Input on new Druid heals
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Salarus
Dalayan Master
I was kinda thinking that taking away ancinet hot, giving druids their old ancient heal back, and keeping the relic as a hot would be nice.
I am saying this from the perspective of an aggrivated cleric who raids with 2 druids and now has a hot which is for all intents and purposes, almost useless.
I am saying this from the perspective of an aggrivated cleric who raids with 2 druids and now has a hot which is for all intents and purposes, almost useless.
narmarratuk
Dalayan Adventurer
I like this Idea of druids healing with HoTs, let me tell you why and I'm familiar with this, this is how druids in EQ2(healers) heal. I have an eq2 druid Nahra, same as SoD, In EQ2 she was the best healer in the server I played her(back 3 years ago). In EQ2 I was able to stack 5 different Hots(which I was casting back to back and was alot of fun), not just 2 like in here, also HoTs in EQ2 for druids cost less mana in here my druid in falling short on that(when I try to cast them back to back my mana goes down fast using RHoT and AHot). Another issue is that in EQ2 you had heal crit+items, I think my druid was at 86% heal crit chance and every time a HoT heal had a chance to crit, that and her epic2 which returned mana to her every heal crit she was never OOM(I tought that was ridiculous overpowering, since her mana never went lower than 96% at raids). However a few things:
-Heal crit+items(cap at 10% like critical strikes, that and AAs should help some)
-less mana consuption for the HoTs
-add 2 more lesser HoTs a druid can stack back to back but without that mana consumption that kills.
It is fun when you are casting heals back to back(I extreamly love it reminds me of my EQ2 druid even thou makes boxing harder it is LOTS of fun) but it is not fun to be medding so much after hard fights, even when you have JB+mask of hunter+WoN+sight of brilliance still my mana was going fast during a Dmap.
-Heal crit+items(cap at 10% like critical strikes, that and AAs should help some)
-less mana consuption for the HoTs
-add 2 more lesser HoTs a druid can stack back to back but without that mana consumption that kills.
It is fun when you are casting heals back to back(I extreamly love it reminds me of my EQ2 druid even thou makes boxing harder it is LOTS of fun) but it is not fun to be medding so much after hard fights, even when you have JB+mask of hunter+WoN+sight of brilliance still my mana was going fast during a Dmap.
TheRealDrizzl
Dalayan Adventurer
Crit heal items do exist. Also, I don't see a need for more HoTs then there are now. Druids are much better healers now possibly even a little to powerful, but at least you can run more then one druid in a raid or have a druid in 6man earlier then they previously could have. I love the changes.
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I agree with Driizz. (Yes, kill me now.) But I'm now able to keep up in good xp grind groups in areas where we (druids) were just pretty much relegated to backup healer spots. Clerics can still grind out XP groups for hours and not go OOM, whereas I find that I'm still having to med after a good amount of time, much less than I had to before the HoTs were implemented, but I still need more med breaks than a similarly geared cleric. And that's fine, that's the way it should be. But I can now main heal a lot more content, more effectively, than I could before, and I think that was the point of the change.
I understand the cleric frustration of their HoTs not being as useful on raids, but their main healing line is much more useful than ours (big heals, gheals, etc.) and so they have that to fixate on in raids, because on raid mobs the druid HoTs, even stacked, are still just a buffer. If the tanks (even big tanks) aren't kept up with big heals and quick heals, it's still just a few seconds until they're dead.
I play a LOT, and love my druid, and I frankly think the changes are wonderful. I was already becoming frustrated, pre-HoTs, that it was becoming increasingly hard to find higher end xp groups because only clerics were wanted. I was beginning to accept that there were 6man spots that I just wasn't going to ever get because "druids can't handle it." And that sucked. We're still not the best healers out there, a good cleric can outheal a good druid all day, all things being equal, but we're not anywhere near as unnecessary as we were, which was the point of the change.
I know that there are some high end druids out there with tons of FT and a 7k+ mana pool that can just keep relic and ancient HoT on a tank all day long and then the HoTs seem overpowered, but that's a small percentage of the number of druids out there. I am at just below 6k mana with FT5 and I know that if I tried to keep both going on a tank, I would be OOM in 5 minutes. Healing like that let's most of us get the tank through a named, but it isn't something that the vast majority of us can afford (mana-wise) to do constantly or we'd be kicked from the group for a cleric that won't be constantly oom.
It's like a t9 or 10 wizard that can just do insane dps on a raid mob over 5 minutes and then saying they're overpowered. But if you look at a t1 wizard, they can't do the same kind of dps and they can't just cast and cast through the entire encounter without going OOM.
It's got to be remembered that a lot of the people chiming in are people who are at the level where they're plus/minusing everything because they're already on the higher tiers and have a mana pool sometimes twice as large as the majority of players their class. So while a druid who's t9-t10 and has capped FT, maxed heal crits, maxed healing inc, and heal % increase AAs, tomes, and gear might be overpowered with the HoTs, all those druids that are working their way from their first HoT through to try to reach that elite level, aren't seeing those kinds of numbers and that kind of mana efficiency.
