LIVE TEST - Mana regen/game fun changes
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Taedirk said:
1) If your group is engaged, you still cannot meditate. Yes, if you are FAR from your group and behind a LOS-wall, then you can meditate... but err, how many dungeons are you really sitting miles behind your group?
2) Let me give you a tip, for the fastest possible groups, chain pulling is a necessity. For the most skilled groups, chain pulling is a necessity. Healers being LOM is not an issue because before, they could med during fights and you could chain pull easier blues to slowly gain more mana than was used.
JayelleNephilim
"Helpy Helper"
Revelation did some named tonight in PoT with the new mana regen policy (our first time hitting these named), and I have to say this is NOT a hassle for raids. It considerably decreased down time and sped up our raid productivity (IMHO). It really made us maximize the use of our mana!
I have not xp'd with this new policy in effect, but I can only assume if it works this great when raiding, it can only work as well or better when xping.
I have not xp'd with this new policy in effect, but I can only assume if it works this great when raiding, it can only work as well or better when xping.
Medding in combat should have been stomped out back when the "next tick" rule was implemented.
The gear level on this server is just getting to the point where Warriors and clerics can stay up for damn near an eternity and since this is the POSITIVE way of correcting the situation as opposed to the NEGATIVE way of complete and total rebalancing of most raid and group encounters and dragging out the nerf bats on warriors and clerics.....
The gear level on this server is just getting to the point where Warriors and clerics can stay up for damn near an eternity and since this is the POSITIVE way of correcting the situation as opposed to the NEGATIVE way of complete and total rebalancing of most raid and group encounters and dragging out the nerf bats on warriors and clerics.....
Initial just seeing this on paper I was totally against the changes. However, my guild mates and I did some xp for quite awhile today and after seeing it in practice I am more for it. There was no noticeable down time and it allow our casters to put out quite a bit more dps it seemed.
So all in all, Im liking it so far.
So all in all, Im liking it so far.
Well, i got to expirience the new system for an extended time tonight and am still pretty much on the fence about it. Here's the main problems with it...if you get trained or are on another groups hate list of something they're killing. This is just a minor inconvinience really, but could be problematic in certain situations (like when something gets trained past you, or other situations already mentioned). My biggest gripe about this is that this takes chain pulling out of the gameplay expirience. Chain pulling is really an art form, and really keeps things spiced up and interesting with a continuous flow of things coming to the group. I suppose with the new system you could do a few chain pulls and then a quick med break, but really makes it lose its flavor. Also, if your healer has a low mana pool then you can kind of throw that out the window. Was on a tmap tonight and had to med between the digs whereas normally we can jsut zip right threw it. The other big issue here is how some things become unbalanced. A point was brought up about necro lich as a preliminary example, but I'm sure there are others. One of the most obvious thing is that alot of items casters use in primary arent designed for melee-ing at all so it would kind of defeat the purpose of maknig things "fun" (Worn Pincer for example). My conclusion is that something like this could work, but not without some major reform of casters...like putting caster primaries dmg/dly in line with weapons other stats.
Just because a change is positive and allows groups faster exp'ing doesn't make it a good change suddenly. What about changes that make the game too trivial? Changes should be considered on how they affect the game at all levels--fun, difficulty, balance, etc etc.
The change allows some groups to be reckless with mana and possibly kill mobs they could not before; for example, what about the fact that some mobs have very slow health regen when "reset," yet players now have excessive mana regen in meditate? Players can now bind rush better than before.
What about the fact that that groups that were "bad groups" before because they blew their mana loads on 1 mob and did not learn how to conserve mana suddenly becoming the best groups now because of maximizing the meditate between pulls?
Chain-pulling was fun and the previous best way to exp per hour--it required skill of all 6 characters in the group. Now, the best way to exp is to tackle high level mobs, blow your mana to kill it as soon as possible then regenerate to near full mana in a minute or two and pull another. Is this more "fun?" We essentially lose the skill of conserving mana and anytime we lessen the effect skill has on the game, I am against it.
