Monk FD & Weight Limit

[Monance]

[Wed Jul 18 15:18:42 2007] You broadcast, 'Are there plans of raising the monk weight limit over 19 at level 65 and will there be any way to raise monk FD over with item skill mods or the new Exp Tome system?'

[Wed Jul 18 15:19:04 2007] Admin-Wiz BROADCASTS, 'We have no current plans to increase either fd or weight limit, but you're free to make a pitch for it on the forums as always.'

Feign Death

This is in no way supposed to be a rant. I quit Live a while after Gates came out (because i was kinda pissed off at Berserkers not really getting the attention they should) but i still played my monk at that time, and god i was so happy to see another AA that helped with my FD. I am talking about the Spell Resist AA while FD (in case you don't remember, it was about additonal spell resistance on a feigned monk).

As it is right now, theres exactly 1 AA (well 3 steps of that 1 AA) that gives u a shorter recast on Feign Death as a monk. I greatly enjoy this AA, as it makes it much easier to split casters. It is however the only improvement Monks get on their main skill.

SKs/Necros don't get that AA because they have instant recast on their higher level FD spell anyway. They do get AAs to make their spells fizzle less, which is kind of an improvement to their FD. Even without that AA though, SK/Necro FD is much more reliable.

As it is a spell, it also gets bonuses from channeling AAs and specialization foci.

To my knowledge, monk FD is not improved by anything except Rapid Feign (which is not really an improvement as the success rate on FD isnt affected), whereas SK/Necro FD gets a bunch of bonuses from various spell and channeling AAs. Also there is ways to improve your Casting skill with item mods (im not sure if its Conjuration or w/e, but u get the point)

Monk FD however is capped at 200. There is no way to further advance it with item effects (as far as i know, correct me if im wrong) so it basically stays the same from level 39 on, at least when it gets to success rate. I was once under the impression that monks should be the best FD class. I gave up on that a few years ago already, as i can see how the FD not being a spell makes it kind of hard to alter it.

I have a few suggestions you might take into consideration:

1. Another Line of Rapid Feign AAs to further lower the Recast time
2. Implementation of a Feign Death Item Mod, to raise monk FD over 200
3. In response to the Topic "Exp Tomes to further advance after a certain amount of AAs" it would be possible to obtain a Tome that further increases ur chance to successfully FD: I think this would be a nice upgrade, so maybe open it up for people beyond 250 AAs


Monk Weight Limit

I'm too lazy to search for the formula right now, but that doesnt matter anyways, as i am talking about 65+ monks. As it is right now the limit is a bit over 19 stones. Just as a reminder: On Live at level 65 the limit was 25 (I quit after Gates so i dont really know what happened after that, they might have raised it more at 70 etc) and that was already a close call. There was a buttload of great weight reducing bags out there, and the monk weight limit was kind of useless at some point when you had the right bags on you.

Now in SoD, there is WR bags as well. But TBH most of them suck, not only for a monk. It was pretty hard to level up as a main monk without having played something else before. You cant really loot when youre soloing, you have to tell people to turn autosplit off when youre grouping, all in all its really a pain in the anus to even get any money as a monk, levling up.

There is a few WR bags out there that have like 4 or 6 slots at the price of almost 1 stone of weight. Most of the giant/6-10 slot bags are like 4 weight. There is a few NO DROP bags (1 from an adept in Oasis) that i couldnt get my hands on yet. Additionally the Thurgadin Monk item summons shuriken (i mean theyre nice because of the stats for range slot, for lazy monks that dont switch back their range after using a throwing weapon, but thats really all thats nice about it, and it kind of helps lazy people as stated before, but a "pro" doesnt need it). Also the droprate on the Traek bag is ridicolous...

Well, this is not supposed to be a rant about WR bags or the monk thurgadin items, so lets get back on track. Im just trying to share the frustration I have with my, as i call it, "looting disorder". The reason i told you this is because nowadays I dont have that problem anymore, as I just use my alt to loot, but back when i leveled up it was just a pain for me..

