the wiki. Yes that is a very valid point, I will grant you that. Experience is the best teacher. However, a little motivation, or even a little nudge in the right direction can make all the difference
In any case, thanks for being one of the few non-flame posts on the thread lol.
Now, I belive the server should hopefully be up once more, so back into the fray for me.
Cheers all.
As for the spells, Yes, I totally understand there are A L O T of spells hehe, but I did offer to add them in myself so
(I am not sure what would be involved but I can't see it being over complicated really) I have created new quests, npc's, items, etc in various other games on privately funded servers and in most(not all) cases, it's a simple txt file edit Just as you said, time consuming
As for your point on the wiki. Yes that is a very valid point, I will grant you that. Experience is the best teacher. However, a little motivation, or even a little nudge in the right direction can make all the difference
In any case, thanks for being one of the few non-flame posts on the thread lol.
Now, I belive the server should hopefully be up once more, so back into the fray for me.
Cheers all.
Walls of text are fun.
Example B:
Which example, A or B, is more analogous to the /auc channel? Is it the open, public venue [subject to the regulations and loose moderation of the ebay administrators] or the formalized, private venue?
Saying that Seller A may not offer his goods at a lower price than Seller B because it's mean to Seller B is the exact same as saying that Buyer X can't offer more money for an item than Buyer Y. I don't see you objecting to an open auction favoring the seller; why can there be no equivalent bidding or one-upping of sellers in order to entice a buyer?
Granted, it's usually a better idea for the seller to wait for the auction to finish, then to just send a tell to the second highest bidder... but in some cases, the seller may be more interested in selling the item for a fair price than in making money, or more interested in helping out a newbie who needs an item than in making money.
Furthermore, there's something to be said for having the integrity to sell an item at its fair value even when potential buyers might not realize how common it is and be willing to pay more than they should. For example, Tinkered Gloves. Solo in the heartland robot caves for about two hours in the low 40s and you'll probably see 3-6 of these drop. Merchants won't buy them. They have very nice stats for a newbie, a low rec level if any (I don't recall which), and typically sell for 5-10p. If a new player who didn't know the market saw them, he might well think it'd be worth spending 20, 30, 40, 50 plat on them, not knowing that he could get them for far less.
So tell me, which of the following is immoral (choose all that apply)?
A) Tell the newbie before he bids what the going rate is.
B) Tell the newbie after he bids, but before the price gets too high, what the going rate is.
C) Tell the newbie after the bidding gets to double the going rate what the going rate is.
D) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and suggest that he auction WTB at that price.
E) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and suggest that he check with a certain person to see if they have it at that price.
F) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and tell him that a certain person is selling for that cost.
G) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and tell him that a certain person is selling for that cost... when that person is you.
Or is it morally preferable to let the newbie spend all of his hard-earned money on something he could have purchased for a fraction of the cost, simply because he did not know the market?
Please explain where the cutoff is.
Edit: removed some of the passive aggressive rudeness, but left the obnoxious repetition and overstatement in because it amuses me... and it fits so well with my wall of text =P
See that bolded part? That's editorialism, and it involves a huge assumption. You know what they say about ass + u + me. You're attributing a motive to the second seller that's probably almost never accurate. They could be selling it for cheaper to A) sell the item; B) make some plat; C) help out someone who needs an item; or D) something else entirely.Magister said:
Who defines the etiquette? You? Me? Common practices? It seems to me from the following part of your argument that you're arguing for common practices. To figure out the applicable etiquette, then we need to come up with a situation that's what we call analogous. Let's see how you do with that.
Example A:
In this example, we have an open forum with an essentially unrestricted multitude of people selling things by way of a venue that allows them to display their goods to the public, so that anyone in the public may bid on said goods.
Example B:
In this example, we have a closed forum with one entity selling consigned (usually) goods to a restricted audience gathered for the purpose of perusing the goods auctioned by said lone seller, within the confines of said lone seller's own premises, in observance of enumerated bidding guidelines, and in which the sale of other goods by other parties is forbidden at least by local statute (merchants on private or public use property without a permit), if not by express agreement.
Which example, A or B, is more analogous to the /auc channel? Is it the open, public venue [subject to the regulations and loose moderation of the ebay administrators] or the formalized, private venue?
Common sense indeed! Griefing is targeted harassment of an individual or impediment of that individual's gameplay. Participating in an open market is to griefing as eating mangos is to fucking a goat. As entertaining as they both may be, there's no actual relationship between the two.
Saying that Seller A may not offer his goods at a lower price than Seller B because it's mean to Seller B is the exact same as saying that Buyer X can't offer more money for an item than Buyer Y. I don't see you objecting to an open auction favoring the seller; why can there be no equivalent bidding or one-upping of sellers in order to entice a buyer?