Just something to remember.
I understand the cleric frustration of their HoTs not being as useful on raids, but their main healing line is much more useful than ours (big heals, gheals, etc.) and so they have that to fixate on in raids, because on raid mobs the druid HoTs, even stacked, are still just a buffer. If the tanks (even big tanks) aren't kept up with big heals and quick heals, it's still just a few seconds until they're dead.
I play a LOT, and love my druid, and I frankly think the changes are wonderful. I was already becoming frustrated, pre-HoTs, that it was becoming increasingly hard to find higher end xp groups because only clerics were wanted. I was beginning to accept that there were 6man spots that I just wasn't going to ever get because "druids can't handle it." And that sucked. We're still not the best healers out there, a good cleric can outheal a good druid all day, all things being equal, but we're not anywhere near as unnecessary as we were, which was the point of the change.
I know that there are some high end druids out there with tons of FT and a 7k+ mana pool that can just keep relic and ancient HoT on a tank all day long and then the HoTs seem overpowered, but that's a small percentage of the number of druids out there. I am at just below 6k mana with FT5 and I know that if I tried to keep both going on a tank, I would be OOM in 5 minutes. Healing like that let's most of us get the tank through a named, but it isn't something that the vast majority of us can afford (mana-wise) to do constantly or we'd be kicked from the group for a cleric that won't be constantly oom.
It's like a t9 or 10 wizard that can just do insane dps on a raid mob over 5 minutes and then saying they're overpowered. But if you look at a t1 wizard, they can't do the same kind of dps and they can't just cast and cast through the entire encounter without going OOM.
It's got to be remembered that a lot of the people chiming in are people who are at the level where they're plus/minusing everything because they're already on the higher tiers and have a mana pool sometimes twice as large as the majority of players their class. So while a druid who's t9-t10 and has capped FT, maxed heal crits, maxed healing inc, and heal % increase AAs, tomes, and gear might be overpowered with the HoTs, all those druids that are working their way from their first HoT through to try to reach that elite level, aren't seeing those kinds of numbers and that kind of mana efficiency.
Just something to remember.
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Salarus
Dalayan Master
This post is straight up wrong.
First, druids could heal for longer durations than clerics, and in xp groups were not back up healers. Hell, I did, and still usually do, prefer a druid to a cleric in xp groups any day of the week for their utiltiy so long as they are are on tier. If you can't find "higher end" xp groups, it's probably not because people want a cleric, so much as it is that you're not geared/charmed/tomed enough for what the people want to do. For instance, your ft5 6k I would tell to go to hell if you wanted to come main heal my BQ group. I would say the exact same thing to a 6k ft5 cleric.
Second, on lots of raid trash, and hell, even on some raid encoutners and bosses, double hots are more than enough to keep the tank up. The hot stacking issue is annoying, and I personally would like to see it ancient hot as ancient heal again partically so cleric hots are useful, but also because I simply don't think the druid pathces do quite enough (although, if this alleged heal buff is coming that would fix that seconid part.)
Third, I haven't done a ton of 6 man, but Raoden and Shaltang (pre druid change) healed Salarus for MK. From what i'm told, the harder 6 man stuff you really did need a cleric, but for your tier (cmal and cata) you really don't need a cleric, ever, over a druid.
Comparing the dps of a t1 to a t10 wizard has nothing to do with anything. A t1 wizard will dps the shit out of a t1 target. A t10 wizard will do the same to a t10 target. a t1 druid will heal just fine on a t1 target, a t10 druid will heal just fine on a t10 target. What is your point here?
In the last part you're pretty much saying it doens't matter that druids might be overpowered since its only a small percentage of people playing them that are overpowered? I personally don't think they are OP on raids. You writing that made me laugh pretty hard though.
aside from those things, i feel the same
I felt the change to druids was not to nerf one area of their healing and buff another. Druids were lacking in efficiency. HoTs rectified this to some degree, but now a druid's direct healing capability has become awful. In many situations this nullifies the druid's newfound efficiency due to the fact you cannot afford to cast TWO long cast time HoTs. Pre-change a druid found himself spending most of his time casting, and this would destroy any ability to dps or be of any utility besides spamming big/quick heals. Now that they have to spend most of their time casting hots, I see the same issue. Not to mention, you have no ability to catch up in healing if you're hots are not enough, if you don't have the runic heal.
The gist of my post is that I don't feel this big of a nerf to druid's direct healing was all that necessary. Their direct healing was not very powerful to begin with, and in many 6 man and raid situations a druid will find himself falling behind, where pre nerf they were actually able to keep up.
The gist of my post is that I don't feel this big of a nerf to druid's direct healing was all that necessary. Their direct healing was not very powerful to begin with, and in many 6 man and raid situations a druid will find himself falling behind, where pre nerf they were actually able to keep up.