Where the problems begin though, is with gear. A big amount of loot (CoD Legs, CoD bracer come to mind) that has the class MNK on it just has ridicolous weight. I could go and search for several other items. and I could suggest removing the item tag MNK from that items right away... BUT let me explain something: For me items with 3 weight were always a compromise. I use one of those items, and thats all, the rest has to be 0.something weight. That worked on Live, it was a compromise i could live with. Especially as u could go and just buy 8 giant weight reducing bags in Sol A and never care about any loot anymore.

the current situation on my monk is as follows: I am using 1 single item with a weight over 1, and im using the only 3 WR bags that dont bring me over my weight limit just with the weight of the bag alone. I use 1 of the weight reducing bags solely for potions (yes, potions) because thats the only things that fit in there... lol) My weight with 10 food and 0 drink is at 18,7. I get 5 plat 5 gold, im over my weight limit. I pick up a quest item that doesnt fit in the WR bag, im over my weight limit. I take a wrong step to the left, im over my weight limit, i look at the wrong mob im over the weight limit. .. as it is right now im happy Mod Rods dont have weight, or they would get me over my weight limit as well. Its impossible for me to carry more than 3 resist items in my bags. I can't take alternate weapon setups with me. I leave half of my clickies in the bank. Its ridicolous. I could rant on for another 3 pages but i guess you get my point

My suggestions are as follows:

1. raise the weight limit at 65 to 25, and adjust the formula accordingly
2. add a weight reducing AA, or alter one of the existing ones to have a weigh reducing effect on monk equipment
3. add more WR bags to the game or overthink some of the ones already out there with poor monks in mind


I know thats not a whole lot of suggestions, but this is a roll call to all monks out there, maybe you got another suggestion/idea.

Maybe I am wrong and just whining. But if your answer is something like that, please at least include an explanation of WHY :dance:

Thanks for your time.
Your overweight and perma FD failing Monk
Iance

 

[Mythryn]

SK/Necro FD is not instant, or instant recast. Having played both an SK and a Monk pretty extensively I can tell you that Monk FD is 10023803840384 times better.

As for FD being improved, an item designer could always throw on +Feign Death skill onto an item.

 

[Monance]

I do know the spell is not instant cast and instant recast.

for the instant cast part: this is solely a matter of timing, and only matters on casters. Even with my instant Monk FD getting the FD done right before the caster starts his cast is a pure luck scenario, maybe if i had a ping of 0 it would matter. But as it is right now it doesnt make a difference. And Yes I have played a SK before..

For the recast: it IS indeed shorter than a monk with maxed Rapid Feign.

SK/Necro FD is not instant, or instant recast. Having played both an SK and a Monk pretty extensively I can tell you that Monk FD is 10023803840384 times better.

Have you ever played a Monk in raiding situation where a failed FD is a certain death unless you didnt lose your stamina on the last failed FD?

edit: How is it 10023803840384 times better? You at least get to minimize your fizzle rate (which is the only way a SK/Necro FD can "fail")

 

[Monance]

sorry for double posting i just didnt feel like editing my old post again, because things tend to get lost on the way when youre talking about 2 different things at once:

As for FD being improved, an item designer could always throw on +Feign Death skill onto an item.

This would be a good idea for the monk MQ gem. But it has been changed from useless Flying Kick to mediocre useful Block Mod a few weeks ago so I really dont know if they will change that again

 

[Drotic]

I don't have some of the problems Iance has with weight but only cause I ALWAYS 2 box. It is still however pain in the ass that even the gate neclases out of WR bag put me over my weight limit... I cant carry clickies and alternate gear set.

Regarding FD ... Personally I think rapid feign does not do its duty. Its reuse time is still too long to make it even remotely possible for me to survive failed FD on raid pull or even pull in moderately hard xp zone. That is considering this AA was suppose to be helping with this. If not I am not even sure what it is for.