About it being a hassle in raids, it's because skill is less of a factor now. Before, we could kill mobs with 12 that some guilds were using 21 for through the usage of good substitution of healing. Now, whether a heal team can outheal the DPS of a raid boss simply comes down to your heal team's overall manapool + FT + Potions.
The change allows some groups to be reckless with mana and possibly kill mobs they could not before; for example, what about the fact that some mobs have very slow health regen when "reset," yet players now have excessive mana regen in meditate? Players can now bind rush better than before.
What about the fact that that groups that were "bad groups" before because they blew their mana loads on 1 mob and did not learn how to conserve mana suddenly becoming the best groups now because of maximizing the meditate between pulls?
Chain-pulling was fun and the previous best way to exp per hour--it required skill of all 6 characters in the group. Now, the best way to exp is to tackle high level mobs, blow your mana to kill it as soon as possible then regenerate to near full mana in a minute or two and pull another. Is this more "fun?" We essentially lose the skill of conserving mana and anytime we lessen the effect skill has on the game, I am against it.
About it being a hassle in raids, it's because skill is less of a factor now. Before, we could kill mobs with 12 that some guilds were using 21 for through the usage of good substitution of healing. Now, whether a heal team can outheal the DPS of a raid boss simply comes down to your heal team's overall manapool + FT + Potions.
Another thing I'd like to know is some numbers casters are getting in terms of DPS. If it is very low - then whats the point of it. If its kind of decent, then how does that not offbalance some melee like oh I don't know bards for example (parsed myself today and was horrified by my 'dps'). Without some numbers though I won't cry about it...yet....
gtoo
THE NEMESIS
Lyte said:
If you have the same mana as you used to have going into a fight how are you going to be able to kill higher mobs? Bind zerging is stupid and doesn't work.
Killing high level mobs, with a few exceptions, will never over the long run get you more xp than constantly killing mid-DB
I don't really know what you mean by "substitution of healing", but this in no way nerfs healing on raids.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
guyvertoo said:
As your well-reasoned and clearly supported rebuttal shows.
michgan241
Dalayan Beginner
[quote="I don't really know what you mean by "substitution of healing", but this in no way nerfs healing on raids.[/quote]
ehhh i dont know about saying that it NO WAY nerfs healing on raids, i can think of times when killing warden of torment 1-2 CLR would go OOM with about 10-15% left med up and get off 1 or 2 more CH's while the larger mana pools CLR's went on with the chain. especially with a mob like that 1-2 CH's can make or break the raid. It might be a small nerf to healing on raids but its still there
ehhh i dont know about saying that it NO WAY nerfs healing on raids, i can think of times when killing warden of torment 1-2 CLR would go OOM with about 10-15% left med up and get off 1 or 2 more CH's while the larger mana pools CLR's went on with the chain. especially with a mob like that 1-2 CH's can make or break the raid. It might be a small nerf to healing on raids but its still there
guyvertoo said:
How long has it been since you've been grouping regularly with unequipped characters Gtoo
Bind zerging does work for some mobs at lower level ranges (adepts), as many adepts have low HP regen. I'm not talking about 65 raiding game when I make that comment.
No offense captain, but the healing changes don't affect the large manapool characters as much as the lower ones. For you and Forsaken, most fights end with healers and Clerics never reaching oom once. Therefore, the changes do not affect you.
For us with fewer characters and less equipment, substitution of healing means we rotate people in and out of the CH chain, giving them time to med longer periods without constantly being in the CH chain until they are oom. We do the same with padders, because being able to take turns padding and having others med fully without having to stand up to pad = optimal efficiency. We can essentially outperform other healing teams because of this efficiency.
Or what about fights like Arbiter or Summoner where in-combat regen allowed us using 2 geared + 4 undergeared characters to beat both events? We efficiently used substitutions there to beat an event few others have, and with 4 characters with crap gear. Please don't say that we can't kill higher mobs or accomplish more because our manapools overall are "the same." This efficiency we used capitalizes on in-combat regen and rewards SKILL with benefits.
Sitting there CH'ing or padding until oom? Not much skill required. Any monkey can do that, and that is what healers will do on raids now.