You can definitely run more than 1 druid in a raid, we do it all the time. You either have each druid run 1 hot on the tank, or put each druid on a seperate tank. Then you have ghots for 2 different groups, and, Cascading Vim, which is good situationally.
My biggest complaint is the lack of a viable quick heal now. Chloroshock is awful. I'd be happy if we got somethign else. Hell, even make it our Runic 2. That'd be fine with me. As it stands, Druids are on track to being able to heal some of the things that were exclusively Cleric only in 6 mans. We're just short the quick heal to really give us any sort of emergency healing now.
My biggest complaint is the lack of a viable quick heal now. Chloroshock is awful. I'd be happy if we got somethign else. Hell, even make it our Runic 2. That'd be fine with me. As it stands, Druids are on track to being able to heal some of the things that were exclusively Cleric only in 6 mans. We're just short the quick heal to really give us any sort of emergency healing now.
TheRealDrizzl
Dalayan Adventurer
I was referring to more then 1 druid on a raid, pre-change. At that point you'd want 3 cleric's, 1 shm, 1 druid ideally. Unless you really needed extra healing power then maybe run a 2nd druid or shm.
The cast time thing is kinda of an issue imo. If we could get the HoT cast times a lil lower that would be tremendous. IDK maybe tone down the healing they do just a little to compensate. If the cast times on the HoTs were a decent bit shorter, then imo the size of both the quick and big heals would be just fine.
The cast time thing is kinda of an issue imo. If we could get the HoT cast times a lil lower that would be tremendous. IDK maybe tone down the healing they do just a little to compensate. If the cast times on the HoTs were a decent bit shorter, then imo the size of both the quick and big heals would be just fine.
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my druid box only lost about 300 hp's worth of healing on her fast and long cast heals. considering the efficiency that the hots offer her i feel this is an even trade-off. am i missing something? is 300 hp's really that big of a difference? i mean, i never expect to use those heals in a reapeated manner so i guess i really don't see what the issue is.
Nuvian
Nuvian
Sadly, in a lot of situations, it can be. Our quick heal is what is holding us back from being able to be taken to a lot of 6 mans. Then, on a fair amount of raid counters, at least at the upper tier, our long cast group heal will just end up with people getting killed. Even while rolling group hots, you really dont have enough time. Currently, non crit, my quick heal is doing 1983. Mind you this is with codex of power 4 nearly complete, so it can stand to be increased another 4% from 5. This is compared to a Guktore's quick heal of 3443. An extra thousand makes a world of difference.
With all our healing being backloaded in hots, we may be very efficient, but we dont have the tools to make quick saves. A cleric can drop LoEs that will heal Fuwok for his entire hp bar, and quick heals that will crit for nearly 7k. We are just flat out lacking in the direct heal department since these changes, and I would almost be willing to sacrifice our big heal for an improved quick heal, based on the current 6 man and raid content.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
Also 300 base + HI 5 + 20% from tomes + healing adept = 420 ?
then crit = 840
Things that can also add like freeport shield, ikkish neck, think there is a charm as well that adds to healing.
I could see this being a fairly sizeable difference.
I used HI 5 because it is fairly easy to get for a numbers standpoint and not everyone will be raiding hardcore to get HI 7 or 8 which will make even a larger difference.
then crit = 840
Things that can also add like freeport shield, ikkish neck, think there is a charm as well that adds to healing.
I could see this being a fairly sizeable difference.
I used HI 5 because it is fairly easy to get for a numbers standpoint and not everyone will be raiding hardcore to get HI 7 or 8 which will make even a larger difference.
jew_nose_it
Dalayan Master
you shouldn't compare yourself to a cleric like guktore...taht said you still have valid points. Druids as they stand have no big heal/quick heal to make saves on toons who are getting smacked around. They got even better for XPing but in raids and 6mans they still need a strong single target healer to make it work. Also without runic heal or the group HoT they are terrible group healers still.
Thade
DINOSAUR THADE
Uh because its hard to find a cleric who has codex 4 at 90% to ask numbers? Really though, the only difference is 4% from an extra tome, thats the only real heal modification differences.
Ad quite frankly, the runic heal is very situational, it has like 35 range after mods, takes insane amounts of mana, and can actually pull aggro off a mob that's been tanked by a warrior for 20% of its hp. Essentially, even running ghots, quick heals arent usually going to cut it, and Vim isn't usable in a lot of situations.
jew_nose_it
Dalayan Master
Lol yeah nm I guess none of those other tomes guktore has done actually increase how much he heals for 
narmarratuk
Dalayan Adventurer
to make all that simple, Enchanter grabs agro with my druid's new heals=enchanter dead, before old heals=enchanter alive. This is one problem I did noticed while doing maps however Hots that kick in fast without that huge delay or fast heals may be ideal and should not be runic because heck that means that you have to work your way up until you can actually be of use and that enchanter stops dying.(now I used Chanter as a sample but other fragile classes can replace that). there.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
Why would you not just quick heal your enc or slap a hot on him before you think he's going to get aggro?