Also I think he selection of monk weapons should be looked at. Ton of entry level raid drops make monk dps worse instead of better...

loot from skywatchers, Sunbane, another weapon from NToV ... \ I haven't been able to upgrade my dps for forever it seems.

 

[Noktar]

Maybe +Feign Death skill is something that could find its way on Thaz armor?

 

[Mythryn]

Have you ever played a Monk in raiding situation where a failed FD is a certain death unless you didnt lose your stamina on the last failed FD?

edit: How is it 10023803840384 times better? You at least get to minimize your fizzle rate (which is the only way a SK/Necro FD can "fail")

Yes, I've played a monk in raid situations, and I've outpulled lesser skilled monks on my SK in the hardest raid situations currently in the game.

As for why monk FD is better, it's simple: it's instant. You don't have to worry about a mob casting a spell while your FD is being cast, or worry about a mob warping through a wall and demolishing you before your FD gets off. Unless of course your FD fails, and I'm not trying to argue that monk FD doesn't fail too much, it does, but spell FD as a whole is much worse.

 

[Nwaij]

I know of at least 3 giant sized 10Slot 100% WR Bags (Santas Burlap, the one from Whisperling, Traekoths), 1 8Slot 100% WR Bag (Lazuli), and 1 8(?)Slot 80% WR bag. There is also some WR Bag dropping in CMal1. I'm not a Monk & stuff, but I really think there are enough WR Bags out there.

 

[Monance]

/sarcasm on

so im not skilled enough? :dance: Well let me assure you: i am skilled enough

/sarcasm off


9 out of 10 times i die on raids is because of FD fail, or mob AEs hitting me before Feign death is up again, after the mob has been tagged. Im sure you've experienced the same thing on your shadowknight. With the difference that your recast is faster than monk FD. And when you see a fizzle its totally up to you and your reactions to feign again in time, because after fizzle, your FD is INSTANT recast. All a monk can do is wait with the mobs pounding on him, or 2-3 mobs having time to start casting in the time hes waiting for his FD to refresh

the only time where the casting time on FD would theoretically matter is on casters. In reality, I gotta say that in a zone with 18 people on raid, or even 36 when doing Prison, a "instant FD" to counter casting mobs is just worthless. And im talking about multiple caster pulls. If im pulling 1 caster and cant time my FD i have no rights to complain about anything.

that being said, im not tryin to get Necro or SK FD nerfed. Thank god this is not Live, and FD pulling has yet again a place in this wonderful game.

the only good thing i see about monk FD is that u can go pull with DF on you (which totally removes the chance to use ur invul stance because youre on 5-10 stamina) - so is it really such a good thing? Most of the times thats when FD fails anyway hehe...

I know of at least 3 giant sized 10Slot 100% WR Bags (Santas Burlap, the one from Whisperling, Traekoths), 1 8Slot 100% WR Bag (Lazuli), and 1 8(?)Slot 80% WR bag. There is also some WR Bag dropping in CMal1. I'm not a Monk & stuff, but I really think there are enough WR Bags out there.

Adepts have a 12 people maximum engage , and last i checked Traek wasnt very easy so im out of that as a 65 monk (Traek is lvl 57 max engage). You are welcome to talk to Sythar about this issue, im sure he can tell u about his numerous attempts at getting that bag, so mentioning that was maybe not the right thing. I gave up on the Traek bag shortly after he was toned down. But i can tell you hes still not an easy one to kill, and the bag is damn rare (has it ever dropped yet?)

I agree theres alot of no drop 100 % weight reducing bags out there, but when youre on a 19 stones weight limit, the weight of the bag matters as well. Also, the weight limit on levels under 65 is even lower, and i strongly doubt you could get a shot on those bags u mentioned below level 60.

its a general problem troughout the levels, a high level monk has the smallest problem with the weight limit, as he has the highest one.

 

[Ponden]

Monks can FD while stunned. No other class can do this.