Granted, it's usually a better idea for the seller to wait for the auction to finish, then to just send a tell to the second highest bidder... but in some cases, the seller may be more interested in selling the item for a fair price than in making money, or more interested in helping out a newbie who needs an item than in making money.
Furthermore, there's something to be said for having the integrity to sell an item at its fair value even when potential buyers might not realize how common it is and be willing to pay more than they should. For example, Tinkered Gloves. Solo in the heartland robot caves for about two hours in the low 40s and you'll probably see 3-6 of these drop. Merchants won't buy them. They have very nice stats for a newbie, a low rec level if any (I don't recall which), and typically sell for 5-10p. If a new player who didn't know the market saw them, he might well think it'd be worth spending 20, 30, 40, 50 plat on them, not knowing that he could get them for far less.
So tell me, which of the following is immoral (choose all that apply)?
A) Tell the newbie before he bids what the going rate is.
B) Tell the newbie after he bids, but before the price gets too high, what the going rate is.
C) Tell the newbie after the bidding gets to double the going rate what the going rate is.
D) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and suggest that he auction WTB at that price.
E) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and suggest that he check with a certain person to see if they have it at that price.
F) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and tell him that a certain person is selling for that cost.
G) Tell the newbie at any point what the going rate is and tell him that a certain person is selling for that cost... when that person is you.
Or is it morally preferable to let the newbie spend all of his hard-earned money on something he could have purchased for a fraction of the cost, simply because he did not know the market?
Please explain where the cutoff is.
Edit: removed some of the passive aggressive rudeness, but left the obnoxious repetition and overstatement in because it amuses me... and it fits so well with my wall of text =P
shebearcub
Dalayan Beginner
while it's way off topic now i put up all those bots to make it easier for the consumer to find and buy what i make. It's a simple system that works for me. I wouldn't have the patience to use an open auction. The only real point I have to make is it's far better to do what you say, and say what you mean up front.
I don't bother with people who don't sell after they've agreed to or try in whatever ways to get me to pay more for something. Who loses out in this? Not me. and Iae, personally - I would take the lower payment for my item because I agreed to it to start with. In my experiance the game is just funner that way.
I don't bother with people who don't sell after they've agreed to or try in whatever ways to get me to pay more for something. Who loses out in this? Not me. and Iae, personally - I would take the lower payment for my item because I agreed to it to start with. In my experiance the game is just funner that way.
I do the same... it's the nice thing to do, tends to keep you on better terms with folks. I don't really think Iae's way of doing things is horribly wrong, though. Sucks for the other guy, but I don't blame him, and wouldn't hold it against him if it happened to me.Grizabella said:
iaeolan
Dalayan Elder
This actually happens all the time. I get multiple tells for an item and just have an auction between these folks behind the public's awareness.
I say a price in auction, person send me a tell, I say sure I will send it when I can, next person asks about it I tell them someone has claimed it already, they offer more, I go to the first person and ask them if they want to beat the price.
I say a price in auction, person send me a tell, I say sure I will send it when I can, next person asks about it I tell them someone has claimed it already, they offer more, I go to the first person and ask them if they want to beat the price.
Lol Hasrett .. I think you left some of that passive aggressive text in there
But that's ok, I know what you mean and why you said what you said. I won't bother to go into it here. However, I will agree I guess my auction examples could be skewed slightly, but it doesn't change the fact that the "drawing his bidders away" part stands.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions", they say that for a reason .. So despite whatever that 2nd seller's intentions may be, he is still doing a great dis-service to the original seller, or doesn't he matter? or does he simply matter less than the purchasers?
See my point?
I tend to be pretty liberal with my money, I will allow people to take all the loot, I will help friends earn money, I always try to sell my items at a fair price, however, I just feel certain practices need to be maintained, if I miss out on selling an item because someone else is in the process of selling one, I simply wait, I don't try to jump his sale.
(Ya know, I got this whole bit I would LIKE to add in here, in regards to further parts of your post, but it's really not going to go anywhere, your going to stick to your guns on the subject while sticking up for your guild mate, and I am going to stick to my guns, so I will just skip the flamebait and move right along, saying we will have to agree to disagree).
Anyways, Sorry griz if you felt I was singling you out hehe, was not my intention .. You just happened to jump to mind first. It's not that I mind people using alts, it's more a problem with the listsold system itself. It's just not a very sleek system. It would need to be totally re-designed to allow for easier viewing and would take a great deal of time to do and probably will never happen.
(Edit--
Re-read Iaeolan's post just above and felt the need to interject a thought here:
You sell a item to someone, then before you send it, if you get another tell, you tell them it's been claimed and then you proceed to ask "unless you want to pay more for it?" ...
