Instruments

[Andaara]

Hmm yes I see. Didn't know exactly how much stuff was out there with instrument mods. I have not had much experience with it as the vast majority of the equipment listed on the Wiki cannot be obtained outside Raiding. It seems what I mentioned would be a large undertaking.

I realize that its probably to help offset the fact that Bards had to give up both weapon slots in order to hold an instrument, but it never really made sense to me that a non-instrument item would have an instrument modifier attached to it (except of course in the case of questable class specific items).

Regardless, this would be a most welcome change for those of us who are not raiders, and will likely never see any of the high end raid loot items with mods. I would welcome being able to swap an instrument in place of an offhand weapon if it will increase my song power.

 

[Zaela]

Finding myself kind of slow getting started on any of this... but here's a random thing I'm thinking about in the meantime:

Relic: Hymn of the Savior -> Relic: Heartstrings (better name pending)
Stringed
Single target, Magic -25
Reverse DS (target damages self with attacks): 10(?) - always scales
Healing DS (players healed on attack): 5 - only scales with true stringed instruments
Standard detrimental song pulsing mechanics, no (or little?) mana cost.

At the same time I'm thinking of expanding Healing DS effect to include casters somewhat. It didn't get off to a good start with that one cleric spell. Anyway, theoretical changes:
*Double the base amount of the Healing DS is triggered once for every tick of every DoT on the target, so e.g. if the base is 10 and you have 4 DoTs running on the target you get healed for 80 every tick, as long as the Healing DS effect is running.
*Direct Damage spells heal the caster for 5 times the base amount of the Healing DS per second of base casting time on the spell being used. For example, if the base Healing DS amount is 10 and a Wizard casts Moon Comet, they get (5.75 * 5 * 10) = 287[.5] healing when it lands. Maybe 10 times would be a better amount than 5 times, idk.

Healing DS effects would still benefit melees more, certainly, and they'd still be mostly meaningless to healers and enchanters, but would make the effect a little more useful, at least.

 

[Silosobi]

Very cool ideas.

HP goes meele dps>healer>caster, so the reverse DS didnt seem to do a whole lot in most AE situations, since healers would need to gheal for themselves before the meele dps anyway. With casters benefitting, I could see these spells getting more use, and actually helping to stretch out the time inbtween group heals.

 

[sheer1]

I do like that idea, but i feel like the more generic debuffs/buffs based off which instrument is being used should be the initial focus for this kind of change.

Even if a lot of neat little things like that are added, if the raid overall isn't getting a noticeable benefit, the whole thing will just fade away.
Making the use of an instrument during a raid should be something that can offset the benefit of a duel wielding bard. Right now using an instrument provides a higher mod of one type, but otherwise there is not any benefit, and just one higher mod doesn't make any real difference. The first step can just be adding that benefit, and other tweaks to specific songs can be added where needed.


Maybe we can look at it like certain instrument types bring certain types of buffs to the raid. Im looking at these types of effects below as additional bonus's to actually wearing that instrument type, when playing a song of that type. Changing some songs themselves to utilize instrument vs no instrument can sort of spring off of these.

beneficial songs:
String - Defensive - healing, runes, AC, healing DS
Brass - Offensive = attack and spell power, Reverse DS, AC Debuffs
Singing - Utility = stat and resist buffs, vex?, damage mitigation (melee and spell)

Detrimental songs:
Wind - Offensive/Utility = vex, mana drain, or a very short duration damage vulnerability along with the bellow/jolt
Percussion - Defensive/Utility = as the chant continuously ticks on a mob a healing or reverse ds will increase in power.


I think starting from some sort of layout is good, and sort of centralizing roles to an instrument type would make switching instrument during a fight a thing that could be fun to do. Having roles like this would make stacking bards a ton easier since they could compliment each other's instrument usage. These benefits don't need to be huge, trying to balance them in all types of content, 6man/12man/18man, would be a major headache probably, but in a raid setting the overall benefits would outweigh the (meager) dps loss of the bard.

Hopefully that all makes sense; i really like this idea and want to see it in action

edit: some beneficial songs would definitely need their instrument type change to fit in with that schema above, i don't know if that is a hard thing to do or not. if so that would probably just not work out right.

 

[Laeolan]

I think these changes sound amazing. I have always carried around a bag full of instruments, and except in rare situations, I never use them at all. In addition to losing your melee dps while the instrument is held, you lose all melee for 12 seconds or so after your weapons are re-equipped. That is just too much of a tradeoff in most cases. Changing instruments to one handed would help offset that. The change to the Instrument Mastery AA also sounds great! This would help balance out the mez spells if using a flute for Dreams of Marlow. It would add a big reason to equip an instrument for resistant bosses, and generally just make that AA a lot better. These two changes alone would probably make many bards use their instruments a lot more!