 

[Mythryn]

the only time where the casting time on FD would theoretically matter is on casters. In reality, I gotta say that in a zone with 18 people on raid, or even 36 when doing Prison, a "instant FD" to counter casting mobs is just worthless. And im talking about multiple caster pulls. If im pulling 1 caster and cant time my FD i have no rights to complain about anything.

that being said, im not tryin to get Necro or SK FD nerfed. Thank god this is not Live, and FD pulling has yet again a place in this wonderful game.

the only good thing i see about monk FD is that u can go pull with DF on you (which totally removes the chance to use ur invul stance because youre on 5-10 stamina) - so is it really such a good thing? Most of the times thats when FD fails anyway hehe...

I've bolded the ridiculous part for you. Have you tried splitting 3-4 mobs that can quad over 1500 on well over 2000 AC? Now take that and put it in a confined space and throw in some sweet under-the-world warping, the kind where you'll lose sight of a mob and he'll magically show up right in your face. Guess what matters then. How fast you can Feign Death.

 

[Monance]

Monks can FD while stunned. No other class can do this.

yep thats true. but why would you get stunned? theres 2 possible ways:

a.) mobs hitting on you.
b.) mob casting a stun spell on you (have yet to see this happen on initial agro, unless its a stun proc >proceed to a.)

Being in melee range doesnt happen out of the blue. Its a matter of skill to avoid that. When im pulling in a raid zone, and a mob gets into melee range, its because i was sleeping. So FD working while stunned may help people who are still working on their pulling skills, or getting suprised by roamers. But me personally, I cant even recall getting stunned on a raid pull by a melee hit, thats how long ago that happened the last time.

You got a point with the stun though, i didnt think about that before.

If you are getting stunned while casting FD, you let the mobs get too close before casting.

As you can see, experience helps a lot with pulling, and its a lot of trial and error involved to learn a new zone. But when i know everything i need to know about pulling in a zone, it all boils down to FD failing and the long refresh time after a fail.

Guess what matters then. How fast you can Feign Death.

Wrong. Thats all problems a monk has as well. Ive pulled with 5-10 % PL before and know how it is. I also see warping happens. There is nothing i can do about flaws in the game when the connection isnt perfect. But thats exactly what im saying about caster pulling. No way you can time a monk FD between mobs casting when you have PL. Its not like SKs and necros are the only classes who have problems with mobs warping. You will have to agree with me it all boils down to luck. I cant see why youre so bitter, and full of hate for the monk class. When a bunch of mobs warp on me no way i can FD if they have the damage output u mentioned.

 

[Mythryn]

Wrong. Thats all problems a monk has as well. Ive pulled with 5-10 % PL before and know how it is. I also see warping happens. There is nothing i can do about flaws in the game when the connection isnt perfect. But thats exactly what im saying about caster pulling. No way you can time a monk FD between mobs casting when you have PL. Its not like SKs and necros are the only classes who have problems with mobs warping. You will have to agree with me it all boils down to luck. I cant see why youre so bitter, and full of hate for the monk class. When a bunch of mobs warp on me no way i can FD if they have the damage output u mentioned.

But monks CAN FD through that. I've done it, I've watched others do it. And I'm not saying monks don't have problems when a bad connection is involved, or faulty game mechanics, but they are much better prepared to deal with them, because of that instant FD.

 

[Eldorath]

I don't think the SK versus Monk splitting is unbalanced right now. SKs are terrible at splitting anything that casts or is coming through the wall (if they have a small amount of space to split). Monks can always split faster than SKs if they don't get failed FDs and die. And as you mentioned monks can pull while FD, so if you only have an SK to pull an non optimal area there will be way more downtime when the SK dies.