See, I think that is pretty bogus there - I mean, the first person already paid what you are asking, and the deal has been struck so to speak. I mean, I guess it is your item, and you can sell it to whomever you wish, I just feel that is a pretty shady thing to do personally .
Perhaps I mis-read the post, but that is what I took from it.
I just feel once a item is sold, it's sold. If someone would have paid more, oh well, I will try to get another, but to basically take back the item from someone I have already agreed to sell it to, by not sending it to them, and turning around and selling it to someone else after I have agreed to sell it, just to make a few extra coins ... just doesn't sit well
But that's ok, I know what you mean and why you said what you said. I won't bother to go into it here. However, I will agree I guess my auction examples could be skewed slightly, but it doesn't change the fact that the "drawing his bidders away" part stands.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions", they say that for a reason
.. So despite whatever that 2nd seller's intentions may be, he is still doing a great dis-service to the original seller, or doesn't he matter? or does he simply matter less than the purchasers?See my point?
I tend to be pretty liberal with my money, I will allow people to take all the loot, I will help friends earn money, I always try to sell my items at a fair price, however, I just feel certain practices need to be maintained, if I miss out on selling an item because someone else is in the process of selling one, I simply wait, I don't try to jump his sale.
(Ya know, I got this whole bit I would LIKE to add in here, in regards to further parts of your post, but it's really not going to go anywhere, your going to stick to your guns on the subject while sticking up for your guild mate, and I am going to stick to my guns, so I will just skip the flamebait and move right along, saying we will have to agree to disagree).
Anyways, Sorry griz if you felt I was singling you out hehe, was not my intention
.. You just happened to jump to mind first. It's not that I mind people using alts, it's more a problem with the listsold system itself. It's just not a very sleek system. It would need to be totally re-designed to allow for easier viewing and would take a great deal of time to do and probably will never happen.(Edit--
Re-read Iaeolan's post just above and felt the need to interject a thought here:
You sell a item to someone, then before you send it, if you get another tell, you tell them it's been claimed and then you proceed to ask "unless you want to pay more for it?" ...
See, I think that is pretty bogus there
- I mean, the first person already paid what you are asking, and the deal has been struck so to speak. I mean, I guess it is your item, and you can sell it to whomever you wish, I just feel that is a pretty shady thing to do personally .Perhaps I mis-read the post, but that is what I took from it.
I just feel once a item is sold, it's sold. If someone would have paid more, oh well, I will try to get another, but to basically take back the item from someone I have already agreed to sell it to, by not sending it to them, and turning around and selling it to someone else after I have agreed to sell it, just to make a few extra coins ... just doesn't sit well
taishar said:
Confirming this. An auction is meant to sell to the person who offers the most. Its not like its some binding agreement when I say congrats you are the highest bidder. If someone sends a late offer before the item is sent then I will give the original winner the chance to counteroffer and go with the highest bidder. That said usually I do auctioning in a town and I send the item within like 2 minutes, so I think this has only happened to me once or twice.
What gives the original seller an inviolate right to the potential purchasers? It's an OPEN MARKET. Anyone who wants to can speak up to RAISE the price; why is it so terribly immoral for someone else to speak up to LOWER the price. That's what the whole free market thing is about. Competition. You seem to think it's somehow morally wrong--leading you straight to hell!--to sell an item in a public channel while someone else is selling the same item for more.Magister said:Lol Hasrett .. I think you left some of that passive aggressive text in there
But that's ok, I know what you mean and why you said what you said. I won't bother to go into it here. However, I will agree I guess my auction examples could be skewed slightly, but it doesn't change the fact that the "drawing his bidders away" part stands.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions", they say that for a reason
See my point?
You failed to explain what distinguishes it from a buyer outbidding another. Despite whatever that 2nd buyer's intentions may be, he is still doing a great dis-service to the original buyer, or doesn't he matter?
Your argument is based on pseudophilosophic platitudes. It's illogical and unreasonable, but by damn, who cares, as long as you can back it up with an adage or two!
shebearcub
Dalayan Beginner
Eldorath said:
It's a bit different then auctioning wts diamond 100pp.
I send a tell saying I'll buy and you say sure I'll send it when i get to town.
Then however much longer I get a tell saying someone will pay me 110 will you pay more?
First off I have to trust there really is someone else that will pay more, and I'm not just being pressured to pay more - and then there's the fact that you already said you'd sell it to me at 100.
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
iaeolan said:
I think the logic is that you follow through with the agreement you made, it has little to nothing to do with the price. You said you would send them the item at that price, and then you didn't.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Hasrett said:
The real reason to read this thread.