You can no longer "constantly" kill DB anymore because you can no longer chain pull. Meditating is halted as soon as a member of your group engages and you are in the mob's range. You can chain-pull DBs until you are oom, then med to full, but this is now not that much better than unleashing MASSIVE DPS on a one mob after another, then medding to full in-between the pulls. Try it out and compare. Before patch, chain-pulling was by far the best exp. Now, they are about the same.
(by higher level mobs I meant higher level DBs vs lower level DBs since at 65 it's all DB)
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
First off,
:brow: Summoner has been beaten into the dirt. Sure, it's a tough event for all but the best geared players, but nowhere near as tough and exclusive it was a year or so ago.
Secondly, have you sat down and meditated yet? It really doesn't sound like it, because you gain your mana back in about 2 minutes. Chain pulls can, and will, still happen. You can still swap people out of padding/CH chains if you need too. Sure, you can't pad then med in the same fight, big deal, get more mana. (Side note: This really sucks for some of the IP dragon fights, where chains go OOM at around ~50%, but it's doable)
Lyte said:
:brow: Summoner has been beaten into the dirt. Sure, it's a tough event for all but the best geared players, but nowhere near as tough and exclusive it was a year or so ago.
Secondly, have you sat down and meditated yet? It really doesn't sound like it, because you gain your mana back in about 2 minutes. Chain pulls can, and will, still happen. You can still swap people out of padding/CH chains if you need too. Sure, you can't pad then med in the same fight, big deal, get more mana. (Side note: This really sucks for some of the IP dragon fights, where chains go OOM at around ~50%, but it's doable)
Mythryn said:
Maybe so, but many people outside of Forsaken haven't.
Even more so, not many people have with the gear we use or the time we have played (4 months). None of our healers breached 4k mana for example and were around 3900.
Uh, the definition of chain pulls means we are pulling mobs before the group finishes killing the last mob of the previous pull... so how are chain pulls still happening? They can happen in one cycle from FM to oom, then you med to full, and do it again; I already said this was possible. However, this is about the same exp as unloading massive DPS on a higher level DB, then medding to full, the unloading massive DPS on a higher level DB. The latter strategy requires less skill, yet gives the same benefits as the more challenging chain-pulling strategy. This is why I was pointing it out. Before the patch, chain pulling required more skill but gave more exp. After patch, chain pulling requires more skill but gives a tiny bit better exp.
You can't swap people out of padding/CH chains to med, like you said. Big deal, get more mana? How is that a response? Before patch, we could use skill to kill mobs with less people and worse gear. Now, with skill we are pretty much like any other heal team since all you can do is heal until you are oom then you are done for the fight. An element of skill has simply been taken out of the game. You make it sound like it's good that the game should be focused 100% on what your HP/AC, MANA is, rather than have some influence from skills.
Should I summarize the skill-arguments being made?
For Heal-Teams in Raids..
Before Patch, Skills Required:
- maximizing HP healed per mana
- maximizing mana regeneration by rotating active healers
After Patch, Skills Required:
- maximizing HP healed per mana
- ??? using melee on AE bosses without wasting mana or dying??
Let's make it a game where if you can't beat a mob, it's solely because you don't have the gear requirements for the encounter. (sarcasm)
Im against, mainly because Im an enchanter and it makes me slighty less usefull T.T.
Also what will this do to bards swarm kiting? (assuming they still can, I dont have much
info on bards in SOD yet) This kind of makes me want to create a sorc or magician so I
can just spam DD spells on everything. Plus It also makes it that much similar to WoW,
which Im not very excited about because I still like EQ over WoW anyday, so any changes
similar to WoW doesnt make me too excited..
Also what will this do to bards swarm kiting? (assuming they still can, I dont have much
info on bards in SOD yet) This kind of makes me want to create a sorc or magician so I
can just spam DD spells on everything. Plus It also makes it that much similar to WoW,
which Im not very excited about because I still like EQ over WoW anyday, so any changes
similar to WoW doesnt make me too excited..
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