I think FD does need some sort of help though. Monks have 2 roles in a raid, splitting (feign death), and DPS. Their specialty function is the splitting. The only way to improve your feign death skill is through the single AA, which is pretty sad (the AA is great, the single way to improve your classes special ability is not). Rangers get tons of +archery mods and AA's, rogues get +backstab mods and AA's. Once a monk at the lowest tier of raiding bangs out those AA's then they are done improving their special ability for the rest of their raiding career. Basically, I think some of the above suggestions would be really good

The WR bag thing is a little annoying too, the santa bag is only available once a year afaik, and the other 100% WR bags aren't exactly falling out of the sky. I guess the Lazuli one is probably the easiest to obtain at level 65.

 

[Monance]

Mobs take the same time to get from point a to point b, regardless of warping. So youre standing there like. "wtf wheres the mob" and in the next second they're on top of you? They dont take longer to get to you, they take the same time everytime, regardless of warping. Do you disagree? You are facing a problem with pathing and PL. dont make it a problem with monks having superior FD because thats not the case.

You FD whenever you want. If you FD too late, because of warping, its still YOU who FDed too late, warping didnt make you FD later. FD in time, and repeat until u got sight on the mobs.


However it has nothing to do with skills to time a instant FD when mobs start casting 0,5 sec later than u FD because its laggy. On top of that, theres a delay called "reaction" which makes it physically impossible to "time a FD" even if its instant, if you are facing 2 or more spellcasters. Thats not skill, and im not a prophet who can see the future of the next pull. So actually you can compare it to SK and Necro FD, which has a casting time. In the end its luck. Sometimes you have it, sometimes you dont. Sometimes they perma cast and there is no way u can FD at the right time, because there is no such thing as a right time.

This is not a reason to NOT make monk FD more powerful/reliable. im talking about situations that should be trivial but end up in a death with a monk not being able to do anything, and this is TOTALLY independant of lag, time of day, whos won the last election, etc.

Bottom line is: monks cant tank mirrors, monks cant stack 7 dots on a mob, and monks dont have a pet (yeah yeah im not talking about SK pet, so pls..). Monks cant res (wait i can res with a 0.5 weight urn that gets me over the weight limit :haw and there is absolutely NO reason for monks to get this skills, none at all.

but a monk should at least be able to do the 1 thing hes made for, PULLING, decently. And when there is a total of 1 AA on the table to help with FD, whiile Necros and SKs get more than 1 AA to passively and actively help with FD, along with skillmods on spell casting, i see absolutely no reason to veto against a FD upgrade for monks, or considering one of my other ideas. HELL. Monk FD isnt even connected to ANY specialisation stat...

Im sorry if im sounding bitter but thats what happens when you come here with a legitimate suggestion and get nothing but: "NOOB, you dont deserve this" from some people... I want to apologize to all people who fed this thread with constructive criticism, and hope that there will be more supporters of this cause as this thread continues

there is alot of space for improvement for SKs pulling, also for the situations Eldorath described. Mobs coming thru a wall? I can learn to FD at the right time after doing it a few times. FDing versus spellcasters is always a matter of luck, no matter what class you are. And I agree about the point with pulling with DF, but i also pointed out before that u then pull with no stamina to cope with ur failed FDs. That can and will generate additional downtime as well.

Have a nice day
Lance

edit: typo

 

[Temellin]

And when you see a fizzle its totally up to you and your reactions to feign again in time, because after fizzle, your FD is INSTANT recast.

Since you seem to be pretty wrong about the whole Necromancer/Shadow Knight FD thing here I thought I would explain it to you. At level 60 they get Death peace, which has a 1 second cast time, and a 4 second recast time (This is quite an upgrade to the old 15 second recast time on our last FD spell with a 1.5 second cast time) both of these spells are pretty crappy compared to the Monk FD skill that can get way better way earlier in the game. Also, since you seem to be centering this all on pulling I don't really know why you brought up Necromancers in the first place, we don't usually pull with our FD and I think it safe to say that 85% of the time we are FDing to lose aggro or we are FDing out of the range of some AoE so we can rez after a wipe. You get an INSTANT FD, why the heck are you complaining? Because SK's can take hits better when they pull and god forbid they tank like a plate class? Because Necromancers are out DPSing you? because after reading...