Some of the ideas later in the thread are also exciting, although probably harder to implement. Probably my favorite idea was the standardized procs on instruments. The only issue I see with this is that on raids and in groups I mostly only use Singing, Wind, Percussion, and sometimes Stringed. So that is realistically only two instrument procs available in most situations. But if you also added more songs, or as Reehs suggested, change around the instrument type on existing songs this might work out better. However, that would be a pretty huge change to songs overall.

I also liked the idea of changing a song based on instrument type being wielded. That could have a lot of applications. Murk song, as pointed out would be a lot better with changing resist types. Another song for this type of treatment might be Occlusion of Sound. It could debufff a different single resist based on instrument type, and work as it does not with no instrument. This is a good song at lower levels, but once you get Relic Chant you cannot really make use of it anymore. The only time I ever use that song now is when Relic Chant won't land.

Would it be possible to add a true instrument for the Singing skill? Many important songs are of the Singing type and there are of course no "microphones" in the game. I am not sure what kind of fantasy answer there is but maybe some kind of clockwork megaphone! I have always thought Wand of the Chosen looks like a pretty decent microphone. Or perhaps some kind of tuning fork, to make sure you stay on pitch. Maybe to balance how many songs are singing it could be a primary slot item, while other instruments remain secondary.

The changes you suggested for Hymn of the Savior sound good. The way you described it sounds as if DoT heals would be a bit weak compared to DD heals. I know necros can stack up a lot of dps with their DoT damage. Would it be possible for the heal to scale based on DoT damage? So that four powerful DoTs would heal more than four weak ones? Also my only concern would be that this takes away the only way bards can cure poison and disease. Would it be possible to replace the cure components to Psalm of Vitality and Psalm of Purity? They were only one counter each, but it would be nice to retain the ability to cure diseases and poisons in some way.

Thank you for considering these changes, it all sounds quite exciting!

 

[Rorne]

I think it's important to remember that bards are already a great class and to approach suggestions from that perspective. The point is to make them more interesting not to make them more powerful. Also I really like the Heartstrings idea if only because there is a definite lack of good detrimental options beyond relic chant that are anything more than afterthoughts or redundant.

 

[sheer1]

Yea I can understand that we don't want this change to overpower bards or make other classes obsolete. At the same time though, if this weapon+instrument alternative is suppose to actually be an attractive option, it does need some extra unique and useful benefits. For my current setup at least, losing one weapon is a pretty big deal. The heartstring's song is a cool idea, but I just don't see it making up any ground with the lack of a second weapon. Maybe im focusing too much on the instrument procs or additional song utility when an instrument is equipped idea. That just seems like a good way to add an extra bonus when using an instrument that is not currently present. This also avoids changing any specific songs in the short term (other than runic 2!!)

edit: in my head I'm imagining most bards would not go the weapon+instrument option outside of raids. the instrument stuff would just be viable in a raid since bards would be doing low damage, and making up for it by allowing the raid as a whole to do more damage or have more mana or whatever. It wouldn't scale down well to smaller group type things. This seems like an ok compromise since it wouldn't give bards any more power in smaller groups, a setting in which they are already pretty popular.

 

[Zaela]

I officially don't know what is being talked about in this thread any more.

 

[Andaara]

I still love this idea for those of us who play casually. I would gladly give up an off-hand weapon to be able to equip an instrument, while retaining the use of my primary weapon. I believe it makes the class both more attractive to groups and more fun to play, as we no longer face the option of either having our song potency diminished in order to melee, or stand aside and watch. If the change is made and it proves too powerful in the Raid game, then perhaps the Raid songs can be addressed separately.

Also along Sheer1's idea of realigning some songs, something else to consider in making instrument use more attractive would be to take another look at the Singing skill, and move some of those songs into other instrument skills. I looked through all the Wiki songs and recorded what skills have what song types and there are alot of overlaps. For example some things Singing shares in common with other skills already:

HP/Mana Regen (Strings)
Enthrall (Winds)
Spell Focus (Brass)
Haste (Percussion)
Slow/Snare (Strings)
AC Buffs (Percussion)
Stat Buffs (Strings)
Resist Buffs (Percussion)

Perhaps if these types of songs were changed to group with the instruments they already share in common, that would help promote usage. We already get a reduced benefit when singing for any non-singing song. If Enthrall exists in Winds for example, why give it a full effect song in Singing also? If you can equip a Flute and a primary weapon, why not move a song like Lullaby Of Shadows from Singing to Winds?

As an aside, if this change is made, I would love to eventually see some more instrument quests for XPable instruments like the Starfall Lute. I think adding an XPable instrument of each type would make this change even more attractive.

 

[Laeolan]

We already have Singing for a lower potency version of any non-Singing skill song.