Bottom line is: monks cant tank mirrors, monks cant stack 7 dots on a mob, and monks dont have a pet (yeah yeah im not talking about SK pet, so pls..). Monks cant res (wait i can res with a 0.5 weight urn that gets me over the weight limit ) and there is absolutely NO reason for monks to get this skills, none at all.

but a monk should at least be able to do the 1 thing hes made for, PULLING, decently. And when there is a total of 1 AA on the table to help with FD, whiile Necros and SKs get more than 1 AA to passively and actively help with FD, along with skillmods on spell casting, i see absolutely no reason to veto against a FD upgrade for monks, or considering one of my other ideas. HELL. Monk FD isnt even connected to ANY specialisation stat...

It sure sounds that way. I would be open to the idea of increasing monk FD skill if it was given a longer cast time/ recast time, but as is I don't see it crippling raids and making them wipe every pull, or making raid zones totally unpullable, so I can't really see a valid reason for changing it based off of what you posted.

 

[Eldorath]

It sure sounds that way. I would be open to the idea of increasing monk FD skill if it was given a longer cast time/ recast time, but as is I don't see it crippling raids and making them wipe every pull, or making raid zones totally unpullable, so I can't really see a valid reason for changing it based off of what you posted.

I think it has more to do with having no control over dying and costing the raid 3-5 minutes multiple times every raid. Lets face it, there are two reasons to bring a monk on a raid

1) Splitting stuff before the boss
2) Increased chance at a 3rd loot

It sucks when your purpose is (1) but you have no way at actually improving your ability at doing (1). Especially when other classes gets tons of AAs and mods that help them do their primary jobs better.

Every other melee "dps" class does more total DPS than monks. They are out damaged by rangers, rogues, and beastlords. A monk's job is to split and there pretty much nothing other than the AA which they can strive to obtain to help them with their primary job.

 

[Monance]

@ tem
so when you fizzle on FD, you need to wait 4 seconds to cast it again? Sorry i didnt know that. Must be the only spell that works that way.

also, we use Necromancers to pull quite often, especially when i just died to a failed FD.. On top of that, Necros get an ADDITIONAL AA FD.

And please reread the very quote you snipped out. I stated I DONT want to tank as good as a SK, and i dont want to throw dots as a Necro, and i dont want to have a pet that outdpses my monk almost, especially as i have to focus on defense aas for the first 150aas . In return i want to be able to decently pull, and NO, a instant FD with skill level of a 39 and 1 crappy AA that decreased the time between my last and my next failed FD is NOT enough for me

edit:

I would be open to the idea of increasing monk FD skill if it was given a longer cast time/ recast time, but as is I don't see it crippling raids and making them wipe every pull, or making raid zones totally unpullable

I guess thats it for my suggestion then. Please move to the monk weight topic then, as obviously as long as we are not wiping our raid EVERY PULL and raid zones are not UNPULLABLE, i guess FD wont get a change,...

 

[Mythryn]

a big ol' wall of text

Just so you know, mobs are slowed down via geometry, so a mob warping underneath the world is going to get to you faster than a mob trying to pass through the 3 walls you just set it up to hit.

And I never said you were a noob, or you didn't deserve it, I openly said monks need some sort of increase to FD. While I don't think your FD needs a cast time, or a longer recast time like temellin said, I would gladly trade you my 'failproof super cast' FD for monk FD.

And then you go on to bring up class utility and balance. Sure, you can't tank the mirror golem that I can tank, but I bet you top dollar that Zhak could tank the left mirror golem. Oh no, you don't get dots, but you can hit high 400s in the dps charts? I weep for you. Uh oh, no pets for poor monks. Oh what about that sweet instant purify skill. Worthless right?

I'm going to bathe in the tears of monks tonight.

 

[Nwaij]

So the weight topic again: There are lots of WR bags out there. Granted, they don't fall from the sky and arent given out for free. But on the other hand, what is given out for free here?