We already get a reduced benefit when singing for any non-singing song. If Enthrall exists in Winds for example, why give it a full effect song in Singing also? If you can equip a Flute and a primary weapon, why not move a song like Lullaby Of Shadows from Singing to Winds?

This is not how the Singing skill works. I can understand how you might think that you are "singing" all of your songs when you are not using an instrument, but this is not the case. Each song uses the coresponding skill type to determine potency. Wind songs use the wind skill. Brass uses brass. Singing and only singing type songs use your singing skill. Even without a modifier you have your base skill and AAs. In addition, all the mez songs are already 'full effect' without a flute. You get a slightly quicker cast time with the AA, that is it.

I officially don't know what is being talked about in this thread any more.

I might have gotten carried away in my earlier post, sorry. The ideas getting thrown around were interesting and I wanted to respond. Just forget all that and let me say that I would love single handed instruments and a new Instrument Mastery AA. These are great ideas, Zaela. Please make it happen!

 

[Andaara]

This is not how the Singing skill works. I can understand how you might think that you are "singing" all of your songs when you are not using an instrument, but this is not the case.

Oh wow. Well thank you for explaining that. Not sure where I got that idea but I've been wrong for a long time...

 

[Zapple]

Relic: Hymn of the Savior -> Relic: Heartstrings (better name pending)
.

If you do this would it be possible to make a replacement song (maybe a rare, dropped level 65 like the recent beastlord spells that got added) for Hymn of the Savior with at least the disease/poison counter removal still intact? For some things I can remember doing on-tier, this song pretty much made or broke the raid, like the sunderdrake trash in Outer Prison. The song is pretty useful, situationally. It'd be a shame to not have that kind of utility from bards anymore.

 

[Rorne]

I hope this idea has not been shelved because I have a bank bag of instruments I will take ANY reason to equip them.

 

[Arael]

Agreed, Let's try making all instruments offhand equippable with a weapon in main. it should be a simple fix which ups bard versatility a bit.


(save the relic/runic changes for their own appropriate thread)

 

[Zaela]

Yeah, I guess at least getting the main idea in there is a good place to start, can figure out any attendant changes later...

My only question about doing that is if I should lower the mods on the instruments at the same time. It's hard to say how a weapon and a good flute will compare to two weapons, for example. But at the same time I'm inclined to lower the mods on instruments by say 10% just to be safe; will keep them 0.3 or so ahead of existing mods on armor on average I think.

 

[Zaela]

Then again, those could always be adjusted later if it seems necessary.

 

[Arael]

i wouldn't adjust them... the way i see it, you're giving up your offhand dps to get a better-than worn instrument mod, temporarily.

nerfing all instruments that way would make me less inclined to want to swap one in at all (or carry them around in my bags). For instance, yclist flute -10% would be 2.7, so not even worth the effort to switch with galeforce's 2.6.

 

[Silosobi]

I think in general the mods are fine as is.

I guess it really depends on what songs are changed.

Without changing songs, the only issue I could see currently is the 65 bellow being a bit strong, but even that is a "max burn blow all your mana" thing, and the bard cant sustain it long, so allowing them some meele dps while they do that might not even be OP.

 

[Laeolan]

Yeah, I guess at least getting the main idea in there is a good place to start, can figure out any attendant changes later...

My only question about doing that is if I should lower the mods on the instruments at the same time. It's hard to say how a weapon and a good flute will compare to two weapons, for example. But at the same time I'm inclined to lower the mods on instruments by say 10% just to be safe; will keep them 0.3 or so ahead of existing mods on armor on average I think.

Thank you Zaela! This is a really exciting change and I am happy you decided to go ahead with part of it. I think the mods are fine as they are. Considering the average bard mana pool, lack of mana conservation and the slow meditate rate I don't think there will an issue. You are still losing all your offhand melee and procs for some extra DoT or DD damage. There is also a 12 second lock out on all melee whenever you swap the instrument in or out. So unless you are planning to remove that, you would still be best off swapping between fights.

Would include attendant changes:
*Instrument Mastery AA would probably change from an instrument-only cast time reduction to an instrument-only improved resist adjust, say -10/-25/-50 for songs matching your equipped instrument's type. (Faster song casting wouldn't fit as well with non-dedicated instruments, at least in my opinion. Plus it was always a bit hacky.)
*Rebalancing of the few true instruments with stats

I guess you are shelving that change for now? I was really looking forward to it. Whenever you take a look at further changes, please consider this one. The AA as it stands is not great, mostly only useful for kiting. In theory it should be good when mezzing, but in practice it has seemed pretty unreliable. I would much rather have the resist adjust, personally.

 

[Latten]

Galeforce should in general have a lower wind mod make it 2.5 and the bard class wrist to 2.6 that would make more sense. Even at 2.5 its really good if you would compere the tier and difficulty to similar tier / reward ( phalanx , helm of singing strikes that have 2.4 ).